Sinterklaas And Zwarte Piet - Racism?

[GommeInc]

It's not racist. Nothing about them is racist. Children calling other children Zwarte Piet are racist, not the thing they are being called. It's like going up to someone from Kenya and saying "You're a Zimbabwean" which apparently means Zimbabweans are racist. Calling someone from Kenya a Zimbabwean isn't racist - it's ignorant, racisms forgotten cousin twice removed. It simply doesn't make sense and if anything supports the argument that people really don't know what racism is and use it lazily as an excuse without really understanding what it is.

If anything it's out of date, but that's about it. Giving children gifts isn't a social negative. If the Zwarte Piets were rushing down chimneys having sex with the children insinuating they're child rapists then it would be racist as it is giving a negative image of black people - suggesting white people obey the law and aren't child rapists. But no, they're doing something positive. It's like going up to a black person who is good at basketball and saying "Why are you people good at basketball?" The intentions behind the question are positive - the only socially inept people to get offended are those who really shouldn't be let outside for fear of being offended or people trying to make a case out of nothing.

So in short - no they're not racist. If anything they're out of date. The intentions are good - they are Santa's helpers spreading joy to children of all race, creed and background. Nothing is wrong with that.

[The Don]

It's not racist. Nothing about them is racist. Children calling other children Zwarte Piet are racist, not the thing they are being called. It's like going up to someone from Kenya and saying "You're a Zimbabwean" which apparently means Zimbabweans are racist. Calling someone from Kenya a Zimbabwean isn't racist - it's ignorant, racisms forgotten cousin twice removed. It simply doesn't make sense and if anything supports the argument that people really don't know what racism is and use it lazily as an excuse without really understanding what it is.

If anything it's out of date, but that's about it. Giving children gifts isn't a social negative. If the Zwarte Piets were rushing down chimneys having sex with the children insinuating they're child rapists then it would be racist as it is giving a negative image of black people - suggesting white people obey the law and aren't child rapists. But no, they're doing something positive. It's like going up to a black person who is good at basketball and saying "Why are you people good at basketball?" The intentions behind the question are positive - the only socially inept people to get offended are those who really shouldn't be let outside for fear of being offended or people trying to make a case out of nothing.

So in short - no they're not racist. If anything they're out of date. The intentions are good - they are Santa's helpers spreading joy to children of all race, creed and background. Nothing is wrong with that.

What do you call dressing up with exaggerated features of black people then? ie huge red lips and coal black skin

[GommeInc]

What do you call dressing up with exaggerated features of black people then? ie huge red lips and coal black skin

Stupid

Secondly, do all black people have huge red lips and coal black skin? If you make the connection you yourself are probably racist. The thing that you're complaining about is only racist if it makes sweeping statements and/or promotes national/white superiority and demotes black culture and/or other nationalities - often mocking them. Giving presents isn't racial and from what I've been told by French, Belgian and Dutch friends the Zwarte Piets are not mocked not trying to promote that white people are better. Heck, if anything it just shows Saint Nicolas is fat and lazy and does no work while they are busy meeting children and doing all the good things. Hardly racist.

[The Don]

Stupid

Secondly, do all black people have huge red lips and coal black skin? If you make the connection you yourself are probably racist. The thing that you're complaining about is only racist if it makes sweeping statements and/or promotes national/white superiority and demotes black culture and/or other nationalities - often mocking them. Giving presents isn't racial and from what I've been told by French, Belgian and Dutch friends the Zwarte Piets are not mocked not trying to promote that white people are better. Heck, if anything it just shows Saint Nicolas is fat and lazy and does no work while they are busy meeting children and doing all the good things. Hardly racist.

No hence why i listed them as examples of EXAGGERATED features which are traditionally associated with blackface and are used heavily when people dress up as Zwarte Piets....

[GommeInc]

No hence why i listed them as examples of EXAGGERATED features which are traditionally associated with blackface and are used heavily when people dress up as Zwarte Piets....

What on earth is blackface and how does that make Zwarte Piets racist? Also, Zwarte Piet doesn't or shouldn't have exaggerated features - just black make-up and red lipstick. In fact, they appear to just wear red lipstick covering their lips rather than going all out - like Pantomime Dames and actual exaggerated lips. Racism is again about some sort of superiority over another race and putting down said race. Giving out presents is hardly putting down that race.

[The Don]

What on earth is blackface and how does that make Zwarte Piets racist? Also, Zwarte Piet doesn't or shouldn't have exaggerated features - just black make-up and red lipstick. In fact, they appear to just wear red lipstick covering their lips rather than going all out - like Pantomime Dames and actual exaggerated lips. Racism is again about some sort of superiority over another race and putting down said race. Giving out presents is hardly putting down that race.

Do you honestly not know what blackface is? Do you really not get how coal black skin and bright red lips are exaggerated features of black people?

By your definition of racism this picture isn't racist (even though it clearly is)

[GommeInc]

Do you honestly not know what blackface is? Do you really not get how coal black skin and bright red lips are exaggerated features of black people?

By your definition of racism this picture isn't racist (even though it clearly is)

You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

The tradition itself isn't racist by any definition - it's an odd, (perhaps) outdated tradition much like Santa in general who is perceived as a white Finnish gentleman of stout girth when in reality he was Greek (or Turkish as he would be now), didn't wear red woolly clothing or probably know what a reindeer was. If anything modern day Christmas has ruined him with Coca Cola red colouring (I think he was either meant to be gold or green), eastern European whiteness and very little charity to children when he traditionally was meant to be charitable in general. Toys aren't useful in the grand scheme of things.

If anything, you should be arguing the whole Santa Claus thing is pretty creepy and has been absorbed by capitalist white culture. Us whites have a thing for stealing Turkish/Greek people and making them white.

[The Don]

You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

The tradition itself isn't racist by any definition - it's an odd, (perhaps) outdated tradition much like Santa in general who is perceived as a white Finnish gentleman of stout girth when in reality he was Greek (or Turkish as he would be now), didn't wear red woolly clothing or probably know what a reindeer was. If anything modern day Christmas has ruined him with Coca Cola red colouring (I think he was either meant to be gold or green), eastern European whiteness and very little charity to children when he traditionally was meant to be charitable in general. Toys aren't useful in the grand scheme of things.

If anything, you should be arguing the whole Santa Claus thing is pretty creepy and has been absorbed by capitalist white culture. Us whites have a thing for stealing Turkish/Greek people and making them white.

Not sure why you keep banging on about little kids calling each other names? the whole debate this thread is about is whether dressing up as zwarte piet is racist. If you don't think that image I posted is racist then there's literally no point in us continuing this discussion because clearly we have two different ideas as to what racism is.

[GommeInc]

Not sure why you keep banging on about little kids calling each other names? the whole debate this thread is about is whether dressing up as zwarte piet is racist. If you don't think that image I posted is racist then there's literally no point in us continuing this discussion because clearly we have two different ideas as to what racism is.

Because it's an issue that has arisen. Children have been calling black children Zwarte Piet according to one member.

Racism is pretty precise, although I have to admit Golliwogs are a grey area. I just label them as creepy and a bit stupid.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

Of course he doesn't understand what racism is, hence why he throws it around like confetti whenever he can. He's just another self-hating soppy westerner who is terrified of causing offence. Ironically, the complaints of offence caused by in large usually come from the likes of The Don and white liberal politicians rather than the supposed discriminated against groups anyway.

The truth is that these are crude costumes (not professional) and they seek to replicate common body features of black people: that they have larger lips than whites do. Just as if you wanted to dress up as a Han Chinaman you'd seek to have your eyes made smaller, or as a Red Indian your skin coloured in a reddish tint. That's not discrimination or offence, that's just a ******* costume lmao. The quote in my signature is very apt if you ask me.