iPhone - Good idea? [Closes 10/02/07]

[---MAD---]

Many of you have heard that Apple will be releasing its first mobile phone sometime in June.

Do you think this is a good idea or do you believe apple should stick to the computer / music segments of the market?

[benjamin]

stick to the computer & music side of the market imo.

[cocaine]

Terrible.

Overpriced and ugly.

[Rozi]

Say hello to iWorld. I don't mind the phone but I think they should stick to what they know.

[Lysine]

The IPhone looks horribe and is overpriced

[GommeInc]

I don't understand the question. iPhone - Good idea? You can't say it is a bad idea, yet you cannot say it is a good idea? Strange debate, so I will just talk about why I think it is a bad idea:

1. Hardly a phone. A PDA Mp3 Player with a phone maybe.
2. Apple are just trying to turn into a huge conglomerate (business that does everything I think). I don't want them to become more arrogant and believe they're the best.

[---MAD---]

I don't understand the question. iPhone - Good idea? You can't say it is a bad idea, yet you cannot say it is a good idea? Strange debate, so I will just talk about why I think it is a bad idea:

1. Hardly a phone. A PDA Mp3 Player with a phone maybe.
2. Apple are just trying to turn into a huge conglomerate (business that does everything I think). I don't want them to become more arrogant and believe they're the best.
Yeah true. They are trying to do all sorts of things which they can't manage (imo).

They are also pricing their products a bit too high for their target market (which I am guessing is young adults / teenagers).

[Swastika]

Its a great idea if;
It obviously works
Its easily adaptable
And it makes money.

Roll in iWorld.

[Stephen!]

What tarrif will they be on?

iMobile ?

[letisix]

Yeh, it's Nice (I think)
But Apple just took it a little to Far- They should of kept to computers-Music

[Mrs.McCall]

I like it and I'd buy it. I think we're about to enter an age where apple do rule the whole market. They'll be branching out to televisions, cable tv (like sky) etc I think.

I liked the look of the iPhone and iWould definatly buy it!

[Mr.Sam]

I like the fully touch screen theme, but my mobile has built in itunes, so it basically has a built in ipod anyway..

[Oni]

I like the fully touch screen theme, but my mobile has built in itunes, so it basically has a built in ipod anyway..
You got Moto Rokr? Because mines got itunes too.
Good idea I belive you say stick at what theyre good at well theyre good at pcs and its like a pda so its practically a mini pc and ipod combined.

[Ramones]

i think it's a great idea, instead of carrying an ipod and phone. i don't see why people are saying it's bad and that they should stick to music and pc's? you can hardly say it's going to be a rubbish phone because they've never made a phone before. i do agree it's to over priced at like £400ish is it going to be? but every company in the world is expanding and coming up with ideas i don't see whats wrong with it

[london]

how much is it going to be?

& it's a good idea. (imo).

[Andeeh]

I Agree They Taken It To Far, But Maybe They Feel It Will Be A Way To Get More Money...

[Mrs.McCall]

Priced at £200-400 approx.

America gets it in June, we have to wait till Oct-Dec < In time for Xmas tho.

[Papershop]

technology just keeps on advancing. This is the best idea theyve came up with yet. Bravo to them

[Frodo13.]

I personally think its a great idea. Lets face it, most people have a ipod, and Macs have become extreamly popular, therefore Apple need to come up with a new product before they go into decline.

Yup, it is quite high priced if it comes in at £400, but if its in the £200 price range, I think that is quite resonable for all of its features. May possibley end up on my Xmas list for 07, never know!

[Invent]

apple.com/iphone

I think that is sexy

[Grindie]

Hello?

Why the hell would it be a bad idea, if anyone's going to make a phone for the future then it's going to be Apple. They've practically conquered the music market now it looks like they're planning take over the phone industry and I have nothing against it

[summer]

no debate neccessary. if it wasn't a good idea then there wouldn't be so many potential buyers or media acclaim.

[shiver]

I think it's a good idea ;) £200 is reasonable for a phone I think. I payed £250 for my K800i (:$) I may consider getting one ;}

[summer]

&#163;200-&#163;250 for a phone with 4gb memory INBUILT is very good value. most new phones nowadays are about that price, but don't have half the features and normally only about 100mb inbuilt memory at the most, forcing you to fork out &#163;50 ish for a memory stick.

[Papershop]

its price is $499 for a 4gb, which is about &#163;250-300
and $599 for a 8gb, which is abouut &#163;300-350

[ColyTom]

I've seen some possible pictures of what it may look like and I like it. I may buy one but I'd have to find out what the other features are first.

[DaveTaylor]

they plan to instead of realeasing a new generation of the phone every time they designed it bigger due to the fact they will just upgrade the firmware on the phone itself

[dirrty]

i dont care tbh.

too expensive so i wont get one so apple can do what they want.

[Dan2nd]

Looks really cool I like them

[Fart]

Bad idea, there thinking to far ahead

[Pitch]

Shameful imo. They overcharge for ipods, and i would never even consider buying one of their products after the scandal that was uncovered. However, most markets nowadays are conquered by the over-priced, un-designed junk that people try to use as a status symbol. Point of a &#163;300 phone? To beat the jones's thats it, id rather spend &#163;100 or less, get it decent and then spend the rest on good times, or save it for my car (YAY!). Apple as a company are struggling, even with iPod, the mac isnt making enough so theyre trying to expand, which is understandable but pointless. They should just advertise iPod and iMac more, lower the prices, or build them in bigger bulk to lower prices. Its not as bad as windows terrible attempt at a phone/mp3, but it isnt far off. Nokia, siemens and whoever else are decent,, samsung, will catch on, undercut them on price and woohoo > another billion wasted.

[Oni]

Shameful imo. They overcharge for ipods, and i would never even consider buying one of their products after the scandal that was uncovered. However, most markets nowadays are conquered by the over-priced, un-designed junk that people try to use as a status symbol. Point of a £300 phone? To beat the jones's thats it, id rather spend £100 or less, get it decent and then spend the rest on good times, or save it for my car (YAY!). Apple as a company are struggling, even with iPod, the mac isnt making enough so theyre trying to expand, which is understandable but pointless. They should just advertise iPod and iMac more, lower the prices, or build them in bigger bulk to lower prices. Its not as bad as windows terrible attempt at a phone/mp3, but it isnt far off. Nokia, siemens and whoever else are decent,, samsung, will catch on, undercut them on price and woohoo > another billion wasted.
No they arent theyre doing much better than they were. I want appleTv too lol.

[Metric.]

yahhh, my contract is up in may.

[Sony.Com]

I think they should.

We know its going to look cool which is half the battle there.

And with Apple's high quality we know its going to be good.

[GommeInc]

High quality? I wouldn't say so. Take these 3 companies, Creative, Apple and Sony. Guess which had the highest sound quality? Sony. The Sony MP3 player has better sound quality than both. Creative comes second and iPod last. The Apple iPods sound quality is best described as tinny at best.

The Mac isn't high quality, high quality would be using an open system OS, but they refuse to because it is obvious it would be filled with bugs.

The only thing high quality is their over inflated ego and arrogance.

I can just see the iPhone being just another "Apple Brand," not something to revolutionise communications. It is an iPod with a phone built in.

[RedStratocas]

They're expanding their market way too fast. You cant go from computers to music to phones in a span of 6 years.

If it works (big if), itll be decent. It probably will be an accident waiting to happen, but it'll be decent. But I dont really see the point. Why combine 2 products that dont need combining? iPods are small, phones are small, you can easily fit them both in your pocket.

[Papershop]

if they want to stand in todays market, they need to think bigger than anyone else. thats all there doing, so dont put them down

[RedStratocas]

if they want to stand in todays market, they need to think bigger than anyone else. thats all there doing, so dont put them down

Bigger doesnt mean more. It means something better. Quality is greater than quantity.

[-Wolverine]

I think the iPhone is going to be like the PS3, an item that's a miss and over-priced, but everyone will want one because they're extremely hard to get.

As for the iPhone being a success, I can see that happening, I'm not sure about the quality of it, but i'm sure it'll be a success.

[BL!NKEY]

High quality? I wouldn't say so. Take these 3 companies, Creative, Apple and Sony. Guess which had the highest sound quality? Sony. The Sony MP3 player has better sound quality than both. Creative comes second and iPod last. The Apple iPods sound quality is best described as tinny at best.

The Mac isn't high quality, high quality would be using an open system OS, but they refuse to because it is obvious it would be filled with bugs.

The only thing high quality is their over inflated ego and arrogance.

I can just see the iPhone being just another "Apple Brand," not something to revolutionise communications. It is an iPod with a phone built in.

OS X is high quality because it is made as user friendly as possible. Macs are high quality. Look at the Mac Pro (http://www.apple.com/macpro/). You cant say that that is one heck of a computer.

Apple hardwear tends to be high quality and more expensive because of that.



They're expanding their market way too fast. You cant go from computers to music to phones in a span of 6 years.

If it works (big if), itll be decent. It probably will be an accident waiting to happen, but it'll be decent. But I dont really see the point. Why combine 2 products that dont need combining? iPods are small, phones are small, you can easily fit them both in your pocket.

Why not combine 2 products that could be combined. In the future all phones will have music on them. Who wants to have 2 different devices in a pocket if they only need one. The music pauses when you receive a phone call.



Bigger doesnt mean more. It means something better. Quality is greater than quantity.

That is why one really good iPhone is better then a normal phone and iPod.




My ideas.

I was looking foward to this phone but when I saw that it was only for cingular I knew I couldnt get it.

I am probably going to get like a chocolate which is a fine phone and I can use it untill the iPhone goes rev B without bugs and is with Verizon or unlocked.

[Shawnstra]

Its stupid. They just make a ugly phone, stick an 'i' to it, and think everyone would buy it. :rolleyes: People would follow blindly and buy it as they like the apple brand.

[blah blah blah]

Ugly, stupid. aint gonna buy it.:eusa_wall

[---MAD---]

Apple is getting sued over it now because of its name. Cisco owns the trade mark for the name and has done so since the year 2000.

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=2886771

I wonder whats next. What a bad start for its reputation.

[Seatherny]

Apple is getting sued over it now because of its name. Cisco owns the trade mark for the name and has done so since the year 2000.

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?p=2886771

I wonder whats next. What a bad start for its reputation.

Heard that in the news today.


Well the iPhone is just like a PDA, but better. I dont see why they shouldnt invent one? They are expanding their business and if one of their business fail, they can rely on another one of their business.

[---MAD---]

Heard that in the news today.


Well the iPhone is just like a PDA, but better. I dont see why they shouldnt invent one? They are expanding their business and if one of their business fail, they can rely on another one of their business.
Yeah true, but people believe they should stick to what Macs and ipods :).

[Browney]

WHAT?

Hold on, music on a phone is too advanced? Where have you been? We've had music on phones for years now. You can get MP3 player phones. Phones built to play music. I think it's a brilliant idea. I'm buying one.

[Seatherny]

Yeah true, but people believe they should stick to what Macs and ipods :).

It doesnt matter what people believe. I agree its over priced when its just like a PDA, but some people will still buy it.

No one thought anyone could compete with Microsoft .. but Apple are now arent they.

[Papershop]

It doesnt matter what people believe. I agree its over priced when its just like a PDA, but some people will still buy it.

No one thought anyone could compete with Microsoft .. but Apple are now arent they.

No not really, microsoft are way ahead, and that why apple are keen for new ideas so that they can try to get on top of the market.

[Seatherny]

No not really, microsoft are way ahead, and that why apple are keen for new ideas so that they can try to get on top of the market.

But Apple are slowly expanding. Like I said in my post above, iPhones, iTunes etc are there to help Apple.
If one business fails, Apple can rely on other businesses.

[micky.blue.eyes]

I'm not a fan of apple and I'm not going to buy any products of apple, but just because it's over prized it doesn't mean they should stick to what they're doing now.

Everything (everything good or better) is over prizes at the beginning, some noobs who want to have to latest of the latest will buy it, no matter what it costs, then when those people bought it, the price will drop.

I bet tons of people will buy it. :(

[HUGECOOL]

Is this even a debate? How would providing advancements in the cell phone industry be a bad thing? There is huge potentential for other companies as well, not just for Apple. The cell phone industry is a very fast-paced world, and other cell phone makers quickly assimilate any new technology. With these new features, other phone companies will be able to provide the same products for probably a cheaper price, and in turn, drive Apple's costs down as well. There is some new technology in the iPhone, but it's nothing to be 'wowed' about. The only thing Apple did was find a better solution to something that already existed, and they just happened to be the first to do so. Is that a bad thing?

The trouble is though that other companies will probably only try to be the iPhone and not surpass its capabilities. Which is what happened with the MP3 industry. Many companies tried imitating the iPod without improving on performance, so they kinda paved Apple's way to great success in the music industry. Because of this, the market is filled with all these crappy products that have very little of what consumers want. I'm not saying that every company or product is like this, but with most companies it's more of hit or miss, and if they miss, they pull. Apple tries to hit everytime with the FIRST product, making it less wasteful. Saying that the iPhone will flop because of the price is pretty stupid. Some of the first iPods cost around $500 and they sold by the truckloads.

And how just sticking 'to what they know' be a solution? If business worked like that, they wouldn't be able to expand and make more profit. Sure, there are those exclusive companies that will do just fine with only one industry, but when a general consumer electronics company like Apple or Sony doesn't expand, any financial issues it may face in the future can be the end of the company very quickly. But that should be common sense, in my opinion.

[samsaBEAR]

its a good idea, no doubt about that
its the praticality of it, i think they should have created a touchscreen iPod instead tbh
and they should've been more genourous with the memory, 4gb and 8gb? should at least have memory card support if they're gonna put small amounts of memory in it

[:Hazel]

Music tbh cause people have been slating the idea and its too expensive.

[HUGECOOL]

its a good idea, no doubt about that
its the praticality of it, i think they should have created a touchscreen iPod instead tbh
and they should've been more genourous with the memory, 4gb and 8gb? should at least have memory card support if they're gonna put small amounts of memory in it
Storage on the iPhone is flash-based, so bigger quantities of storage would just raise the price even more. Flash storage is faster and comsumes less power, so it was a good solution for the phone. But I agree, they should've had support for other flash storage.

[summer]

Music tbh cause people have been slating the idea and its too expensive.

it's not too expensive if you consider the prices of other phones on the market?

[BL!NKEY]

Yeah true, but people believe they should stick to what Macs and ipods :).

People said that when apple came out with the iPod. That they should just stick to computers. Look at iPods now. They made this rediculously (sp?) sweet phone and no one should say that they shouldnt enter the phone market because in a few years no one will have 3 devices in their hand (ipod, phone and pda.)

People will have one device and the iPhone is a possible choice one of these smart phones.


it's not too expensive if you consider the prices of other phones on the market?

exactally. It does more then most smart phones and is only a little bit more. But you would expect a high quality and expensive product from apple.

The iPod was a lot more expensive when it first came out. Then they greatly decreased in price and everyone has them.

[GommeInc]

People said that when apple came out with the iPod. That they should just stick to computers. Look at iPods now. They made this rediculously (sp?) sweet phone and no one should say that they shouldnt enter the phone market because in a few years no one will have 3 devices in their hand (ipod, phone and pda.)

People will have one device and the iPhone is a possible choice one of these smart phones.



exactally. It does more then most smart phones and is only a little bit more. But you would expect a high quality and expensive product from apple.

The iPod was a lot more expensive when it first came out. Then they greatly decreased in price and everyone has them.
As far as I see it, the iPhone will just be another brand of phone on the market, like the iPod was with music. The iPod is just a MP3 Player hybrid with it's own crappy format and prone to crashing, not all, but they do love it.

I noticed my friends Black iPod Nano he got for Christmas descided it didn't want to turn off when he held down the menu. I thought they fixed the bugs in the Mini? Strange it does the same.

Just because Apple Macs are user friendly doesn't mean they're great, they make them so user friendly because they hide their open source through this. You can't personalise a Mac like a good PC, you have to buy a special program for it while with a PC, you could make a program and personalise it at the same time.

In the end, Apple is still just another brand, with flaws and big-headed leaders behind them. I'm going to stick with proper brands like Creative Zen, which actually made the technology the iPod stole (scroll technology), and I will stay with a PC because they do not brag and lie incredibly badly in adverts. And I will continue to buy proper phones, not a "fresh" looking phone, glorified b a bigheaded company behind it.

For what you get from an iPod, you can get better from Sony or Creative, the two companies with better quality in their MP3 players that Apple only dream they had.

[BL!NKEY]

As far as I see it, the iPhone will just be another brand of phone on the market, like the iPod was with music. The iPod is just a MP3 Player hybrid with it's own crappy format and prone to crashing, not all, but they do love it.

The iPod was popular because of its easy interface and appeal. Of corse the iPhone is going to be another brand of phone because that is what it is. The iPod was another brand but it happened to sell a lot better then the rest.


I noticed my friends Black iPod Nano he got for Christmas descided it didn't want to turn off when he held down the menu. I thought they fixed the bugs in the Mini? Strange it does the same.

Maybe because holding down the menu button turns on the back light.

If he held down the Pause/play button then it would turn off.


Just because Apple Macs are user friendly doesn't mean they're great, they make them so user friendly because they hide their open source through this. You can't personalise a Mac like a good PC, you have to buy a special program for it while with a PC, you could make a program and personalise it at the same time.

Most special specialized programs for macs interface can be downloaded for free off the internet. No need to buy them. But what personlaization would someone want to do to their mac? Maybe desktop and icons which you dont need another program for. The interface is already good looking.


In the end, Apple is still just another brand, with flaws and big-headed leaders behind them. I'm going to stick with proper brands like Creative Zen, which actually made the technology the iPod stole (scroll technology), and I will stay with a PC because they do not brag and lie incredibly badly in adverts. And I will continue to buy proper phones, not a "fresh" looking phone, glorified b a bigheaded company behind it.

That is all oppinions that the Creative Zen is more "proper" then iPod and Apple stole all of its ideas from Creative. If they actually so much technology then Creative would sue Apple and win a lot of money.


For what you get from an iPod, you can get better from Sony or Creative, the two companies with better quality in their MP3 players that Apple only dream they had.

My iPod is great quality. I Have had it for over 4 years and it still works.

[GommeInc]

The iPod was popular because of its easy interface and appeal. Of corse the iPhone is going to be another brand of phone because that is what it is. The iPod was another brand but it happened to sell a lot better then the rest.
You obviously didn't catch my drift, I meant it won't be anything special or revolutionary. Not it's own seperate, unique brand, better than all the rest. It will jut be an option for people to buy, not the No.1 thing to get.


Maybe because holding down the menu button turns on the back light.

If he held down the Pause/play button then it would turn off.
It was whatever button was at the bottom, I never paid attention as I was driving at the time. I imagined it was the Menu button because it seemed like it was that button at the time (I don't really remember things like that).



Most special specialized programs for macs interface can be downloaded for free off the internet. No need to buy them. But what personlaization would someone want to do to their mac? Maybe desktop and icons which you dont need another program for. The interface is already good looking.
I meant for out of personal use. Companies like to personalise their systems, with special programs that can be used as a Database for example, which don't neccessarily connect to the internet, which I am guessing would not get them a good program unless they took the effort of downloading it onto a memory stick.

With a computer, companies can use personalised programs to do their services, like O2 has Windows for their phone database amongst other companies. I've only ever seen a Mac used at the National Portrait Gallery in London, but they don't exactly need much and the slideshow program used did the job enough.


That is all oppinions that the Creative Zen is more "proper" then iPod and Apple stole all of its ideas from Creative. If they actually so much technology then Creative would sue Apple and win a lot of money.
Considering Creative got rated second out of 3 companies for quality, style etc. It kinda is fact. iPod was third due to tinny quality, a terrible sound system which cannot predict how the music should sound like, and it uses a format that isn't high quality.

Sony came first out of Creative and Apple. I don't have the Sony MP3 player so I can't exactly say I love Creative and think they should be the best when it was recorded that Sony was better.


My iPod is great quality. I Have had it for over 4 years and it still works.
Whether it works or not isn't the question. It also depends on what you consider is good quality.

[BL!NKEY]

You obviously didn't catch my drift, I meant it won't be anything special or revolutionary. Not it's own seperate, unique brand, better than all the rest. It will jut be an option for people to buy, not the No.1 thing to get.


It was whatever button was at the bottom, I never paid attention as I was driving at the time. I imagined it was the Menu button because it seemed like it was that button at the time (I don't really remember things like that).


I meant for out of personal use. Companies like to personalise their systems, with special programs that can be used as a Database for example, which don't neccessarily connect to the internet, which I am guessing would not get them a good program unless they took the effort of downloading it onto a memory stick.

With a computer, companies can use personalised programs to do their services, like O2 has Windows for their phone database amongst other companies. I've only ever seen a Mac used at the National Portrait Gallery in London, but they don't exactly need much and the slideshow program used did the job enough.


Considering Creative got rated second out of 3 companies for quality, style etc. It kinda is fact. iPod was third due to tinny quality, a terrible sound system which cannot predict how the music should sound like, and it uses a format that isn't high quality.

Sony came first out of Creative and Apple. I don't have the Sony MP3 player so I can't exactly say I love Creative and think they should be the best when it was recorded that Sony was better.


Whether it works or not isn't the question. It also depends on what you consider is good quality.

I do agree that Windows are better for most companies dealing with large databases. But this thread is about iPhones and we are kind of getting off topic.

Here is a cool video I found that shows a lot of stuff the iPod can and cant do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW7or1TuFk

for anyone who doesnt know about it and wants to be in the debate I would recomend watching that video first to get a back ground.

Looks cool to me. Would be funny if in the future it was a huge hit and everyone had iPhones and we looked back at this thread.

[CrazyCali]

For me. I like the phone, but yea it is overpriced. If they can get no one to come in to buy it then maybe they will lower prices. With that money you can get so much more like a PS3 or a wii and something else lol. But I do like the design of it. But maybe we should give them a chance to expand like other products.

[Frodo13.]

Shameful imo. They overcharge for ipods, and i would never even consider buying one of their products after the scandal that was uncovered. However, most markets nowadays are conquered by the over-priced, un-designed junk that people try to use as a status symbol. Point of a £300 phone? To beat the jones's thats it, id rather spend £100 or less, get it decent and then spend the rest on good times, or save it for my car (YAY!). Apple as a company are struggling, even with iPod, the mac isnt making enough so theyre trying to expand, which is understandable but pointless. They should just advertise iPod and iMac more, lower the prices, or build them in bigger bulk to lower prices. Its not as bad as windows terrible attempt at a phone/mp3, but it isnt far off. Nokia, siemens and whoever else are decent,, samsung, will catch on, undercut them on price and woohoo > another billion wasted.

100% disagree. Apple make the most popular mp3 player in the world, and Im sure most people agree? You can get ipods for less then £90 and its peoples choise if they want the cheaper ipod, with less song, or the expensive ones for more songs

OK, so Microsoft are the dominate ones for computers, but you can't say that Mac is a failure. They are extreamly popular for office work and graphic design...where Microsoft is more home use.

For a business to survive, it needs to expand its market mix, which basiclly means increase its number of products. Eventually, people will get bored of ipods and Macs. This happens with any product and it is what you call the decline stage of what is called the product life cycle. All Apple simply need to do is create a new product, which is what they are doing arnt they?

And as for the bit where Apple is strugling, a company with a Revenue of $19.3 billion is not about to be put into the ground any time soon...

Apple are simply jumping on the waggon of the mobile comunications market. They may not dominate it, but I think they will be a major player in that market...afterall, it is Apple!

[GommeInc]

I do agree that Windows are better for most companies dealing with large databases. But this thread is about iPhones and we are kind of getting off topic.

Here is a cool video I found that shows a lot of stuff the iPod can and cant do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW7or1TuFk

for anyone who doesnt know about it and wants to be in the debate I would recomend watching that video first to get a back ground.

Looks cool to me. Would be funny if in the future it was a huge hit and everyone had iPhones and we looked back at this thread.
In that video they make it seem that they've never had e-mail, contact or internet combo phones...

Wow, you're live on the internet... They've been able to do that for years. They make it seem like it's a new thing... The only impressive thing about it is the touchscreen capabilities? They've had MP3 players in phones for a few years now, not to mention internet, e-mail etc.

[^.^]

I think Apple have done a great job with their Ipod series includin the original,the ipod nano, the ipod video their ipod shuffle wasnt a good idea in my opinion but ive looked at the phones specification a nice 2mega pixel camera, touch sensitive screen and fast easy access to the internet makes this a good mobile in my opinion, im hoping they provide a stylus and a better screen different from the ipod nano im asking for this because the ipod nano screen scratches to easily unless you have your own case any ipod nano owner would agree with me there lol. I think this is a great phone overall maybe a tiny bit over priced but probably not intended for the younger audience will probably be used as a business phone as shown on the ipod nano site. You may say look at the price so what they have the freedom to sell their products for what they want and ive had no problems with an apple product in the past...

[Papershop]

to be quite fair, the first to advance from the usually mobile phone is logically the company who will succeed better. Because any other phones produced which are "like" the new iphone, will be seen as just cheap rip offs.

[Mentor]

to be quite fair, the first to advance from the usually mobile phone is logically the company who will succeed better. Because any other phones produced which are "like" the new iphone, will be seen as just cheap rip offs.

other than touchscreen the iphone is pretty much inferior to normal phones you could have got a few years back, never lown what you can get now "/ And thats not even talking about the top of the range ones with the iphone aria prices "/

[HUGECOOL]

In that video they make it seem that they've never had e-mail, contact or internet combo phones...

Wow, you're live on the internet... They've been able to do that for years. They make it seem like it's a new thing... The only impressive thing about it is the touchscreen capabilities? They've had MP3 players in phones for a few years now, not to mention internet, e-mail etc.
Yes, these capabilities have been on mobile devices for quite a while now, but the iPhone improves on areas where no improvement had been made. For example, the internet browser. Although Internet connectivity has been possible, the actual experience is limited. The iPhone uses a mobile port of the Safari browser which allows the user to access the Internet in its entirety, not some shrunken down version of websites. The browser also allows for multiple website browsing. Kinda like having tabs on your mobile browser. As far as MP3 goes, the iPhone is basically a widescreen iPod when the iPod functionality is enabled. Yes, other phones have had mp3-playing capabilities before, but again, the support was limited while having a full featured iPod on the phone will only improve the experience. The e-mail function on the iPhone is a desktop-class e-mail client which makes for improved e-mail capabilities on a mobile device. They're not making it seem like these things are new, but showing how their product can do these things (and more) in a more user-friendly fashion.

[Mentor]

Yes, these capabilities have been on mobile devices for quite a while now, but the iPhone improves on areas where no improvement had been made. For example, the internet browser. Although Internet connectivity has been possible, the actual experience is limited. The iPhone uses a mobile port of the Safari browser which allows the user to access the Internet in its entirety, not some shrunken down version of websites.
And most mobile phones use opera, which is also a full internet browser, theres also a version of firefox(cant remember project code name) you can install on to them if you felt like it o.0


The browser also allows for multiple website browsing. Kinda like having tabs on your mobile browser.
Operas had tabs way before any other browser, sames true one the phones :rolleyes:

As far as MP3 goes, the iPhone is basically a widescreen iPod when the iPod functionality is enabled. Yes, other phones have had mp3-playing capabilities before, but again, the support was limited while having a full featured iPod on the phone will only improve the experience. In what way, sony phones run the walkman software which is superior to ipods in compatablty and format useage anyway?

The e-mail function on the iPhone is a desktop-class e-mail client which makes for improved e-mail capabilities on a mobile device. normal phones will even run gmail, way better than any apple crap, and thats compairng phone gmail to actual apple email apps.

They're not making it seem like these things are new, but showing how their product can do these things (and more) in a more user-friendly fashion.

Yet, in every case you stated its inferior to whats already avaible?

[HUGECOOL]

And most mobile phones use opera, which is also a full internet browser, theres also a version of firefox(cant remember project code name) you can install on to them if you felt like it o.0

Operas had tabs way before any other browser, sames true one the phones :rolleyes:

Not really. Opera does Small-Screen Rendering. It doesn't really show the whole website. The site is processed through a server and made smaller. Sure, all the content of the website is there, but the website itself is not the same if you were to view it on a regular computer browser.

This is what I mean:

Safari on iPhone:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3971/352820838611e576404oyx8.jpg

Opera's Mobile Browser + Opera Mini:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5480/34102110775ce9478dokb5.png

That was the closes example I could find. Both browsers are on The New York Times website, but as you can see, the content is very different when juxtaposed. What I mean by that is, the one on the iPhone is much better. Websites do not adjust to the phone. Instead the browser adjusts to the websites. Also, because of the accelerometer in the iPhone, websites can be viewed at either 480×320 or 320×480, which is currently not possible on phones today.

iPhone browser with wide resolution:
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8693/35414597246dc93d4ccmkc9.jpg

Mozilla's mobile project is called 'Minimo (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/)', and in my opinion from what I've seen, (other than its tabbed browsing) it makes Opera's mobile browser look godly.

Minimo on Wikipedia, with tabbed browsing:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2414/minimocj4.jpg



In what way, sony phones run the walkman software which is superior to ipods in compatablty and format useage anyway?That means squat. People don't generally care what's superior when it comes to technology. Why is the iPod so popular if its technologically inferior? The iPod is more widely recognized and so is the software it uses. Superior or not, the public prefers it.


normal phones will even run gmail, way better than any apple crap, and thats compairng phone gmail to actual apple email apps.so that pretty much leaves everyone without a gmail account out of that convenience, right? And again, it's third-party.


Yet, in every case you stated its inferior to whats already avaible?How did I say it was inferior? "/ I may have compared to to today's technology, but haven't labeled it inferior. All I have done so far is point out how the iPhone will change the way things are done compared to today's mobile phones. It isn't inferior, but also isn't superior. Some technology is new or improved, but for the most part, its features are more user-friendly than whats currently available out of the box from cell phone manufacturers.

[summer]

about the 'overpriced' thing.

i'm guessing you'll probably be able to get it for nothing if you get it on contract though?

[Djcafc.]

no i think its pointless but it looks quite nice but im against it really

[Browney]

The iPhone will be a success.

The fact is, anything with an i infront of it will be a success.

The debate whether this is a good idea is abit flawed. Even if it's a bad, poorly made product you'll still be popular for having one. It could be terrible but it will be the must-have-gadget this year.

[GommeInc]

;2894539']I think Apple have done a great job with their Ipod series includin the original,the ipod nano, the ipod video their ipod shuffle wasnt a good idea in my opinion but ive looked at the phones specification a nice 2mega pixel camera
You cang et 3 mega pixel camera, and Sony are the creators of Cyber Shot. The iPhone will most like have crappy quality pictures. Apple have done a sufficient job with their iPods, but hardly anything to brag about. They're still known for worst quality music out of Sony and Creative and still crash for no reason (won't turn off etc).


]Touch sensitive screen and fast easy access to the internet makes this a good mobile in my opinion, im hoping they provide a stylus and a better screen different from the ipod nano im asking for this because the ipod nano screen scratches to easily unless you have your own case any ipod nano owner would agree with me there lol.
Other than the touch screen, there is nothing different about it. On my Sony Ericsson you connect to the internet by pressing just one button? So the iPhone is no different in comparison unless they have invented a way to connect to the internet in less than 1 way? I bet the snob of an Apple boss my lie about that. He lied about half his adverts, no neccessarily him, but most hte company is pretty snobbish.

You would think for the amount you pay for a rubbish iPod Nano, they would make a scratch proof screen? My Creative Zen Vision: M screen sratches, but that comes with spare screens which cost next to nothing.



]I think this is a great phone overall maybe a tiny bit over priced but probably not intended for the younger audience will probably be used as a business phone as shown on the ipod nano site. You may say look at the price so what they have the freedom to sell their products for what they want and ive had no problems with an apple product in the past...
Other than the touchscreen it is a normal phone, although you could consider the built in iPod a different MP3 player if you want. But other than that, there is nothing different? The iPhone I hope will be built by business men and women, the phone is far to thin for children, teenagers etcwho will probably wrestle with it in their pocket. Snap and it's gone, like the previous iPod Nano.


The iPhone will be a success.
No, it will just be another brand/option you can buy when it comes to buying a phone. Hardly a success.

The fact is, anything with an i infront of it will be a success.

The fact is, iPod use a crappy Apple format which is no way as good as MP3/WMA. The quality of sound is far tooo inferior to any real MP3 player in existence, the headphones are probably the main cause of it.

The debate whether this is a good idea is abit flawed. Even if it's a bad, poorly made product you'll still be popular for having one. It could be terrible but it will be the must-have-gadget this year.
Popular? Wow, you must live a sad life if all the things you buy are there just to make you popular :s

[Browney]

No, it will just be another brand/option you can buy when it comes to buying a phone. Hardly a success.

A success is a well selling phone. If you think there will be spares when they first come out well i'm afraid you're mistaken.


The fact is, iPod use a crappy Apple format which is no way as good as MP3/WMA. The quality of sound is far tooo inferior to any real MP3 player in existence, the headphones are probably the main cause of it.

If you read my post you will have noticed that is what I said. No matter how crappy it is, iPods were/still are popular.


Popular? Wow, you must live a sad life if all the things you buy are there just to make you popular :s

Well, most people I know would buy expensive, ill fitting Nike trainers to cheap, snug "crap" brand trainers. And I never said I would buy one to make me popular did I? Infact my post was quite neutral in realation to your biased posts.

I'm gonna stop arguing now. Carry on if you like.
To me it's just a gadget and I can't understand why everyone is getting so worked up.

[GommeInc]

A success is a well selling phone. If you think there will be spares when they first come out well i'm afraid you're mistaken.
There will be spares when they are sold, just like any other phone. The iPhone is, just another phone. Only differences are, it's the first Apple phone and it has a touchscreen.



If you read my post you will have noticed that is what I said. No matter how crappy it is, iPods were/still are popular.
Because they're cheap to make and over glorified. So they have billions space and give them away free when one is broken. If they bothered fixing the bugs, then maybe they wouldn't have to give them away free?



Well, most people I know would buy expensive, ill fitting Nike trainers to cheap, snug "crap" brand trainers. And I never said I would buy one to make me popular did I? Infact my post was quite neutral in realation to your biased posts.
My post was neutral too, I never said you as in you, Cola, I meant you as in "Those who are dumb enough to think expensive things make you popular."

You can buy comfy, snug clothes for 1/3 the price of expensive crap. 2/3 of brand named goods are buying the name, rather than how much it costs to make plus extra for profit. I too don't see why people go buying expensive stuff which probably aren't comfy or just as comfy are cheaper brands.

[Frodo13.]

If you read my post you will have noticed that is what I said. No matter how crappy it is, iPods were/still are popular.

.


True. Apple control 70% of the U.S MP3 Market

[Mentor]

Not really. Opera does Small-Screen Rendering. It doesn't really show the whole website. The site is processed through a server and made smaller. Sure, all the content of the website is there, but the website itself is not the same if you were to view it on a regular computer browser.

This is what I mean:

Safari on iPhone:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3971/352820838611e576404oyx8.jpg

Opera's Mobile Browser + Opera Mini:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5480/34102110775ce9478dokb5.png

That was the closes example I could find. Both browsers are on The New York Times website, but as you can see, the content is very different when juxtaposed. What I mean by that is, the one on the iPhone is much better. Websites do not adjust to the phone. Instead the browser adjusts to the websites. Also, because of the accelerometer in the iPhone, websites can be viewed at either 480×320 or 320×480, which is currently not possible on phones today.

iPhone browser with wide resolution:
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8693/35414597246dc93d4ccmkc9.jpg

Mozilla's mobile project is called 'Minimo (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/)', and in my opinion from what I've seen, (other than its tabbed browsing) it makes Opera's mobile browser look godly.

Minimo on Wikipedia, with tabbed browsing:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2414/minimocj4.jpg




So actually having text large enough to read isnt important to you? well you can have the pretty pictures, actualy being able to use the content is personaly more useful to me "/

Although if you actualy look at the high end of the maket you could just get a pda with phone capabiltys, there a bit bulky, but the functonalty is somewhat massive, from being able to work as a tomtom though the abilty to make power point presentaions and word documents "/


That means squat. People don't generally care what's superior when it comes to technology. Why is the iPod so popular if its technologically inferior? The iPod is more widely recognized and so is the software it uses. Superior or not, the public prefers it.
Well first off, what public are your refering to, your useing the stats for the US. World wide market share wize ipod only has a 10.3% ... guess which contary makes up nearly all of that stat... yes the US.
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00EBFaDZNLbTqbM/China-Manufacturer-of-Mp4-Player-HYF18-.jpg
Does that remind you of an ipod? becuse its not, probably made in the same sqeat shops but brough, branded and distributed by a different company.
Ipods just a brand name lumped on a collection of produces, apple doesnt actualy make em, any more than microsoft made the zune, or AOL made its yet to be named producet (the most advanced media player yet, basicly its got zunes network, just without all the limitions and drm **** shoved on top, looks ugly as hell but whipes the floor with its competion in functionalty terms.

Not to mention your argument was its technilgy supporior, now you say thats not important?


so that pretty much leaves everyone without a gmail account out of that convenience, right? And again, it's third-party.
Most apple uses use gmail anyway since the apple email product is such a horrific mess along with the idisk and other range of usless products bundled with it.

How did I say it was inferior? "/ I may have compared to to today's technology, but haven't labeled it inferior. All I have done so far is point out how the iPhone will change the way things are done compared to today's mobile phones. It isn't inferior, but also isn't superior. Some technology is new or improved, but for the most part, its features are more user-friendly than whats currently available out of the box from cell phone manufacturers.

o.0 saying somthing is better = saying its superior. saying somthing is supeior = calling the competion inferior. in all instances this was not acheaved "/


The iPhone will be a success.

The fact is, anything with an i infront of it will be a success.

The debate whether this is a good idea is abit flawed. Even if it's a bad, poorly made product you'll still be popular for having one. It could be terrible but it will be the must-have-gadget this year.

Chances are they wont be able to sell it of anyway due to the blatent copyright and patent infingments "/


A success is a well selling phone. If you think there will be spares when they first come out well i'm afraid you're mistaken.
Well seeing as you havent actualy travelled to the future and the popularty of the iphone is nill compartivly to there other produts id say most companys wont even stock them, and those that do will have plenty of em left over.

[BL!NKEY]

You cang et 3 mega pixel camera, and Sony are the creators of Cyber Shot. The iPhone will most like have crappy quality pictures. Apple have done a sufficient job with their iPods, but hardly anything to brag about. They're still known for worst quality music out of Sony and Creative and still crash for no reason (won't turn off etc).

The iPhone isnt marketed as a high quality camera phone. The sony Cyber Shot is. The iPhone will still have good quality pictures because 2 mega pixels are fine for a normal camera phone. Apple does have stuff to brag about with their iPods. They have 70&#37; of the market and have taken the mp3 market by storm. You say later that the quality of their music (they still use mp3) is because of their headphones which you could always buy different higher quality headphones. Most people dont want apple to send expensive headphones in the box because that would raise the price. And the iPhone has new headphones so you cant say they will be bad.


Other than the touch screen, there is nothing different about it. On my Sony Ericsson you connect to the internet by pressing just one button? So the iPhone is no different in comparison unless they have invented a way to connect to the internet in less than 1 way? I bet the snob of an Apple boss my lie about that. He lied about half his adverts, no neccessarily him, but most hte company is pretty snobbish.

The iPhone has a full web browser which is better. Everything is intuative (sp?). To zoom in you pinch your fingers together on the screen and move them apart. To zoom out you pinch in. To rotate the picture you rotate the phone. About the adverts. Most of them had points behind them. Apples crash less then pcs and dont get viruses as easily. They can also run XP so there wasnt much he lied about. Maybe bring up a ad and I can explain how it isnt lying.


You would think for the amount you pay for a rubbish iPod Nano, they would make a scratch proof screen? My Creative Zen Vision: M screen sratches, but that comes with spare screens which cost next to nothing.

You cant make something scratch proof. Maybe scratch resistant. The new iPod Nano has a better screen. Also the iPhone is smudge resistant. They probably worked harder on making it scratch resistant because it will be touched more.


Other than the touchscreen it is a normal phone, although you could consider the built in iPod a different MP3 player if you want. But other than that, there is nothing different? The iPhone I hope will be built by business men and women, the phone is far to thin for children, teenagers etcwho will probably wrestle with it in their pocket. Snap and it's gone, like the previous iPod Nano.

I agree that it would be great for business men and women but I know some teenegers who could be careful with it. I wouldnt snap and mess around with it if i got one.


No, it will just be another brand/option you can buy when it comes to buying a phone. Hardly a success.

You are true it will be another option. The future will tell if it is going to be popular. You cant say it wont this early.


The fact is, iPod use a crappy Apple format which is no way as good as MP3/WMA. The quality of sound is far tooo inferior to any real MP3 player in existence, the headphones are probably the main cause of it.

As I said earlier you can put MP3s on iPod. About how the sound quality is far inderior to any real MP3 player in existance? I am sure there are hundreds of MP3 players that have worse sound quality. Or do you only count real MP3 players as Sony, creative and Apple? And the headphones can be switched with higher quality headphones if you are really picky about your quality.


Popular? Wow, you must live a sad life if all the things you buy are there just to make you popular :s

You shouldnt buy things just to make you popular because there are many good uses out of stuff besides people comming up to you and being like woa you have the new iPhone let me see.


There will be spares when they are sold, just like any other phone. The iPhone is, just another phone. Only differences are, it's the first Apple phone and it has a touchscreen.

How can you be so sure about this. How do you know that there will be spares. A lot of people have been waiting for this and I think there will be a big rush to get them. Depends on how many Apple make. If they have a lot already made or if they are going to release them while they are still making the bulk of them. Like what happened to 360 wii and PS3


Because they're cheap to make and over glorified. So they have billions space and give them away free when one is broken. If they bothered fixing the bugs, then maybe they wouldn't have to give them away free?

How are you sure that they will have bugs? And they wont have to give them away for free. If they had bugs they could be fixed with a softwear update probably because the phone only has one button and one touch screen.


My post was neutral too, I never said you as in you, Cola, I meant you as in "Those who are dumb enough to think expensive things make you popular."

It is bad morally for that statment to be right. But in most places if someone drove to school in a super expensive car and walked out with the newest designer clothes they people would pay more attention to them.


You can buy comfy, snug clothes for 1/3 the price of expensive crap. 2/3 of brand named goods are buying the name, rather than how much it costs to make plus extra for profit. I too don't see why people go buying expensive stuff which probably aren't comfy or just as comfy are cheaper brands.

Because they like to have the newest and most expensive things. That is how some humans are. More people notice them if they have the designer clothes. Welcome to the world.


So actually having text large enough to read isnt important to you? well you can have the pretty pictures, actualy being able to use the content is personaly more useful to me "/

Although if you actualy look at the high end of the maket you could just get a pda with phone capabiltys, there a bit bulky, but the functonalty is somewhat massive, from being able to work as a tomtom though the abilty to make power point presentaions and word documents "/


Well first off, what public are your refering to, your useing the stats for the US. World wide market share wize ipod only has a 10.3% ... guess which contary makes up nearly all of that stat... yes the US.
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00EBFaDZNLbTqbM/China-Manufacturer-of-Mp4-Player-HYF18-.jpg
Does that remind you of an ipod? becuse its not, probably made in the same sqeat shops but brough, branded and distributed by a different company.
Ipods just a brand name lumped on a collection of produces, apple doesnt actualy make em, any more than microsoft made the zune, or AOL made its yet to be named producet (the most advanced media player yet, basicly its got zunes network, just without all the limitions and drm **** shoved on top, looks ugly as hell but whipes the floor with its competion in functionalty terms.

Not to mention your argument was its technilgy supporior, now you say thats not important?


Most apple uses use gmail anyway since the apple email product is such a horrific mess along with the idisk and other range of usless products bundled with it.

o.0 saying somthing is better = saying its superior. saying somthing is supeior = calling the competion inferior. in all instances this was not acheaved "/



Chances are they wont be able to sell it of anyway due to the blatent copyright and patent infingments "/


Well seeing as you havent actualy travelled to the future and the popularty of the iphone is nill compartivly to there other produts id say most companys wont even stock them, and those that do will have plenty of em left over.

Ok first off is you can zoom in on the text so that isnt a problem. You can rear earlier in my post on how you zoom in. I have never seen a world wide iPod stat. Where did you get the 10.3%

I agree that it might not be a big in like Japan because they are way ahead of us and are a totally different market.

But I find 10.3% to be too small.

Apple isnt trying to get other companies to knock off their design. And they dont use sweat shops. They actually regulate their shops to make sure the workers have good working conditions. Stop making up stuff. Apple doesnt make them but they design them.

And you have traveled to the future and seen that iPhones didnt sell well and are on the shelfs?

No one knows. I am just getting in to this thread because it will be funny to look back on if the iPhone becomes a huge hit like the iPod.

[Oni]

Personally i belive its great, its a smartphone done properly it has everything you could need. Gommeinc and mentor why are you completely baised against it, its obviously going to be good it has all you could need. As for .AAC its the same as .Mp3 it just allows apple to make sure its not ripped off.

I wont be buying it because im not going to waste £400 on a phone but i can still see its pretty damn good.

[HUGECOOL]

So actually having text large enough to read isnt important to you? well you can have the pretty pictures, actualy being able to use the content is personaly more useful to me "/

Although if you actualy look at the high end of the maket you could just get a pda with phone capabiltys, there a bit bulky, but the functonalty is somewhat massive, from being able to work as a tomtom though the abilty to make power point presentaions and word documents "/
Double-tapping the screen with your fingers zooms in on the website, making both text and graphics easier to view. The zoom feature can be done multiple times according to user preference. So yes, content is important to me because I'd rather browse through the full content of a website the way they were supposed to be viewed, not some miniturized crap that doesn't even make accessing the Internet through my phone worth my while.

Heres an idea; find how the product works first, then come back to debate about it. Obviously, you haven't even seen how the phone works, let alone know how its features function or how they will probably improve the way things are done on today's cell phones.



Well first off, what public are your refering to, your useing the stats for the US. World wide market share wize ipod only has a 10.3% ... guess which contary makes up nearly all of that stat... yes the US.
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00EBFaDZNLbTqbM/China-Manufacturer-of-Mp4-Player-HYF18-.jpg
Does that remind you of an ipod? becuse its not, probably made in the same sqeat shops but brough, branded and distributed by a different company.
Ipods just a brand name lumped on a collection of produces, apple doesnt actualy make em, any more than microsoft made the zune, or AOL made its yet to be named producet (the most advanced media player yet, basicly its got zunes network, just without all the limitions and drm **** shoved on top, looks ugly as hell but whipes the floor with its competion in functionalty terms.

Not to mention your argument was its technilgy supporior, now you say thats not important?
No that wasnt my argument at all, lol. In fact, it seems more like you started your own argument (about iPod marketshare apparently) and concluded it. o_O And are you talking about market share in consumer electronics a whole or in the mp3-player market, because the percentages vary widely.

I was saying that the iPod is more widely recognized along with the software it uses (iTunes), so if someone were to buy a phone and were already familiar with the software the iPod uses, chances are they'll buy it for its ease of use not because its technologically superior. Plus the marketing strategy Apple uses also helps. ;)



Most apple uses use gmail anyway since the apple email product is such a horrific mess along with the idisk and other range of usless products bundled with it.
I don't personally use Apple's email client because I've never used client-based email. But please provide some insight as to why Apple's email client is a horrific mess. Obviously, you've used it long enough to experience all the flaws it has, otherwise, I'd say you were just quoting some anonymous entity based on their opinion. "/



o.0 saying somthing is better = saying its superior. saying somthing is supeior = calling the competion inferior. in all instances this was not acheaved "/
The improvements of the iPhone are isolated to certain areas. I'm not calling the competition inferior. Maybe the features they have, but not their products as a whole.


Chances are they wont be able to sell it of anyway due to the blatent copyright and patent infingments "/
Yes. Thats why the iPod was never sold because its UI belonged to someone else. :rolleyes:

[Mentor]

The iPhone isnt marketed as a high quality camera phone. The sony Cyber Shot is. The iPhone will still have good quality pictures because 2 mega pixels are fine for a normal camera phone. Apple does have stuff to brag about with their iPods. They have 70% of the market and have taken the mp3 market by storm.
1) the US market share. World wide market share is only 10.3%


You say later that the quality of their music (they still use mp3) is because of their headphones which you could always buy different higher quality headphones. Most people dont want apple to send expensive headphones in the box because that would raise the price. And the iPhone has new headphones so you cant say they will be bad.
Apple actualy bundle quite quite high quality head phones compartivly, although does offer the poorest sound quaity (as a device) out of all the major mp3 players.

The iPhone has a full web browser which is better. Everything is intuative (sp?). To zoom in you pinch your fingers together on the screen and move them apart. To zoom out you pinch in. To rotate the picture you rotate the phone.
To rotate the picture your rotate the phone?? lol. Yea thats not really a feature, draw a picture on some paper, you may as find you still have that amaiseng feature, rotate the paper and the picture will rotate 2... WOW....

Why would anyone want an upside down website view anyway?


About the adverts. Most of them had points behind them. Apples crash less then pcs and dont get viruses as easily. They can also run XP so there wasnt much he lied about. Maybe bring up a ad and I can explain how it isnt lying.
1) Apples has been shown to crash just as commonly as a pc when running equivlent software.
2) Apple can get virus's, easier than pc's in fact, its just there far rairer as OSX doesnt have enough market share for spyware venders to worry about
3)No they cant. XP is so well made it will run on any hardware. OSX is so poorly made it can only run on Apples own hardware. Any hardware includes apple hardware. Stop adding spin. In reality its XP thats got the advantage not apples side.


You cant make something scratch proof. Maybe scratch resistant. The new iPod Nano has a better screen.
Yes you can. you just use a matreal thats to hard to be scratched o.0

Also the iPhone is smudge resistant. They probably worked harder on making it scratch resistant because it will be touched more.
Actualy the iphone has very poor reviwes in reguads to its reistance to smudges or scratches, normal phones are usealy very solidty put to gether, the iphone isnt and is very likly to break or crack if droped.


I agree that it would be great for business men and women but I know some teenegers who could be careful with it. I wouldnt snap and mess around with it if i got one. At $600 id think not.


As I said earlier you can put MP3s on iPod. About how the sound quality is far inderior to any real MP3 player in existance? I am sure there are hundreds of MP3 players that have worse sound quality. Or do you only count real MP3 players as Sony, creative and Apple? And the headphones can be switched with higher quality headphones if you are really picky about your quality.
Headphone independat survays have shown apple has poor sound quality, tests were only applied tothe major mp3 brands, im sure if you get some obscure crapy pound land branded mp3 player it will have worse sound.


You shouldnt buy things just to make you popular because there are many good uses out of stuff besides people comming up to you and being like woa you have the new iPhone let me see.
Actualy thats been apples marketing stratgery for some time, the whole ipod brand is built on its "coolness" its why its the must have accessory, and has proven to be massivly successful, hence its domincae in the US market.


How can you be so sure about this. How do you know that there will be spares. A lot of people have been waiting for this and I think there will be a big rush to get them. Depends on how many Apple make. If they have a lot already made or if they are going to release them while they are still making the bulk of them. Like what happened to 360 wii and PS3
Lots of people? the iphone marketings been pretty poor, "lots" of people have never heard of it. and out of the few who did, most aint likly to part with that much money, especaly when you could pick up a ps3 for the same price.


How are you sure that they will have bugs? And they wont have to give them away for free. If they had bugs they could be fixed with a softwear update probably because the phone only has one button and one touch screen.
Poor manufacturing on apples part usealy garentees at least a few hardware bugs. Why do you think apples software has such a rep for screen failures and haveing to replace so many of the ipods.


It is bad morally for that statment to be right. But in most places if someone drove to school in a super expensive car and walked out with the newest designer clothes they people would pay more attention to them.
Then mug them?


Because they like to have the newest and most expensive things. That is how some humans are. More people notice them if they have the designer clothes. Welcome to the world.
They all come from the same sweatshops :rolleyes:


Ok first off is you can zoom in on the text so that isnt a problem. You can rear earlier in my post on how you zoom in. I have never seen a world wide iPod stat. Where did you get the 10.3%
Sales statistics for mp3's? its the sourse for the statistics used on wikipedia's ipod article.


I agree that it might not be a big in like Japan because they are way ahead of us and are a totally different market.


But I find 10.3% to be too small.
Ipod only really seels in eurpoe and the US. that leaves china and pretty much the rest of the entire world useing differnt products, only about 30 or 40 % or the market share is taken up by the major mp3 distributers, the rest are just a large amount of smaller non main brand items.


Apple isnt trying to get other companies to knock off their design. And they dont use sweat shops. They actually regulate their shops to make sure the workers have good working conditions. Stop making up stuff. Apple doesnt make them but they design them.
Yea, they say that, hence all the stick from the watch dog agencys. There clames dont match up with realty, and they have a very poor track record. Plus no apple buys the devices from manufactures as its own, in the same way an O2 phone wasnt made by O2, its just the actual designers remain anoniums. Apple write the software though "/


And you have traveled to the future and seen that iPhones didnt sell well and are on the shelfs?
Nope im makeing infiernaces based on the evdiance avaible.


No one knows. I am just getting in to this thread because it will be funny to look back on if the iPhone becomes a huge hit like the iPod.


Personally i belive its great, its a smartphone done properly it has everything you could need. Gommeinc and mentor why are you completely baised against it, its obviously going to be good it has all you could need. As for .AAC its the same as .Mp3 it just allows apple to make sure its not ripped off.

I wont be buying it because im not going to waste £400 on a phone but i can still see its pretty damn good.
Im not bias against it, its just im also not bais towards it, since ive mainted an understanding that adding an i infront of somthing doesnt make it good, dispite the fact half the contary seem as if theyed be perfectly happy to buy an Iturd if apple made one.



Double-tapping the screen with your fingers zooms in on the website, making both text and graphics easier to view. The zoom feature can be done multiple times according to user preference. So yes, content is important to me because I'd rather browse through the full content of a website the way they were supposed to be viewed, not some miniturized crap that doesn't even make accessing the Internet through my phone worth my while.
Yes, as we all browse are computers, then zoom in on the blob we want to read o.0 thats exsacty how they were designed to be used, well done.... :rolleyes:


Heres an idea; find how the product works first, then come back to debate about it. Obviously, you haven't even seen how the phone works, let alone know how its features function or how they will probably improve the way things are done on today's cell phones.
Poorly designed mp3 player + poor attempt a pda + phone with unchangeable service so behind cant even connect to a 3g network + a few patent infingments = iphone.

Thats pretty much what your buying.


No that wasnt my argument at all, lol. In fact, it seems more like you started your own argument (about iPod marketshare apparently) and concluded it. o_O And are you talking about market share in consumer electronics a whole or in the mp3-player market, because the percentages vary widely.
Mp3 player market share. i though when i said 10.3% of the MP3 market share it was pretty clear... i guess not.



I was saying that the iPod is more widely recognized along with the software it uses (iTunes),
Itunes is a desktop software used to work with the ipod software. Ipods dont run on itunes, dispite similartys in the look.
so if someone were to buy a phone and were already familiar with the software the iPod uses, chances are they'll buy it for its ease of use not because its technologically superior. Plus the marketing strategy Apple uses also helps. ;)
Apples ignorance campaign? well cant actualy disagree there, its done wonders, but its gona byte em in the *** soon enough. Plus i tend to buy better things, not one im familur with. you may be more familur with a mega drive, chances are your still going to opt for a ps2/3 etc since its supeior.


don't personally use Apple's email client because I've never used client-based email. But please provide some insight as to why Apple's email client is a horrific mess. Obviously, you've used it long enough to experience all the flaws it has, otherwise, I'd say you were just quoting some anonymous entity based on their opinion. "/
A long time listening to many people ranting about how **** it is tends to be a good insignt. Then the technical specs, limitions, software limitions, shear common sence, and a little time pokeing it. But yea, in the end its an opinion. Mine.


The improvements of the iPhone are isolated to certain areas. I'm not calling the competition inferior. Maybe the features they have, but not their products as a whole.
Ive still yet to be convinced of anything apple can do better than its competion, in any area? or overall? even touch screens been done before, although people tend not to advertise devices in the price range at this sort of audance, you want spend alot, you can get a phone with a 10 mega pixle camra if you felt like it "/


Yes. Thats why the iPod was never sold because its UI belonged to someone else. :rolleyes:
Actualy the ended up just paying creative a £100 million in order to licence the patent. But in this case they used the name, meaning there going to have to complety rebrand it, if they want to sell it. Iphone is already a product.

[YoManGo!]

The question here isn't whether it's a good idea, because it obviously is. Think about it;

Apple already making billions every year through other products, so when they enter something as lucrative as the telecommunications market there are bound to be millions of people worldwide who will think ''well Apple made it, it must be good!'' and because it has the i in front of it, everyone will rush to get one. The amount of money that Apple stand to make here is actually quite scary, when you consider the fact it probably won't be as good as a lot of other phones.

[GommeInc]

The iPhone isnt marketed as a high quality camera phone. The sony Cyber Shot is. The iPhone will still have good quality pictures because 2 mega pixels are fine for a normal camera phone.
I don't actually know what the iPhone is marketed as. The way they brag about how amazing it is in the advert, it seems to me they are saying it is the first phone to have the internet and an MP3 player. Other than that, it is just the touch screen which makes it different.


Apple does have stuff to brag about with their iPods. They have 70&#37; of the market and have taken the mp3 market by storm.
You moan later on that you've never come across real stats for the iPod, so why do you do it too? It isn't 70%, I would say 30% because loads of people I know prefer and have iRiver, Creative, Sony and any other MP3 in terms of price compared to an iPod.


You say later that the quality of their music (they still use mp3) is because of their headphones which you could always buy different higher quality headphones.
It is rude to change words in what I say. I said that some of the blame could be to their poorly designed headphones, not that it IS the headphones. After buying such a rediculously expensive MP3 player, you don't want to buy better headphones. At that price, you should be able to get good headphones with them. Other MP3 companies do? People only tend to buy new headphones when their old ones have died or they want Bass Boost etc. When you upload a song onto an iPod, the quality is slowly taken away. I am not sure why, but I am imagine it might be for space.



Most people dont want apple to send expensive headphones in the box because that would raise the price. And the iPhone has new headphones so you cant say they will be bad.
As stated, it wouldn't make a change. But because Apple like to glorify themselves by raising the price, they would probably do that.


The iPhone has a full web browser which is better. Everything is intuative (sp?). To zoom in you pinch your fingers together on the screen and move them apart. To zoom out you pinch in. To rotate the picture you rotate the phone.
That's kinda strange, to roate a picture you rotate the phone? Can you grab the corner and do it that way? I wouldn't really say you need a full web browser? But what do you mean by it?


About the adverts. Most of them had points behind them. Apples crash less then pcs and dont get viruses as easily. They can also run XP so there wasnt much he lied about. Maybe bring up a ad and I can explain how it isnt lying.
The ads I am questioning are ones you find on Myspace, so it might be hard to find them. In general it was something like this:

"There are 1,400 viruses a year on a Computer. 1,400 to choose a Mac."

"With a Mac, you can make your holiday videos. With a PC, you'll need another holiday."

People who make viruses never bother making them for Macs, waste of time in the long run because they don't belong to people who are leaking with information.

The video thing was aload of crap when I saw it. Most PCs actually are fast and can make videos easily. You can also make more effects and edit quicker with a PC. A Mac just takes ages and is frustrating when you find out it has hardly any special effects in the Official Program.


You cant make something scratch proof. Maybe scratch resistant. The new iPod Nano has a better screen. Also the iPhone is smudge resistant. They probably worked harder on making it scratch resistant because it will be touched more.
They sometimes call it scratch proof, so I go with that :P The iPod Nano, the new one, still scratches like crazy. For the price, it's not worth buying one. For the amount you pay for a Nano, you would think they could fix this more. The iPhone is smudge resistant? Smudges are not as bad as scratchs? One you can wipe away, the other is perminant unless you buff it down?


I agree that it would be great for business men and women but I know some teenegers who could be careful with it. I wouldnt snap and mess around with it if i got one.
I find the could amusing. At schools, you always get pointless, random wrestling matches or general boyish behaviour.


You are true it will be another option. The future will tell if it is going to be popular. You cant say it wont this early.
Suppose so, but there is a high possiblity it will just be another iPod which would be just as famous as a Zen etc if it wasn't over advertised or given away for free by loads of companies.

[Browney]

It's fairly impressive the way people are getting so feisty about a phone.

To me it's just another product. Don't get so angry about it.

[GommeInc]

It's fairly impressive the way people are getting so feisty about a phone.

To me it's just another product. Don't get so angry about it.
It's a debate forum, it's what you have to do? You give a few points and the opposing side give a few points. If you are not here to debate, then don't look at the thread?

I've also been in a more interesting, feisty debate in one of my Philosophy classes. We all ended up agreeing that rabbits should cut the crap and be given the guns to protect themselves out in the wild.

[HUGECOOL]

Yes, as we all browse are computers, then zoom in on the blob we want to read o.0 thats exsacty how they were designed to be used, well done....:rolleyes:
What I meant was that the website itself is completely there on the phone, as it would be on a regular browser, as opposed to having content reduced to a single column. "/ But you already knew that, so I don't see why you're sidetracking the argument at hand, which was juxtaposing mobile browsers.


Poorly designed mp3 player + poor attempt a pda + phone with unchangeable service so behind cant even connect to a 3g network + a few patent infingments = iphone.

Thats pretty much what your buying.
Thats irrelavent to my statement. I suggested you find how the phone works, not list what you believe makes the iPhone.


Mp3 player market share. i though when i said 10.3% of the MP3 market share it was pretty clear... i guess not.
You said, "your useing the stats for the US. World wide market share wize ipod only has a 10.3%", which could either imply the consumer electronics market or the mp3-player market. I'm gonna have to ask you for the source of your findings if you don't mind. All articles concerning the mp3-player market that I've read (which are like three, tbh) have shown the iPod with a substantionally larger market share that what you're suggesting. (And thats worldwide marketshare btw)


Itunes is a desktop software used to work with the ipod software. Ipods dont run on itunes, dispite similartys in the look.
I know that. Maybe I should've made myself clearer, but in any case, this isn't a valid argument, nor was it supposed to have one. o_O


Apples ignorance campaign? well cant actualy disagree there, its done wonders, but its gona byte em in the *** soon enough.
How is advertising something that is easier to use an ignorance campaign? When something is easier to use, its sold for convenience of usage. If someone already knew how to use a product but wanted the convenience of using it in an easier way, this marketing would be targeted for those people. Working easier =/= being ignorant.


Plus i tend to buy better things, not one im familur with. you may be more familur with a mega drive, chances are your still going to opt for a ps2/3 etc since its supeior.
With that logic, you'd prefer Mac OS X over Windows XP. (And for the sake of argument, I'm just using them as examples, not comparing their capabilities.)


A long time listening to many people ranting about how **** it is tends to be a good insignt. Then the technical specs, limitions, software limitions, shear common sence, and a little time pokeing it. But yea, in the end its an opinion. Mine.
I asked for your personal insight, not your method of acquiring a 'personal opinion' based on what others think of something. :rolleyes:


Ive still yet to be convinced of anything apple can do better than its competion, in any area? or overall? even touch screens been done before, although people tend not to advertise devices in the price range at this sort of audance, you want spend alot, you can get a phone with a 10 mega pixle camra if you felt like it "/
multiple-touch touchscreens havent actually been available in mobile devices, so integrating that technology into cell phones would have an upperhand in competition, or a disaster if it isnt easy to use.


Actualy the ended up just paying creative a £100 million in order to licence the patent. But in this case they used the name, meaning there going to have to complety rebrand it, if they want to sell it. Iphone is already a product.
Considering Cisco is now risking losing their rights to the name in the EU market, they might just rebrand the phones on the US market, assuming Apple can get the rights to use the name there. Anyway, hopefully it'll be over soon. Pretty boring to see the topic arise almost everywhere you go.

[BL!NKEY]

To rotate the picture your rotate the phone?? lol. Yea thats not really a feature, draw a picture on some paper, you may as find you still have that amaiseng feature, rotate the paper and the picture will rotate 2... WOW....

Why would anyone want an upside down website view anyway?

That is the point. It is all intuative. You are looking at a website right side up in portate mode. You want to see it in landscape so you rotate the phone and the picture flips too. The iPhone automatically flips the site to where you are looking at it from.


1) Apples has been shown to crash just as commonly as a pc when running equivlent software.
2) Apple can get virus's, easier than pc's in fact, its just there far rairer as OSX doesnt have enough market share for spyware venders to worry about
3)No they cant. XP is so well made it will run on any hardware. OSX is so poorly made it can only run on Apples own hardware. Any hardware includes apple hardware. Stop adding spin. In reality its XP thats got the advantage not apples side.

How can apples get viruses more easier them pc's? Any source or anything? Every time you download and want to install something you need the admin password. It is not like OSX was made badly so it cannot be run on any hardware. It is locked from running on non apple computers.



Yes you can. you just use a matreal thats to hard to be scratched o.0

Hard to scratch is not totally scratch proof. I am sure if you drop a "hard to be scratched" thing a few stories onto concrete it will have scratches.


Actualy the iphone has very poor reviwes in reguads to its reistance to smudges or scratches, normal phones are usealy very solidty put to gether, the iphone isnt and is very likly to break or crack if droped.

Has anyone actually tested this. I dont think anyone was looking at the iPhone and droped it and it broke. This is just all assumptions.



Actualy thats been apples marketing stratgery for some time, the whole ipod brand is built on its "coolness" its why its the must have accessory, and has proven to be massivly successful, hence its domincae in the US market.

The coolness factor doesnt just come. They had to earn it by the ease of use and high quality.


Lots of people? the iphone marketings been pretty poor, "lots" of people have never heard of it. and out of the few who did, most aint likly to part with that much money, especaly when you could pick up a ps3 for the same price.

It wont be released untill june. There doesnt need to be hype already. But I am sure a lot of people know about it. It was all over the news and usually something about it on youtubes popular list.




Sales statistics for mp3's? its the sourse for the statistics used on wikipedia's ipod article.

Doesnt say anything about 10.3% on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod) just talks about the success and
over 70% of the market for all types of players in the US. If 10.3% is actually right that still means that iPods are way ahead of any other produce on the world wide mp3 list.


Ipod only really seels in eurpoe and the US. that leaves china and pretty much the rest of the entire world useing differnt products, only about 30 or 40 % or the market share is taken up by the major mp3 distributers, the rest are just a large amount of smaller non main brand items.

As I said. if Apple is more then 10%, that means that they are by far the best selling mp3 player world wide.


chances are your still going to opt for a ps2/3 etc since its supeior.

For a buisness man a nice iPhone will do him better then a Play Station. And chances are if you can buy an iPhone you wont have problems dishing out more money for a ps3.



Ive still yet to be convinced of anything apple can do better than its competion, in any area? or overall? even touch screens been done before, although people tend not to advertise devices in the price range at this sort of audance, you want spend alot, you can get a phone with a 10 mega pixle camra if you felt like it "/

In any area. Well they have over 90% of the market share for hard drive based players in the US. Not to mention their stock has rocketed up.




You moan later on that you've never come across real stats for the iPod, so why do you do it too? It isn't 70%, I would say 30% because loads of people I know prefer and have iRiver, Creative, Sony and any other MP3 in terms of price compared to an iPod.

In an debates forum you cant say that statistics are wrong and say that it is more like 30% because you see a lot of other mp3 players.

Here is a quote from Wiki to help you understand.


Since October 2004, the iPod has dominated digital music player sales in the United States, with over 90% of the market for hard drive-based players and over 70% of the market for all types of players.



After buying such a rediculously expensive MP3 player, you don't want to buy better headphones.


iPods are just at expensive as other high quality mp3 players like the Zune and others.



That's kinda strange, to roate a picture you rotate the phone? Can you grab the corner and do it that way? I wouldn't really say you need a full web browser? But what do you mean by it?

It isnt strange, it is intuative. A full web browser is better then a mobile one. And because the screen is big enough you can do that.

[Mentor]

What I meant was that the website itself is completely there on the phone, as it would be on a regular browser, as opposed to having content reduced to a single column. "/ But you already knew that, so I don't see why you're sidetracking the argument at hand, which was juxtaposing mobile browsers.
My point was rearangeing the content is a valid thing to do. Your argument is that is not how a website was intened to be viewed. I then pointed out websites were never intened to be viewed via beeing zoomed in to on a specific place in order to be able to read the content. The websites use shown also requre to be modifed even if by the phone anyway, since its scaleing option does not compily with the websites design, aka the resolution the device is rendering the website as is not the actual device resolition, there is alot of rescaleing going on. sites that have been designed to resize themselves to smaller browsers, then loose this functionality anyway, and are made for no good reason unreable by the rescaled rendering used.

So the website is still altered to the phone.

The diffence is, the Iphone does the changes in the browser, wasteing resorces. The opera system does this on its own servers, saveing resources and meaning less data has to be transfer an advantage on low bandwidth devices which are what most phones are. Especaly the Iphone which has far slower bandiwidth than most phones around hence why it cant even connect to a 3g network.


Thats irrelavent to my statement. I suggested you find how the phone works, not list what you believe makes the iPhone.
And i explained it to you.


You said, "your useing the stats for the US. World wide market share wize ipod only has a 10.3%", which could either imply the consumer electronics market or the mp3-player market. I'm gonna have to ask you for the source of your findings if you don't mind. All articles concerning the mp3-player market that I've read (which are like three, tbh) have shown the iPod with a substantionally larger market share that what you're suggesting. (And thats worldwide marketshare btw)

I quoth:

It estimates Apple's current iPod worldwide penetration rate of the consumer PC installed base to be a mere 10.3 percent, assuming only one iPod is tied to each personal computer. With nearly 90 percent of potential market share remaining and Apple's defensible competitive position, the firm believes the iPod will eventually surpass Sony's magical sales mark of 309 million Walkman and Discman players by the year 2009.



I know that. Maybe I should've made myself clearer, but in any case, this isn't a valid argument, nor was it supposed to have one. o_O
o.0 no its a perfectly valid arguemnt deductive reasoning
Itunes = desktop software
Ipod = portable mp3 playing device.
Thefore Ipods do not run on Itunes .


How is advertising something that is easier to use an ignorance campaign? When something is easier to use, its sold for convenience of usage. If someone already knew how to use a product but wanted the convenience of using it in an easier way, this marketing would be targeted for those people. Working easier =/= being ignorant.

No i mean the sort of crap like the "apple are immune to all virus's" (an outright lie and makeing consumers ignorant of common sence safty practises.)


With that logic, you'd prefer Mac OS X over Windows XP. (And for the sake of argument, I'm just using them as examples, not comparing their capabilities.)
Vista is superior to OSX
XP is Superior to OSX
vender freedom on hardware is supeior to vender locking as with mac's

How the hell can you deduce if i choose the supeior product that id want a mac?


I asked for your personal insight, not your method of acquiring a 'personal opinion' based on what others think of something. :rolleyes:
Go look insight up in a dictonary...


multiple-touch touchscreens havent actually been available in mobile devices, so integrating that technology into cell phones would have an upperhand in competition, or a disaster if it isnt easy to use.
Most devices this far havent really had any want nore need to incorpate a multiple-touch touchscreen. Since in normal circumstances its not really seen as very useful. For exsample it would be like windows haveing two mouse pointers (although this infact could have a possible use, and has a product for it, so is really only here as a persudo exsample, and does still apply to portable devices)
Since most pdas etc have taken there design from computer based interaction.
So apple is trying somthing pretty new here, for better or worse, in the way it intends people to navigate it "/


Considering Cisco is now risking losing their rights to the name in the EU market, they might just rebrand the phones on the US market, assuming Apple can get the rights to use the name there. Anyway, hopefully it'll be over soon. Pretty boring to see the topic arise almost everywhere you go.
Actualy cisco has started attacking them from a number of fronts with a number of new law sutes, i personly think apples unlikly to win and will end up with the apple phone, in the same way they have appleTV insted of the Itv... although on that one, they really didnt have a chance "/

[GommeInc]

In an debates forum you cant say that statistics are wrong and say that it is more like 30&#37; because you see a lot of other mp3 players.
You never did answer my question. You complain about people making up stats, yet you do it yourself? Isn't it common sense that if there is more types of MP3 player compared to an iPod, there would be less percentage of iPods being used as a whole?


Here is a quote from Wiki to help you understand.
I am not in the US, and I am talking about World Wide. Globally, there are less iPods than other MP3 Players.


iPods are just at expensive as other high quality mp3 players like the Zune and others.
Yes, iPod are cheap (sarcasm). Here is my proof that they're not:

Play.com
iPod Video 30GB = &#163;179.99 Delivered
iPod Nano 8GB = &#163;149.99 Delivered
Creative Zen Vision: M 30GB = &#163;164.99 Delivered
SanDisk Sansa E280 8GB = &#163;129.99 Delivered

Amazon.co.uk
iPod Video 30GB = &#163;166.00
iPod Nano 8GB = &#163;154.00
Creative Zen Vision: M = &#163;164.18
Creative Zen MicroPhoto 8GB = &#163;140.00
Philips 30GB = &#163;99.99 (was &#163;150).

Back to my original argument of the sound quality, for what you get with an iPod, you can get for cheaper and better with any other company. The headphones you get are useless with an iPod, the design of them are not built for sound.


It isnt strange, it is intuative. A full web browser is better then a mobile one. And because the screen is big enough you can do that.

That's not a very good feature really... What if you want to view an image from the side which has something written on which you cannot easily view normally?

[BL!NKEY]

It estimates Apple's current iPod worldwide penetration rate of the consumer PC installed base to be a mere 10.3 percent, assuming only one iPod is tied to each personal computer. With nearly 90 percent of potential market share remaining and Apple's defensible competitive position, the firm believes the iPod will eventually surpass Sony's magical sales mark of 309 million Walkman and Discman players by the year 2009.

You explained the statistic wrong. The 10.3% means that out of every 10 computers globaly about one of them has an iPod. This is not counting people who own more then one iPod and only one computer. I can see that that statistic is right. But that doesnt mean that out of every mp3 player, only 10.3% are iPods.


You never did answer my question. You complain about people making up stats, yet you do it yourself? Isn't it common sense that if there is more types of MP3 player compared to an iPod, there would be less percentage of iPods being used as a whole?

I am not in the US, and I am talking about World Wide. Globally, there are less iPods than other MP3 Players.

You are true if you take all the iPods in the world there are less of them them all the other mp3 players. But if you take every kind of mp3 player and see what one there is the most of. You will find that iPods are the most popular. And I got all my stats from Wiki. If there is a stat I gave which you question please show me and I will link you to the source.



Yes, iPod are cheap (sarcasm). Here is my proof that they're not:

Play.com
iPod Video 30GB = £179.99 Delivered
iPod Nano 8GB = £149.99 Delivered
Creative Zen Vision: M 30GB = £164.99 Delivered
SanDisk Sansa E280 8GB = £129.99 Delivered

Amazon.co.uk
iPod Video 30GB = £166.00
iPod Nano 8GB = £154.00
Creative Zen Vision: M = £164.18
Creative Zen MicroPhoto 8GB = £140.00
Philips 30GB = £99.99 (was £150).

They are relativly closly priced. Just about a £15.00 difference. If they were like twice the price then I could see where you would be comming from. The iPod is more popular so they can charge a little more and get away with it. Creative needs to be competative to keep up in the market.


Back to my original argument of the sound quality, for what you get with an iPod, you can get for cheaper and better with any other company. The headphones you get are useless with an iPod, the design of them are not built for sound.

Cheaper and better with any other company? I am sure most headphone companies make headphones worse then iPods. Where do you get that iPod headphones are not built for sound? Most headphones were built with sound in mind. I used my iPod headphones for a while untill I lost them but there were certantly not useless.




That's not a very good feature really... What if you want to view an image from the side which has something written on which you cannot easily view normally?

I dont know that many internet sites that have images you need to view from the side. And if you did you could just turn your head like you would to read it on a computer. But maybe there is a image rotate option in the iPhone.

[TheLastShadow]

They should make an INet. With Internet included :)

[GommeInc]

They are relativly closly priced. Just about a &#163;15.00 difference. If they were like twice the price then I could see where you would be comming from. The iPod is more popular so they can charge a little more and get away with it. Creative needs to be competative to keep up in the market.
My point seems to have gone amiss with you. For what you get for an iPod, you can get better with another company for cheaper. Better software, like Sony, better designed headphones e.g. Sony, Creative etc, better hardware, better dynamic design.

Better software = Not prone to crashing and plays the music like you expect to here from speakers. Most companies also come with something called "Smart Volume," which basically sorts out a song when you are listening to it loudly, getting rid of disdortion. Apple never thought of this and don't use it, which is another reason the sound quality is, terrible.

Better designed headphones = Get your iPod now and have a look at the headphones. Look at the bit which stays outside when you have it in. Notice there are no holes outside. This is one reason the sound quality is yet again useless. Speakers need to breathe, iPod don't give their speakers the chance to. Look at a subwoofer and you'll notice you get hit by alot of air, this is all thanks to the speaker being allow to breathe and can do so quite happily until it is blocked, which will reduce the quality.

Better hardware = One that isn't prone to crashing every now and again. Apple seem to not know what bug testing is. If they did this, maybe their products wouldn't be so prone to dying. Through my experiences with them, they sometimes descide not to turn off when the play/pause button is pressed, don't do anything and just lock or half work and half not.

Dynamic design = Style etc come down in this. iPod seem to design their iPods as squares or rectangles that don't slide into pockets so well. The Nano's surface is awful. Normally something that is pocket sized would be made out of something that isn't rough, but smooth.

So in the end, when you buy an iPod, you are paying only about &#163;10-&#163;15 more, but when you think of everything together with all the problems iPods have, you are preobably being ripped off at about &#163;50 considering they still need to conquer music. They seem to have conquered marketing sales quite well though, I give them 8/10 for that.


Cheaper and better with any other company? I am sure most headphone companies make headphones worse then iPods. Where do you get that iPod headphones are not built for sound? Most headphones were built with sound in mind. I used my iPod headphones for a while untill I lost them but there were certantly not useless.
I wouldn't say the iPod are built for sound? The design is wrong, as stated above. Obviously they were built for sound, but looking at them and sometimes using them, they're inferior to most headphones which are obviously better at their job than iPods.


I dont know that many internet sites that have images you need to view from the side. And if you did you could just turn your head like you would to read it on a computer. But maybe there is a image rotate option in the iPhone.
Would be a good idea.

[Oni]

My point seems to have gone amiss with you. For what you get for an iPod, you can get better with another company for cheaper. Better software, like Sony, better designed headphones e.g. Sony, Creative etc, better hardware, better dynamic design.

Better software = Not prone to crashing and plays the music like you expect to here from speakers. Most companies also come with something called "Smart Volume," which basically sorts out a song when you are listening to it loudly, getting rid of disdortion. Apple never thought of this and don't use it, which is another reason the sound quality is, terrible.

Better designed headphones = Get your iPod now and have a look at the headphones. Look at the bit which stays outside when you have it in. Notice there are no holes outside. This is one reason the sound quality is yet again useless. Speakers need to breathe, iPod don't give their speakers the chance to. Look at a subwoofer and you'll notice you get hit by alot of air, this is all thanks to the speaker being allow to breathe and can do so quite happily until it is blocked, which will reduce the quality.

Better hardware = One that isn't prone to crashing every now and again. Apple seem to not know what bug testing is. If they did this, maybe their products wouldn't be so prone to dying. Through my experiences with them, they sometimes descide not to turn off when the play/pause button is pressed, don't do anything and just lock or half work and half not.

Dynamic design = Style etc come down in this. iPod seem to design their iPods as squares or rectangles that don't slide into pockets so well. The Nano's surface is awful. Normally something that is pocket sized would be made out of something that isn't rough, but smooth.

So in the end, when you buy an iPod, you are paying only about £10-£15 more, but when you think of everything together with all the problems iPods have, you are preobably being ripped off at about £50 considering they still need to conquer music. They seem to have conquered marketing sales quite well though, I give them 8/10 for that.


I wouldn't say the iPod are built for sound? The design is wrong, as stated above. Obviously they were built for sound, but looking at them and sometimes using them, they're inferior to most headphones which are obviously better at their job than iPods.


Would be a good idea.
There is lol its on the video.
Id say ipods have the most usable interface and are the most well supported but they are largely overpriced.

[HUGECOOL]

My point was rearangeing the content is a valid thing to do. Your argument is that is not how a website was intened to be viewed. I then pointed out websites were never intened to be viewed via beeing zoomed in to on a specific place in order to be able to read the content. The websites use shown also requre to be modifed even if by the phone anyway, since its scaleing option does not compily with the websites design, aka the resolution the device is rendering the website as is not the actual device resolition, there is alot of rescaleing going on. sites that have been designed to resize themselves to smaller browsers, then loose this functionality anyway, and are made for no good reason unreable by the rescaled rendering used.

So the website is still altered to the phone.

The diffence is, the Iphone does the changes in the browser, wasteing resorces. The opera system does this on its own servers, saveing resources and meaning less data has to be transfer an advantage on low bandwidth devices which are what most phones are. Especaly the Iphone which has far slower bandiwidth than most phones around hence why it cant even connect to a 3g network.
The only thing I was explaining in my reasoning was that websites are viewed entirely, zooming in or not. Pointing out that websites aren't viewed by means of zooming in on a regular browser is just being pedantic to have a response. "/

The phone also has integrated wifi, so it automatically switches to a wireless network when available, to provide for faster data transfer as opposed to the phone network speed, so its not as if its really a low-bandwith device all the time. 3G is also said to be on the roadmap later on. Since most of people's media will already be on the phone, it wasn't seen as a neccesary component of the phone, although it is nice to have.


And i explained it to you.
Not really. You made a list consisting of your opinion about the iPhone's capabilities and downsides. My original suggestion was that you find how the iPhone's features function since you're just arguing on assumptions about its capabilities, one of them being that you assumed the browser had no zooming capabilites and text would be very hard to read.


I quoth:
Apple Insider
It estimates Apple's current iPod worldwide penetration rate of the consumer PC installed base to be a mere 10.3 percent, assuming only one iPod is tied to each personal computer. With nearly 90 percent of potential market share remaining and Apple's defensible competitive position, the firm believes the iPod will eventually surpass Sony's magical sales mark of 309 million Walkman and Discman players by the year 2009.
Thats the consumer PC installed base pecent. You specifically said the worldwide MP3 market share. Later on in the article, a graph was shown with these statistics for the year 2004-05.

http://images.appleinsider.com/cs-05-23-06-2.gif

The 10 percent you mentioned is number of iPod owners on the consumer PC installed base of 387 million, not the worldwide mp3 market share.


o.0 no its a perfectly valid arguemnt deductive reasoning
Itunes = desktop software
Ipod = portable mp3 playing device.
Thefore Ipods do not run on Itunes .
The argument was valid, but it was also pointless, is what I'm trying to say. I did not explain myself clearly, but the statement was not one that needed an argument.


No i mean the sort of crap like the "apple are immune to all virus's" (an outright lie and makeing consumers ignorant of common sence safty practises.)
In that case, your previous statement was really vague. I was talking about people being familiar with how an iPod works so using an iPhone will deliver the same user-friendly experience, which is what I was talking about when I mentioned Apple's marketing strategy- advertising devices that work with little knowledge of how the device itself works. (Although I admit that their mac commercials tend to stretch the truth or exaggerate in some cases)


Vista is superior to OSX
XP is Superior to OSX
vender freedom on hardware is supeior to vender locking as with mac's

How the hell can you deduce if i choose the supeior product that id want a mac?
You said, "Plus i tend to buy better things, not one im familur with."

Obviously, you're not familiar with Mac OS X, or using it is not something you'd normally do. However, you are familiar with Windows XP, which would be eliminated as an option because you're already familiar with it. I'm not about to argue about which operating system is superior to which, so I'll let a website do it for me. http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php


Go look insight up in a dictonary...
Then let me rephrase myself;

Please provide a list containing all the flaws you have personally encountered while using with the Mac OS X application, Mail. Since I have never used said application, it would only seem logical that I ask you about its flaws since you've used it for more time than I have, and in result, have acquired knowledge of flaws it posseses through first-hand experience.


Most devices this far havent really had any want nore need to incorpate a multiple-touch touchscreen. Since in normal circumstances its not really seen as very useful. For exsample it would be like windows haveing two mouse pointers (although this infact could have a possible use, and has a product for it, so is really only here as a persudo exsample, and does still apply to portable devices)
Since most pdas etc have taken there design from computer based interaction.
So apple is trying somthing pretty new here, for better or worse, in the way it intends people to navigate it "/
The reason the mobile industry has never actually used this technology is because most devices with tactile interfaces are usually operated via stylus, and it would be illogical to have multi-touch on an device that only allows for one touch command at a time. However, because the iPhone uses human touch as the input interface, being able to do several things on the screen simultaneously (such as zooming in on a picture by making a reverse pinching motion on the screen) is one of the things that separates the iPhone from a normal stylus PDA.

[BL!NKEY]

Better designed headphones = Get your iPod now and have a look at the headphones. Look at the bit which stays outside when you have it in. Notice there are no holes outside. This is one reason the sound quality is yet again useless. Speakers need to breathe, iPod don't give their speakers the chance to. Look at a subwoofer and you'll notice you get hit by alot of air, this is all thanks to the speaker being allow to breathe and can do so quite happily until it is blocked, which will reduce the quality.

I took your advice and my headphones do have holes on the outside.

http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/images/products/250/APP/M9128G-A.jpg

I didnt take a picture but here is one i found on the web. They came with my 15 gb touch wheel iPod which I still have and works.


Better hardware = One that isn't prone to crashing every now and again. Apple seem to not know what bug testing is. If they did this, maybe their products wouldn't be so prone to dying. Through my experiences with them, they sometimes descide not to turn off when the play/pause button is pressed, don't do anything and just lock or half work and half not.


Ok once while you were driving your friend couldnt turn off his iPod and you dont even remember what button he was pressing. That does not mean that every iPod crashes and apple has never bug tested them because they frequently come out with softwear updates for iPods.


Dynamic design = Style etc come down in this. iPod seem to design their iPods as squares or rectangles that don't slide into pockets so well. The Nano's surface is awful. Normally something that is pocket sized would be made out of something that isn't rough, but smooth.

Most phones are squares or rectangles. Take example the popular motorolla razor. Just because it is square doesnt mean that it has no style. iPods are known for their design and style.

[GommeInc]

I took your advice and my headphones do have holes on the outside.

http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/images/products/250/APP/M9128G-A.jpg

I didnt take a picture but here is one i found on the web. They came with my 15 gb touch wheel iPod which I still have and works.
Hmmmm, fascinating. It seems Apple have found out the flaw in their headphone design :D I suppose there goes my argument about badly designed headphones. Now they just need to fix their sound quality in the actual media files that get transferred into the iPod.


Ok once while you were driving your friend couldnt turn off his iPod and you dont even remember what button he was pressing. That does not mean that every iPod crashes and apple has never bug tested them because they frequently come out with softwear updates for iPods.
I can't exactly pay close attention while driving, and he has played with iPods before so I expect he'll know how to turn one off, so this is kinda irrelevant. All I know is that he was pressing the bottom button on the wheel and the screen kept flashing on and off.

Be aware that his iPod is only a few weeks old? And you can't exactly upgrade hardware, but software running on hardware. So the iPods amazing system is flawed until they fix it in new versions, which is kinda a bad way to look at things, they should fix the errors before marketing them, not during the sales. Creative mastered this with only one MP3 player and you never need to update your player unless you need to do a system restore on it, which is incredibly rare...


Most phones are squares or rectangles. Take example the popular motorolla razor. Just because it is square doesnt mean that it has no style. iPods are known for their design and style.
I never said that it had much to do with style as in looks. I meant how it was styled to go into pockets easily. The iPod is blocky and hardly smooth enough to full into a pocket as nicely as a Motorola, Zen or any other phone. Ipods design and style doesn't do anything for me. A circle in the middle of a rectangle is hardly interesting to look at?

[Luckyrare]

heh, I dont see how it can be a good/bad idea. I would buy one, they are good value for what you get and its awesome

[BL!NKEY]

Looks like Apple isnt doing too bad.

They just announced today that they shiped 21 million iPods during the last quarter.


Revenue for the quarter hit a record, reaching $7.1 billion, up 24 percent from $5.7 billion the previous year.

Their net income for the last quarter was over a billion.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&Date=20070117&ID=6352726

or

http://www.forbes.com/home/markets/2007/01/17/apple-jobs-earnings-markets-equity-cx_mk_0117markets11.html

[GommeInc]

http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6151233-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

Looks like the iPhone has competition :rolleyes: I like the looks of those phones compared to the iPhone. They actually have good names "/

Apple never seem to learn:

Source: http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6151233-6.html?tag=ne.gall.pg


The phone is the basis of a lawsuit filed by Cisco that charges Apple with infringing on its iPhone trademark. Cisco obtained the trademark in 2000 when it acquired Infogear, a small Redwood City, Calif., start-up that developed consumer devices that allowed people to easily access the Internet without a PC.

They never learn that stealing doesn't come free. Yet another Apple product with a law suit.

[---MAD---]

I agree with GommeInc about the Ipod design. It really is terrible and is not designed to slide into your pocket or even be comfortable in your pocket unless you buy the tacky shuffles :).

[BL!NKEY]

http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6151233-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

Looks like the iPhone has competition :rolleyes: I like the looks of those phones compared to the iPhone. They actually have good names "/

Apple never seem to learn:

Source: http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6151233-6.html?tag=ne.gall.pg



They never learn that stealing doesn't come free. Yet another Apple product with a law suit.

Most of those phones are concept phones.

The prada one looks nice but it will cost $776.

Apple was in communication with Cisco about the iPhone trademark and it will be resolved soon. Apple does own the trademark in most of Europe.

The looks of those concept phones look good but they are made to look good. They are not real. They are made to have people say woa that looks cool. Engineers have not actually figured out how to put them together or even tried.

And why do you think the other phones have a better name then the iPhone. It is a good name because it is recognizeable (sp?) and people know it is made by the same company that made their iPod.

[GommeInc]

Most of those phones are concept phones.

The prada one looks nice but it will cost $776.
Considering it is a designer name, I am not surprised one bit.



Apple was in communication with Cisco about the iPhone trademark and it will be resolved soon. Apple does own the trademark in most of Europe.
What strikes me is that Apple seem to copy patent technology off other companies and call it their own. They did it with Creative, and now a company who have had the trademark of iPhone since 2000.


The looks of those concept phones look good but they are made to look good. They are not real. They are made to have people say woa that looks cool. Engineers have not actually figured out how to put them together or even tried.
http://news.com.com/1606-12994-6150132.html

They look like they're trying, and they brought the touch sensitive pad on laptops to life...

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/10/08/nokias-aeon-full-surface-screen-cellphone-concept/

They're planning on making the phone, which looks quite impressive. And on the Nokia website it is in the Development pages, so they're obviously planning on it (note that the above link dates back to October last year).


And why do you think the other phones have a better name then the iPhone. It is a good name because it is recognizeable (sp?) and people know it is made by the same company that made their iPod.
It's just an over-used term now. I have noticed they can't use the name "iTV" because the broadcasting company in the UK, ITV, is already using it. I prefer a name that has had some thought to it, like Aeon, Zen, Vaio. Not something made simple so an idiot can easily remember what it is.

[BL!NKEY]

Considering it is a designer name, I am not surprised one bit.

You were arguing that the iPod is expensive. The iPod can be more expensive because it is made by Apple. Apple like prada can offer a device that is more expensive because people will pay more for it because of the brand name.



What strikes me is that Apple seem to copy patent technology off other companies and call it their own. They did it with Creative, and now a company who have had the trademark of iPhone since 2000.

The name iPhone isnt patent technology. It is a name. Cisco and Apple's iPhone are not that similar besides they are used as some sort of phone.


http://news.com.com/1606-12994-6150132.html

They look like they're trying, and they brought the touch sensitive pad on laptops to life...

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/10/08/nokias-aeon-full-surface-screen-cellphone-concept/

Those phones are really cool and I would want one just as much as an iPhone. Japan has a lot better phones them the rest of the world.

The debate is, Is the iPhone a good idea. And I think it is because in the future technology like this is going to be everywhere.


They're planning on making the phone, which looks quite impressive. And on the Nokia website it is in the Development pages, so they're obviously planning on it (note that the above link dates back to October last year).


It's just an over-used term now. I have noticed they can't use the name "iTV" because the broadcasting company in the UK, ITV, is already using it. I prefer a name that has had some thought to it, like Aeon, Zen, Vaio. Not something made simple so an idiot can easily remember what it is.


They want the phone name to be simple so an idiot can remember because most of the people who buy iPods, phones and stuff dont know much about technology. They like their iPod and if there is a phone made by the same company they will get it. That is one reason Cisco made their phone called the iPhone. Some people might think it is made by the same company as iPods and get it.

Here is an article from PC Mag about a first hand encounter with an iPhone. They are not Apple bias because it is PC mag. Obviously they know more about this subject because none of us on habbox have actually touched or played around with an iPhone.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2082435,00.asp

[GommeInc]

You were arguing that the iPod is expensive. The iPod can be more expensive because it is made by Apple. Apple like prada can offer a device that is more expensive because people will pay more for it because of the brand name.
Meh, suppose so. Apple might aswell reap the rewards with their name from idiots wanting to buy anything with i or apple on. Like people who buy clothes that specifically have to have Prada or Calvin Klein.



The name iPhone isnt patent technology. It is a name. Cisco and Apple's iPhone are not that similar besides they are used as some sort of phone.
I never said the name 'iPhone' is patent technology? The other comapyn that has had the name iPhone has had it since 2000? The patent technology they stole is the touch screen? Like the scrolling action they stole from Creative. Perhaps I could of made myself more clear.

Fact remains, Cisco created the iPhone, but Apple want to over-look this with their trademark "i" infront of anything. Apparently, Nortel has joined Cisco is sueing Apple for stealing ideas from their iPhone.


Those phones are really cool and I would want one just as much as an iPhone. Japan has a lot better phones them the rest of the world.
It makes me sick with jealousy too :P They have such amazing stuff over there!


The debate is, Is the iPhone a good idea. And I think it is because in the future technology like this is going to be everywhere.
Apple will, of course, go the same way with other companies. Their iPod was just an Apple branded MP3 player, they were just 10 years late in developing into the music industry and creating one.

The iPhone isn't going to revolutionise the Phone Industry, it is just going to be another phone that is following other phone ideas. A touch screen, no more buttons, internet, MP3 player and a camera.

Nothing new there "/ They've already been proved that they're not the first company to think up the touch-screen idea, Cisco thought it up by the looks of it. I bet one of the idea makers at Apple said

"I had an amazing dream last night! (I was actually on the net looking for ideas."
"We should create a phone that has a touchscreen (the idea came from Cisco, actually.)"


They want the phone name to be simple so an idiot can remember because most of the people who buy iPods, phones and stuff dont know much about technology. They like their iPod and if there is a phone made by the same company they will get it. That is one reason Cisco made their phone called the iPhone. Some people might think it is made by the same company as iPods and get it.
Remebering a name and knowing about technology are different to each other, but I can see your point. Simple people need simple names. I guess that topic just got leaked into and an argument was caused.

Cisco probably didn't make the name iPhone because of Apple. I don't even think the iPod was around then "/ There are companies and other things that have 'i' infront of their brand. Like the MP3 player iRiver?


Here is an article from PC Mag about a first hand encounter with an iPhone. They are not Apple bias because it is PC mag. Obviously they know more about this subject because none of us on habbox have actually touched or played around with an iPhone.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2082435,00.asp

Of course they would get excited about it. Anyone would get excited about new technology, even though Cisco founded it. The technology hasn't got much to do with Apple Hardware either, like a Mac does, it's a phone "/

[HUGECOOL]

Just some clarifications on these points..


Fact remains, Cisco created the iPhone, but Apple want to over-look this with their trademark "i" infront of anything. Apparently, Nortel has joined Cisco is sueing Apple for stealing ideas from their iPhone.

Nothing new there "/ They've already been proved that they're not the first company to think up the touch-screen idea, Cisco thought it up by the looks of it. I bet one of the idea makers at Apple said

"I had an amazing dream last night! (I was actually on the net looking for ideas."
"We should create a phone that has a touchscreen (the idea came from Cisco, actually.)"

Cisco probably didn't make the name iPhone because of Apple. I don't even think the iPod was around then "/ There are companies and other things that have 'i' infront of their brand. Like the MP3 player iRiver?

Of course they would get excited about it. Anyone would get excited about new technology, even though Cisco founded it. The technology hasn't got much to do with Apple Hardware either, like a Mac does, it's a phone
The iPhone trademark did not originally belong to Cisco. InfoGear was the original owner of the trademark and the product back in 1997. However, because Cisco bought InfoGear in 2000, it also acquired the iPhone trademark. Support for the original InfoGear iPhone was discontinued in 2001. Later on, Cisco also acquired Linksys in 2003 and which then re branded one of their phone models to the iPhone name in order to keep using the trademark under the Declaration of Use requirements (http://www.everythingiphone.com/news/apple/did-cisco-lose-the-iphone-trademark-2007011388/). (The phone used was originally just referred to as the CIT400 (http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-CIT400-Dual-Mode-Telephony-Integrated/dp/B000JI75GU)). So Cisco did not actually make the iPhone. They just bought companies and acquired trademarks.

[GommeInc]

Just some clarifications on these points..

The iPhone trademark did not originally belong to Cisco. InfoGear was the original owner of the trademark and the product back in 1997. However, because Cisco bought InfoGear in 2000, it also acquired the iPhone trademark. Support for the original InfoGear iPhone was discontinued in 2001. Later on, Cisco also acquired Linksys in 2003 and which then re branded one of their phone models to the iPhone name in order to keep using the trademark under the Declaration of Use requirements (http://www.everythingiphone.com/news/apple/did-cisco-lose-the-iphone-trademark-2007011388/). (The phone used was originally just referred to as the CIT400 (http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-CIT400-Dual-Mode-Telephony-Integrated/dp/B000JI75GU)). So Cisco did not actually make the iPhone. They just bought companies and acquired trademarks.

Excellent research there, but Cisco are still the owners of it "/

[HUGECOOL]

Excellent research there, but Cisco are still the owners of it "/
I never argued that Cisco Systems wasn't the owner of the iPhone trademark. I'm clarifying your posts, which imply that Cisco were the original creators of the iPhone and its capabilities, which isn't the case.

[Pawf]

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if these have already been said:

To the people saying they should stick to computers and music:
What if Apple had "just stuck to computers" before they made the iPod? The music industry would be very different including how we listen to music.

Companies need to expand and Apple are more than capable of bigger things which brings me to my next point...

To the people saying Apple are taking too much on:
Are you basing this on actual figures denoting a fall in sales? If so I'd like to see them. Apple had 60% of the market share of MP3 players over Christmas and in the previous quarter they had around a 10% increase in sales of Macs. They keep their target audience satisfied by releasing frequent major updates (unlike Microsoft) which brings me on to my next point...

To the people saying that it doesn't attract their target audience:
What do you think the target audience is? It's not young adults as someone said earlier. The iPod factor surely appeals to young people but the phone itself, business-like featuring stock widgets and the like, is aimed at an older audience. I think that the ease of use it offers as well as the entertainment factors make it appealing to the target audience.

In conclusion:
It's a beautiful phone with innovative and revolutionary ideas and I'm definately going to buy it. Also I love Apple :P

[GommeInc]

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if these have already been said:

To the people saying they should stick to computers and music:
What if Apple had "just stuck to computers" before they made the iPod? The music industry would be very different including how we listen to music.
The music industry will just have one less company. The MP3 play that the Apple is modelled on, like others, would still be in existence. The iPod was just another blocky MP3 player. Creative brought out the first.


To the people saying Apple are taking too much on:
Are you basing this on actual figures denoting a fall in sales? If so I'd like to see them. Apple had 60&#37; of the market share of MP3 players over Christmas and in the previous quarter they had around a 10% increase in sales of Macs. They keep their target audience satisfied by releasing frequent major updates (unlike Microsoft) which brings me on to my next point...
Surely releasing frequent updates strongly hints that Macs are unreliable? Microsoft release a right amount of updates. I'd rather have the amount Microsoft have than an update a day which would become annoying "/


To the people saying that it doesn't attract their target audience:
What do you think the target audience is? It's not young adults as someone said earlier. The iPod factor surely appeals to young people but the phone itself, business-like featuring stock widgets and the like, is aimed at an older audience. I think that the ease of use it offers as well as the entertainment factors make it appealing to the target audience.
It is said somewhere that the iPhone isn't a good phone for business men and women, I'll find the source soon.


In conclusion:
It's a beautiful phone with innovative and revolutionary ideas and I'm definately going to buy it. Also I love Apple :P
It isn't revolutionary. Phones with an MP3 player, browser and the like have been around for years. The touchscreen is an idea taken from a phone which has been in the making for a while now. Only thing revolutionary is that it is from Apple and it is the revelution that Apple are making a phone...

[BL!NKEY]

Surely releasing frequent updates strongly hints that Macs are unreliable? Microsoft release a right amount of updates. I'd rather have the amount Microsoft have than an update a day which would become annoying "/


The release of frequent updates means that it is harder to make viruses for macs. They patch bug or vulnerabilities. You dont have to download the update which is usualy once every few months. Not every day. But it is free and all you have to do is restart your computer.


But you would rather have a opperating system which doesnt update the OS to fix bugs and vulnerabilities because it is a waste of your time to download them.

[HUGECOOL]

The music industry will just have one less company. The MP3 play that the Apple is modelled on, like others, would still be in existence. The iPod was just another blocky MP3 player. Creative brought out the first.
The iPod popularized mp3 players where others had failed to do so. CD players were pretty much preferred by everyone at the time (even though I was using a MiniDisc player at the time, which is horrible btw), but the iPod showed how convenient it was to use an mp3 player. Besides, at the time, Microsoft wasn't too keen on how other mp3 players functioned, especially Creative's. (source (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=MSFT:US&sid=anhaQOstu83g))



Surely releasing frequent updates strongly hints that Macs are unreliable? Microsoft release a right amount of updates. I'd rather have the amount Microsoft have than an update a day which would become annoying "/Unless you're running Linux, or some other esoteric operating system, you shouldn't complain about updates. And saying Apple releases daily updates is just exaggerating. o_O Besides, once you upgrade to Vista, MS is already planning to release a service pack for you to download. (source (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37125)) Sound convenient? :rolleyes: And what's a 'right amount of downloads'? Surely any operating system that needs to release patches is flawed, let alone a service pack that is 'recommended' (read: required) for added security. (XP SP 2 sound familiar?)


It is said somewhere that the iPhone isn't a good phone for business men and women, I'll find the source soon.It isn't intended to be a business phone. It's a multimedia phone that will be mostly targeted at, well, people who want a multimedia phone. :P Sure, it has some functionality that might benefit a business person, but only for added convenience.



It isn't revolutionary. Phones with an MP3 player, browser and the like have been around for years. The touchscreen is an idea taken from a phone which has been in the making for a while now. Only thing revolutionary is that it is from Apple and it is the revelution that Apple are making a phone...The iPhone is not different in the technology. It's the way that technology is implemented and the kind of technology that is integrated into one small package that makes it stand out. Creating a flowing user interface that users can easily work out and understand is what I believe will make it popular.

[velocity]

i have the 2 hour long presentation on my ipod video.

if you've seen it, you'll realise its an amazing peice of technology, its the only phone not to use WAP to get the internet, everything has been taken into consideration.

download the FREE video off itunes. that says it all,.

[GommeInc]

The release of frequent updates means that it is harder to make viruses for macs. They patch bug or vulnerabilities. You dont have to download the update which is usualy once every few months. Not every day. But it is free and all you have to do is restart your computer.


But you would rather have a opperating system which doesnt update the OS to fix bugs and vulnerabilities because it is a waste of your time to download them.
So updates are once a month? Windows Updates are just more than a month each update "/ Windows Updates free and all you need to do is restart the PC, or you can sometimes do updates while doing other things, and it won't need to restart?



The iPod popularized mp3 players where others had failed to do so. CD players were pretty much preferred by everyone at the time (even though I was using a MiniDisc player at the time, which is horrible btw), but the iPod showed how convenient it was to use an mp3 player. Besides, at the time, Microsoft wasn't too keen on how other mp3 players functioned, especially Creative's. (source (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=MSFT:US&sid=anhaQOstu83g))
Microsoft probably wasn't too keen at the time, but look at how well they're doing now. Live for the future, not the past.


Unless you're running Linux, or some other esoteric operating system, you shouldn't complain about updates. And saying Apple releases daily updates is just exaggerating. o_O Besides, once you upgrade to Vista, MS is already planning to release a service pack for you to download. (source (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37125)) Sound convenient? :rolleyes: And what's a 'right amount of downloads'? Surely any operating system that needs to release patches is flawed, let alone a service pack that is 'recommended' (read: required) for added security. (XP SP 2 sound familiar?)
It isn't intended to be a business phone. It's a multimedia phone that will be mostly targeted at, well, people who want a multimedia phone. :P Sure, it has some functionality that might benefit a business person, but only for added convenience.
A good Operating System would surely fix a load of bugs in one go and never need repairing until they are old and obsolete. Windows does this which is why you don't get as many as Apple. Although it maybe an exaggeration, it still hints you get alot, otherwise you would get less of an exaggeration.

You can't really allow a child or minor with a phone like that? It's far too expensive and is asking to be stolen if you wave it about infront of people.


The iPhone is not different in the technology. It's the way that technology is implemented and the kind of technology that is integrated into one small package that makes it stand out. Creating a flowing user interface that users can easily work out and understand is what I believe will make it popular.
So how comes the video of the snobbish boss of Apple hints so strongly it is new technology? They always do this with a new release, over glorify and make it seem new, when it isn't "/ I wouldn't say it is easier to be honest, you have to use more fingers making it extra fiddly to navigate around the phone. While with buttons you only need one finger and can probably get to the menu you want 5 times faster. Also, the iPhone is hardly a small package "/ You can get other phones which are far smaller than the iPhone which hold the same and sometimes more than what it has.

Can the iPhone actually fit in a trouser pocket is what I am wondering now"/

[velocity]

So updates are once a month? Windows Updates are just more than a month each update "/ Windows Updates free and all you need to do is restart the PC, or you can sometimes do updates while doing other things, and it won't need to restart?

The iphone updates itself like an ipod, on itunes.

[GommeInc]

The iphone updates itself like an ipod, on itunes.
We were discussing Macs ;) I never knew iPods needed updates "/ You don't need them with other MP3 players unless it crashes somehow and you need to system restore it "/

And if the iPhone was amazing, surely it could update itself using the net, aswell as iTunes?

[-Wolverine]

I never knew iPods needed updates "/ You don't need them with other MP3 players unless it crashes somehow and you need to system restore it "/

iTunes automatically updates your iPod when there's a new version of iTunes, or if you have a new song or something.

[GommeInc]

That confuses me. I know what you wrote about, but I don't see why the iPod needs updating. Doesn't iTune need to be one updated, not the iPod, or am I just learning iTunes is the software in an iPod that plays the music.

[BL!NKEY]

That confuses me. I know what you wrote about, but I don't see why the iPod needs updating. Doesn't iTune need to be one updated, not the iPod, or am I just learning iTunes is the software in an iPod that plays the music.

You update the music mostly. Maybe a few times a year you update the actually iPod software like new games or bug patches.

itunes is not the software in the iPod.

[HUGECOOL]

Microsoft probably wasn't too keen at the time, but look at how well they're doing now. Live for the future, not the past.How well with what? The Zune? lol (2&#37; market share, woohoo!)

And this is happening now, the present. Microsoft is facing an antitrust class action because of these past events. :rolleyes:


A good Operating System would surely fix a load of bugs in one go and never need repairing until they are old and obsolete. Windows does this which is why you don't get as many as Apple. Although it maybe an exaggeration, it still hints you get alot, otherwise you would get less of an exaggeration.wait, lol, how would you even know how many updates Macs get compared to Windows machines? First of all, you don't own a Mac, therefore, it would not be possible for you to juxtapose update intervals or the content they contain. oO I, however, own both operating systems and work on both so I know by first-hand experience how often updates occur. And no, Windows updates doesn't fix everything all at once because otherwise no other updates would've happened after Service pack 2. ;/


You can't really allow a child or minor with a phone like that? It's far too expensive and is asking to be stolen if you wave it about infront of people.yeah haha, that why no parents has ever bought their children iPods, ranging from $80-350, and $500 for the 4th gen ones. :\


So how comes the video of the snobbish boss of Apple hints so strongly it is new technology? They always do this with a new release, over glorify and make it seem new, when it isn't "/It's called building hype, lol. All companies do this, Apple just shows it in a less subtle way. And even so, multi-touch is a new technology to the mobile industry.

I wouldn't say it is easier to be honest, you have to use more fingers making it extra fiddly to navigate around the phone. While with buttons you only need one finger and can probably get to the menu you want 5 times faster.Of course you need more fingers! I'm planning on growing 6 extra digits to use my iPhone. :)

Kidding aside, you're comparing a normal simple phone to a phone with a touch screen. Compare the iPhone to a smart phone, which requires 'more fingers' to operate. So, fix your comparisons. That would be like comparing a tablet-only laptop to a regular laptop.

Also, the iPhone is hardly a small package "/ You can get other phones which are far smaller than the iPhone which hold the same and sometimes more than what it has.show me a slim phone with 8GB of internal flash memory + multi-touch screen with a full-featured browser, and I'll be a happy. :)


Can the iPhone actually fit in a trouser pocket is what I am wondering now"/Why would you wonder that? I'm sure you're not planning on buying one since you're so bent on Apple's downfall, lol.

That confuses me. I know what you wrote about, but I don't see why the iPod needs updating. Doesn't iTune need to be one updated, not the iPod, or am I just learning iTunes is the software in an iPod that plays the music.
Most mp3 players and phones alike these days require firmware updates for patches or even added functionality, or even removal of functionality. The iPod has updates as does the Zune, Creative's mp3 players, and others as well.

[GommeInc]

How well with what? The Zune? lol (2&#37; market share, woohoo!)
I was generalising the whole, chunky MP3 players. Do they have an actual name? Because the orignal MP3 player was like a Memory Stick you just put in the PC.


And this is happening now, the present. Microsoft is facing an antitrust class action because of these past events. :rolleyes:
What events? The Zune is hardly anything to make people lose trust? They're not that bad are they :s


Wait, lol, how would you even know how many updates Macs get compared to Windows machines? First of all, you don't own a Mac, therefore, it would not be possible for you to juxtapose update intervals or the content they contain. oO I, however, own both operating systems and work on both so I know by first-hand experience how often updates occur. And no, Windows updates doesn't fix everything all at once because otherwise no other updates would've happened after Service pack 2. ;/
Considering someone just generalised the whole Mac updating times, it gives me a rough idea how often they update. I am guessing from 1 month to a week "/ You seem to have mis-read what I wrote, I said old and obsolete. Updates get old and a better one comes along to replace, which is why Windows gets its updates still ;)


yeah haha, that why no parents has ever bought their children iPods, ranging from $80-350, and $500 for the 4th gen ones. :\
iPods are easy to fix, Apple gives them away like ice-cream on a very hot day at the beach. When your iPod is broken, you send away for a new one and get a replacement. They give them away so easily because they're so cheap to make. I think having your iPod stolen is also covered by this warranty.



It's called building hype, lol. All companies do this, Apple just shows it in a less subtle way. And even so, multi-touch is a new technology to the mobile industry.
Apple are terrible advertisers. Half the Mac adverts lie about making videos and viruses. Apple target a dumb audience at best, who demand an easy userface which is basic compared to the technologies behind Windows OS.



Of course you need more fingers! I'm planning on growing 6 extra digits to use my iPhone. :)
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, my friend ;)

With a phone you need one finger, with the iPhone you need 2 which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want.


Kidding aside, you're comparing a normal simple phone to a phone with a touch screen. Compare the iPhone to a smart phone, which requires 'more fingers' to operate. So, fix your comparisons. That would be like comparing a tablet-only laptop to a regular laptop.
No I am certain you only need one finger to push 1 button. With the iPhone, you need to to browse around it, looking at the videos. This argument came from ages ago in the thread saying the iPhone is easy to use and fast to browse.



show me a slim phone with 8GB of internal flash memory + multi-touch screen with a full-featured browser, and I'll be a happy. :)
No but I can name a phone which has more size eating things. The Sony Ericsson has a bigger, powerful camera, loads of applications, a huge system which allows you to use more than one application at a time, like using more than one window at a time on a PC. And you are obviously wanting the answer to be "I can't think of any", mainly because there is no touch-screen phone on the marker till February when one of the other companies touch-screen phone comes out "/



Why would you wonder that? I'm sure you're not planning on buying one since you're so bent on Apple's downfall, lol.
Because it would be interesting to know. Looking at the size of it, a trouser pocket would be the last place to put it "/ Too wide and long, it's like flat PDA. Flat being another problem, when you sit down it would get so squished as your trousers tighter around your hips that there is a possiblity of it snapping.



Most mp3 players and phones alike these days require firmware updates for patches or even added functionality, or even removal of functionality. The iPod has updates as does the Zune, Creative's mp3 players, and others as well.
Strange, my Zen has never needed an update nor asked for one, neither has my Sony Ericsson Phone, or my other Zen MP3 player which is over a year old? Maybe it's because it isn't prown to software crashes like Apple flimsy technology. And you moan about me making up stories, tisk tisk.[/QUOTE]

[HUGECOOL]

I was generalising the whole, chunky MP3 players. Do they have an actual name? Because the orignal MP3 player was like a Memory Stick you just put in the PC.Yes, they're called hard drive-based media players, which Creative was among the first to make.

What events? The Zune is hardly anything to make people lose trust? They're not that bad are they :l

"Antitrust laws, or competition laws, are laws which prohibit anti-competitive behavior and unfair business practices. The laws make illegal certain practices deemed to hurt businesses or consumers or both, or generally to violate standards of ethical behavior."

Because Microsoft employees were not speaking well of a company's products, they're facing an antitrust class action. The source I gave you previously stated this. ;/

Considering someone just generalised the whole Mac updating times, it gives me a rough idea how often they update. I am guessing from 1 month to a week "/ You seem to have mis-read what I wrote, I said old and obsolete. Updates get old and a better one comes along to replace, which is why Windows gets its updates stillSo if Macs get updates, how would that be different than Windows being updated? "/ It isn't. And wth? Any update that has already been processed by users becomes old and obsolete in any operating system. "/ You're just creating issues that don't even exist. Oh, and 'rough ideas' aren't factual so you can't base your evidence on them, especially not in debates.

iPods are easy to fix, Apple gives them away like ice-cream on a very hot day at the beach. When your iPod is broken, you send away for a new one and get a replacement. They give them away so easily because they're so cheap to make. I think having your iPod stolen is also covered by this warranty.So how will the iPhone be any different? It costs around $300 to manufacture and all Apple products come with a 1-year warranty which can be extended. Again, you're creating issues out of non-issues. And how do you know iPods are easy to fix? "/

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, my friendIs it? That explains why you haven't mastered it yet. But I digress.. ;)


With a phone you need one finger, with the iPhone you need 2 which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want.Thanks for traveling to the future, trying out an iPhone, and explaining to me how many digits one takes to operate. "/

You only use one finger to operate the phone. Having a touch screen doesn't mean it requires more digits to operate. It's basically a regular phone with flat buttons that interact upon touch as opposed to pushing, so how do you need more fingers to operate the iPhone? "/ And all the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures. See, maybe if you'd base your responses on factual evidence rather than 'rough ideas', you'd see how silly your comments sound even though you've deluded yourself into thinking they make sense.

No I am certain you only need one finger to push 1 button. With the iPhone, you need to to browse around it, looking at the videos. This argument came from ages ago in the thread saying the iPhone is easy to use and fast to browse.Read previous statement. And unless a phone requires the user to input a multi-button action to execute something, you don't need more than 1 finger. "/

No but I can name a phone which has more size eating things. The Sony Ericsson has a bigger, powerful camera, loads of applications, a huge system which allows you to use more than one application at a time, like using more than one window at a time on a PC. And you are obviously wanting the answer to be "I can't think of any", mainly because there is no touch-screen phone on the marker till February when one of the other companies touch-screen phone comes out "
Size-eating things? At least you have the terminology down. "/ And yes, the answer is "I can't think of any" because there are no phones with multi-touch screens. ;) Sure, there are regular touch-screen phones, but that technology is inferior compared to iPhones multi-touch feature.

Because it would be interesting to know. Looking at the size of it, a trouser pocket would be the last place to put it "/ Too wide and long, it's like flat PDA. Flat being another problem, when you sit down it would get so squished as your trousers tighter around your hips that there is a possiblity of it snapping.http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4342/iphone5ez.jpg

And unless you like wearing really tight pants, I doubt a phone can snap in your pocket. :/ I had a Motorola razr which is very thin and nothing happened to it when I sat down, stood up, ran, or any other action that would likely cause a mobile device to snap according to your logic. oO

Strange, my Zen has never needed an update nor asked for one, neither has my Sony Ericsson Phone, or my other Zen MP3 player which is over a year old? Maybe it's because it isn't prown to software crashes like Apple flimsy technology. And you moan about me making up stories, tisk tisk.lol Too bad I'm not making anything up. Zen players also need updates. If you chose not to update it, well, that's your choice, but being ignorating on firmware updates doesn't mean everyone else's media player is flimsy because they had updates. ;/ I can choose not to update my iPod as well, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is flawed because they had updates. "/

I suppose you're not aware your Zen too needs update. Heres an interesting one. It removes FM radio recording capabilities, lol. Enjoy. ;)

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=dap&message.id=164368
and another
http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/download.asp?MainCategory=213&nRegionFK=&nCountryFK=&nLanguageFK=&sOSName=Windows+XP&region=1&Product_Name=ZEN+Vision+30GB&Product_ID=12985&modelnumber=&driverlang=1033&OS=10&drivertype=4&x=13&y=6
and another
http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/download.asp?MainCategory=213&nRegionFK=&nCountryFK=&nLanguageFK=&sOSName=Windows+XP&region=1&Product_Name=ZEN+Vision%3AM+30GB&Product_ID=16002&modelnumber=&driverlang=1033&OS=10&drivertype=4&x=14&y=20 (http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/download.asp?MainCategory=213&nRegionFK=&nCountryFK=&nLanguageFK=&sOSName=Windows+XP&region=1&Product_Name=ZEN+Vision&#37;3AM+30GB&Product_ID=16002&modelnumber=&driverlang=1033&OS=10&drivertype=4&x=14&y=20)
and so on.

Maybe if you had the common sense to visit the manufacturer's website before replying, you'd know better. "/

http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/ <- All firmware updates can be accessed here.

[GommeInc]

Yes, they're called hard drive-based media players, which Creative was among the first to make.
I can see why they just call them an MP3 player :P



:l

"Antitrust laws, or competition laws, are laws which prohibit anti-competitive behavior and unfair business practices. The laws make illegal certain practices deemed to hurt businesses or consumers or both, or generally to violate standards of ethical behavior."

Because Microsoft employees were not speaking well of a company's products, they're facing an antitrust class action. The source I gave you previously stated this. ;/
Hmmmm, I see. I don't particularly like the Zune, and they're kinda irrelevant to this argument aswell, you just added the argument about the Zune randomly when we were talking about other MP3 players. You stated that Microsoft were not too keen.


So if Macs get updates, how would that be different than Windows being updated? "/ It isn't. And wth? Any update that has already been processed by users becomes old and obsolete in any operating system. "/ You're just creating issues that don't even exist. Oh, and 'rough ideas' aren't factual so you can't base your evidence on them, especially not in debates.
Again, you start a pointless argument without reading what I've said. Windows gets about as many updates as Macs, I never properly stated this because I thought it was obvious :rolleyes:

That argument has gone from Macs getting loads of updates and Windows not getting alot to Macs and Windows getting roughly the same amount. Windows pretty much have a smooth running system, which Vista will improve to make even stronger.

Macs have a different system which doesn't make everything viewable to the user, which means Viruses pretty much go straight through them. That's why people never bother making viruses for a Mac, there useless really for that. While a Windows system is open source, so everything is viewable to a user, which is where a virus creator comes along.

If a Windows system was the same as a Macs system, there would be big changes in this world. Mainly computer databases being non-existent and businesses being harder to run.


So how will the iPhone be any different? It costs around $300 to manufacture and all Apple products come with a 1-year warranty which can be extended. Again, you're creating issues out of non-issues. And how do you know iPods are easy to fix? "/
The iPhone won't be any different, that's the problem :P Apple seem to think it is the first phone to have a camera, touch-screen and MP3 player. They also brag about it being 5 years ahead. Looking at all the evidence of other phones, one being released next month, they're about as far a head as any other company that is making their own phones. I would probably say they're a bit behind really, considering most this technology is old. Having an MP3 player and browser on a phone is hardly anything now, they come as standard. The only thing they had to brag about been done and thought of way before them "/

I wouldn't say they get fixed really. Once your iPod has crashed and locked, you send it away and get a new one, it is probably chucked away, they don't cost alot to make, apparently.


Is it? That explains why you haven't mastered it yet. But I digress.. ;)
I don't waste time using sarcasm, it makes you seem deceptively arrogant and clever ;)



Thanks for traveling to the future, trying out an iPhone, and explaining to me how many digits one takes to operate. "/
I never needed to, I saw a video ;)


You only use one finger to operate the phone. Having a touch screen doesn't mean it requires more digits to operate. It's basically a regular phone with flat buttons that interact upon touch as opposed to pushing, so how do you need more fingers to operate the iPhone? "/
In one of the videos of the iPhone, he uses 2 fingers to rotate the image on screen. Surely you can just use one finger by a touch-senstive area in on corner?


And all the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures. See, maybe if you'd base your responses on factual evidence rather than 'rough ideas', you'd see how silly your comments sound even though you've deluded yourself into thinking they make sense.
You do realise there are hundreds of videos on the internet about the iPhone? And as you said, they do use 2 fingers "/ If they designed it with some thought, they could of made it with one finger to resize an image, like you would with a mouse pointer on a computer...


Read previous statement. And unless a phone requires the user to input a multi-button action to execute something, you don't need more than 1 finger. "/
You seem to have the habit of taking what I've said and blowing it out of proportion. I never meant for it to say two fingers for everything, you just made yourself believe I said that so you could make yourself seem clever, again...

I also think using two fingers would just make it more fiddly. Say, your index finger and middle finger. They're not the most accurate fingers to use for stuff like this. So if you resize with those 2, you may resize your image badly "/ Again, with thought, this could be possible with just the one finger.


Size-eating things? At least you have the terminology down. "/ And yes, the answer is "I can't think of any" because there are no phones with multi-touch screens. ;) Sure, there are regular touch-screen phones, but that technology is inferior compared to iPhones multi-touch feature.
Considering it was late last night, I didn't expect myself to pick out a big word to jot down. Besides, terminology is not always needed. Unless, you're not clever enough to understand what I meant.

What I meant to say was, there are phones out there that are smaller can have alot of applications stuffed inside them. And yes there is a phone out there that [i]does[/b] have a multi-touch screen. Coming out in February.


The PRADA Phone by LG will be available with prices starting from 600 Euros in mobile dealerships as well as selected PRADA stores in the UK, France, Germany and Italy as of late February, 2007, followed by countries in Asia such as Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore from late March, 2007. The Korean version of the phone is scheduled to launch in the second quarter of 2007.
This phone has multi-tasking capabilities which isn't new, loads of Sony phones have them. I don't actually think Apple has this on the iPhone, and because it is so big and magnificent, you would need this really "/

Here's the source: http://www.lge.com/about/press_release/detail/PRO|NEWS%5EPRE|MENU_20328_PRE|MENU.jhtml

Now a different phone, from the makers of the touchpad on laptops and notebooks:

http://news.com.com/1606-12994-6150132.html

Personally, I find this phone more impressive, shame it's a bit big. It has a sat nav, which Apple doesn't have, drag and drop actions, another thing Apple doesn't appear to have on their phone, and multiple windows, which the iPhone also doesn't have. Although this is a concept phone, the end result may look different, but considering only what it has, it is more impressive "/

So this phone out does the iPhone too "/ With a sat nav and drag and drop actions, which the iPhone appears to not have. Not as impressive now, is it? "/

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4342/iphone5ez.jpg

So it's like fitting half a CD case in your pocket? Wow, that's impressive, so it's not really a pocket media device then? Carrying it in a bag just makes it less convenient, especially when it is on vibrate and you don't feel or hear it "/

Oops, I did the sarcasm bit in that comment :rolleyes:


And unless you like wearing really tight pants, I doubt a phone can snap in your pocket. :/ I had a Motorola razr which is very thin and nothing happened to it when I sat down, stood up, ran, or any other action that would likely cause a mobile device to snap according to your logic. oO
An iPhone is just one surface while a Motorola razr is a flip with 2 surfaces, so it is more durable "/ There is a chance of it snapping or having too much pressure put on it that does damage internally to it. I'm not saying it will always snap etc when you do such activities, but you seem to like playing the assume and blow out of proportion game.

Anyone with logic would know what I meant, they wouldn't need exact details, because if you have a brain, you might aswell use it to figure things out.


lol Too bad I'm not making anything up. Zen players also need updates. If you chose not to update it, well, that's your choice, but being ignorating on firmware updates doesn't mean everyone else's media player is flimsy because they had updates. ;/ I can choose not to update my iPod as well, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is flawed because they had updates. "/
Mine seems to working perfectly well, as is my friends Zen and my other friends Zen.


I suppose you're not aware your Zen too needs update. Heres an interesting one. It removes FM radio recording capabilities, lol. Enjoy. ;)
Is removing FM capabilities really an update? Sounds like a downgrade to me ;)

As stated above, mine is working perfectly well. The only time you need to get an update (according to tech support from Creative), is when the software in your Zen becomes corrupt after a dodgy installion or connection to your PC.

[HUGECOOL]

Hmmmm, I see. I don't particularly like the Zune, and they're kinda irrelevant to this argument aswell, you just added the argument about the Zune randomly when we were talking about other MP3 players. You stated that Microsoft were not too keen.Nope, you don't see, because you still didn't get it. ;l

Microsoft faced an antitrust trial because of the things certain employees said about Creative's and Dell's media players back in 2003. This is a quote from the email;

"I have to tell you my experience with our software and this device Creative's Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra is really terrible," Allchin wrote in a Nov. 13, 2003, e-mail. "Apple is just so far ahead. How can we get the [independent hardware vendors] to create something that is competitive with the iPod? I looked at the Dell system and that is not close either."

Because of that, Microsoft decided to make their own product which was announced in 2006- the Zune. And even so, the Zune has not yet impacted the mainstream at all. So the Zune is relevant to the argument even though you're not really comprehending my post. "/

Again, you start a pointless argument without reading what I've said. Windows gets about as many updates as Macs, I never properly stated this because I thought it was obvious

That argument has gone from Macs getting loads of updates and Windows not getting alot to Macs and Windows getting roughly the same amount. Windows pretty much have a smooth running system, which Vista will improve to make even stronger.

Macs have a different system which doesn't make everything viewable to the user, which means Viruses pretty much go straight through them. That's why people never bother making viruses for a Mac, there useless really for that. While a Windows system is open source, so everything is viewable to a user, which is where a virus creator comes along.

If a Windows system was the same as a Macs system, there would be big changes in this world. Mainly computer databases being non-existent and businesses being harder to run.Pointless arguement? This coming form someone pointing out sarcasm? oh, that's brilliant- start moaning about the conversation going off track and you derail it even more. Very nice. I don't have the time nor the want to start an argument on operating systems, their capabilities, flaws, and anything else that you think you know so much about. "/

So, here, take a look at this website that provides an unbiased comparison between both operating systems out of the box and juxtaposes the experience. http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php (oh, and OS X wins btw. No surprise there.)

Your arguments are moot. Seriously. You don't even know what you're talking about let alone hold an argument about the topic. "/. You're basically saying that because Windows is 'open source' (even though it isn't. Open source usually means you can acquire the product free of charge. "/) its a haven for virus creators because it allows a user to modify their system. So how is that good? And it doesn't matter if viruses download on a Mac- the virus is unable to execute anyway. "/ (.exe files or other windows-related viruses basically stay there wasting space, assuming the virus doesn't function on Unix-based platforms, which is like 95% of the time.)

The iPhone won't be any different, that's the problem Apple seem to think it is the first phone to have a camera, touch-screen and MP3 player. They also brag about it being 5 years ahead. Looking at all the evidence of other phones, one being released next month, they're about as far a head as any other company that is making their own phones. I would probably say they're a bit behind really, considering most this technology is old. Having an MP3 player and browser on a phone is hardly anything now, they come as standard. The only thing they had to brag about been done and thought of way before them "/The iPhone won't be any different than what? And you still don't it, or understand how the touch screen is different. Let me explain it as simple as possible because apparetly any other way seems to be futile;
The way current-day ideas were implemented on the iPhone is what Apple is talking about. IMPLEMENTED. Camera- they didn't even mention the camera, even though its there. Touch Screen- The touch screen technology behind the iPhone IS new- NEW being keyword. MP3 Player- What Apple is saying is that current-day MP3 player phones are primitive compared to theirs. Why? Because the iPhone's Mp3 player is an iPod- a device that has already proved to be popular and easy to use. Browsers aren't new, but the Safari browser is radically more improved than traditional phone browsers. So, even though other phones already have these capabilities, the iPhone will offer them in a more improved manner.

I don't waste time using sarcasm, it makes you seem deceptively arrogant and clever Of course you don't waste your time using sarcasm- you're too busy wasting your time posting pointless comments in hopes of sounding smart- and failing miserably. "/

I never needed to, I saw a video
In one of the videos of the iPhone, he uses 2 fingers to rotate the image on screen. Surely you can just use one finger by a touch-senstive area in on corner?
You do realise there are hundreds of videos on the internet about the iPhone? And as you said, they do use 2 fingers "/ If they designed it with some thought, they could of made it with one finger to resize an image, like you would with a mouse pointer on a computer...

You seem to have the habit of taking what I've said and blowing it out of proportion. I never meant for it to say two fingers for everything, you just made yourself believe I said that so you could make yourself seem clever, again...

I also think using two fingers would just make it more fiddly. Say, your index finger and middle finger. They're not the most accurate fingers to use for stuff like this. So if you resize with those 2, you may resize your image badly "/ Again, with thought, this could be possible with just the one finger.Yes, you can, and it would also limit that functionality. On the iPhone, you interact with the phone's screen while zooming in or out on pictures which makes for looking at pictures a smoother experience. Its better to to be resizing and moving around the picture at the same time than to continuously tap a + or - every time you needed to zoom in or out. "/ And I already mentioned that using two fingers was the only time the phone needed the user to provide a two-finger input. And being designed with thought would mean imitating a gesture already available on a computer? So by your logic, a new idea must be derived from something already in existence. "/

And no, I don't blow anything out of proportion. Next time, explain yourself in a way that others understand you, not how you would understand yourself. And if you resize the image 'badly', then another simple movement is all it takes to make it normal again- resizing the space between your indes finger and thumb. I don't think anything is simpler than that. And repeatedly tapping an icon to resize a picture would just be annoying since you use your fingers, not a stylus.

Considering it was late last night, I didn't expect myself to pick out a big word to jot down. Besides, terminology is not always needed. Unless, you're not clever enough to understand what I meant.Of course not, by your standards, you'd refer to objects as 'things' that do 'stuff' with other 'things'. And 'big words' aren't needed. Use technical terms for technical arguments.


What I meant to say was, there are phones out there that are smaller can have alot of applications stuffed inside them. And yes there is a phone out there that [i]does[/b] have a multi-touch screen. Coming out in February.'Applications stuffed inside them'? What's the excuse now- too early in the morning? :rolleyes: Anyway..

The Prada phone does not have multi-touch. It has an advanced touch-screen, meaning its a regular touch-screen that will improve in things previous touch-screens performed poorly in. And 'application-stuffed' phones don't make them any better than a phone with few applications. Its the way the applications are implemented that make or break a phone.

This phone has multi-tasking capabilities which isn't new, loads of Sony phones have them. I don't actually think Apple has this on the iPhone, and because it is so big and magnificent, you would need this really "/

Here's the source: http://www.lge.com/about/press_release/detail/PRO|NEWS%5EPRE|MENU_20328_PRE|MENU.jhtmllol multi-tasking for IMs, is what the website says. Pretty much any phone has that. It basically allows you to be conversing in an instant messenger and going away to do other things (ie-phone calls etc). The iPhone has that too. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it didn't.

Now a different phone, from the makers of the touchpad on laptops and notebooks:

http://news.com.com/1606-12994-6150132.html

Personally, I find this phone more impressive, shame it's a bit big. It has a sat nav, which Apple doesn't have, drag and drop actions, another thing Apple doesn't appear to have on their phone, and multiple windows, which the iPhone also doesn't have. Although this is a concept phone, the end result may look different, but considering only what it has, it is more impressive "/
So this phone out does the iPhone too "/ With a sat nav and drag and drop actions, which the iPhone appears to not have. Not as impressive now, is it? "/Nope, iPhone lacks GPS, then again so do many other phones. Drag and drop is useless in the iPhone- why would it have a technology that it won't even utilize? "/ The iPhone also doesn't use windows, so that would logically not be there. Basically, you listed technologies that phone had that weren't needed on the iPhone even though they'd be pointless on it. It's like if I were to say why the Synaptics phone doesn't include Google Maps, multi-touch, visual voice mail, integrated iPod music player, and other technologies that are mostly iPhone proprietary. And actually, the iPhone just looked a hundred times better after viewing that phone.

So it's like fitting half a CD case in your pocket? Wow, that's impressive, so it's not really a pocket media device then? Carrying it in a bag just makes it less convenient, especially when it is on vibrate and you don't feel or hear it "/

Oops, I did the sarcasm bit in that comment Heres another comparison- one you might relate to; The iPhone and the Zen Vision:M

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1170/iphone7fw.jpg

The iPhone just got smaller. ;)

Oh, that was sarcasm? Warn me next time, eh?

An iPhone is just one surface while a Motorola razr is a flip with 2 surfaces, so it is more durable "/ There is a chance of it snapping or having too much pressure put on it that does damage internally to it. I'm not saying it will always snap etc when you do such activities, but you seem to like playing the assume and blow out of proportion game.

Anyone with logic would know what I meant, they wouldn't need exact details, because if you have a brain, you might aswell use it to figure things out.How the hell is a razr more durable than the iPhone?? Flip phones are notorious for breaking in half because they're flip phones. Candybar style phones do not, which is what the iPhone is and which is why majority of smartphones are candybar styled as well. And unless you're applying a significant amount of force upon the phone (ie- attempting to break it with your hands), it is very unlikely to break. iPod Videos are thinner than the iPhone and guess what- they don't break in half! Fascinating, don't you think? :rolleyes:


Mine seems to working perfectly well, as is my friends Zen and my other friends Zen.Wonderful, three Zens represent all Creative media players in the world. And none of the owners practice common sense maintenance on their devices.



Is removing FM capabilities really an update? Sounds like a downgrade to me

As stated above, mine is working perfectly well. The only time you need to get an update (according to tech support from Creative), is when the software in your Zen becomes corrupt after a dodgy installion or connection to your PC.That's because it was a downgrade included in an upgrade. While many features were enhanced, FM recording was removed.

Uhm, no. Firmware updates are freely available to install whenever they appear on the Creative Labs website. Unlike Apple which announces updates, Creative does not, therefore they go unnoticed. That doesn't mean your Zen doesn't need a firmware update. Just that you don't know how to properly maintain a device that requires updates. "/

[VINTAGE]

dunno if anyone has sed this but i cba reading all the things..i would buy it sounds pretty good and cheap for tht i tink bt if its anything like ipods which break every 10 mins forget it

[<3]

Yah, love it, pre-ordered one already :]

[adamorcharlie]

bad idea... apple will take over the world with a lil help from tesco

[Desjardens]

If it wasn't on AT&T I would think about it. I have a Telus phone, and my affiliate in the US is Sprint/Nextel. So I can't get it.

[Eye!]

Its awsome I have seen them, best phone in existance! Apple should do whatever they are good at and boy they make one phat phone!

[GommeInc]

"I have to tell you my experience with our software and this device Creative's Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra is really terrible," Allchin wrote in a Nov. 13, 2003, e-mail. "Apple is just so far ahead. How can we get the [independent hardware vendors] to create something that is competitive with the iPod? I looked at the Dell system and that is not close either."
Obviously Allchin has a deranged mind to not realise that iPods are backed by a huge company, bigger than Creative and Sony that will obviously over advertise, exaggerate and distribute the wonders of an iPod. Personally, though experience, they're crap in comparison "/


Because of that, Microsoft decided to make their own product which was announced in 2006- the Zune. And even so, the Zune has not yet impacted the mainstream at all. So the Zune is relevant to the argument even though you're not really comprehending my post. "/
I see, we were orginally talking about companies that manufacteured MP3 players like Creative and Sony, which brought them out roughly the same time as the iPod, although some released them before the iPod. Obviously, the Zune would be crap, it is a new thing in a new market, you don't even need to study markets to know that "/


Pointless arguement? This coming form someone pointing out sarcasm? oh, that's brilliant- start moaning about the conversation going off track and you derail it even more. Very nice. I don't have the time nor the want to start an argument on operating systems, their capabilities, flaws, and anything else that you think you know so much about. "/
It went off track ages ago, might aswell make it worse and I hardly point it out, I was merely making an off-topic comment about it, but you seem not to realise that. You argue you don't want to argue about operating systems, yet you do it anyway. Looking for an argument really...

It's pretty obvious looking at that site which compares th two, so you completely destroyed your argument here.


So, here, take a look at this website that provides an unbiased comparison between both operating systems out of the box and juxtaposes the experience. http://www.xvsxp.com/finalscore/index.php (oh, and OS X wins btw. No surprise there.)
Hmmm, Windows aren;t as bad comapred to Apple as I imagined. Windows blow Apple out of the competition in certain areas, and only slightly do worse where Apple are best at...

And Apple praise their video editting in ads, yet looking at this source you provided, they're pretty crap "/ Apple Macs don't come with any video editting/making programs "/


Your arguments are moot. Seriously. You don't even know what you're talking about let alone hold an argument about the topic. "/.
Yet I have a criticism for nearly all your responses and correct information which you innocently try to ignore? Most of my answers are common sense, but you seem to deploy logic which is trying defy physics. Like fitting half a CD case in your pocket and call the iPhone solid...


You're basically saying that because Windows is 'open source' (even though it isn't. Open source usually means you can acquire the product free of charge. "/) its a haven for virus creators because it allows a user to modify their system. So how is that good?
Obviously it isn't good? BUT, because the Windows system allows users to do pretty much what they want with it, also leaves it open for others. You cannot fix this.


And it doesn't matter if viruses download on a Mac- the virus is unable to execute anyway. "/ (.exe files or other windows-related viruses basically stay there wasting space, assuming the virus doesn't function on Unix-based platforms, which is like 95% of the time.)
I don't know much about .exe programs, but judging by what you've said, if a Mac doesn't use .exe files, they're not that good "/ Loads of programs out there are .exe, which is probably why people argue that the Mac isn't a good system which offers lot of programs.


The iPhone won't be any different than what? And you still don't it, or understand how the touch screen is different.
If you bothered looking at the videos and information and reviews on the iPhone, you'll notice all Apple do is brag about the amazing touch screen and how it is impliment, apparently "differently" than anything else in the world. The fact you can't really impliment a touch screen any different is out of question with them. Unless they have made it so you HAVE to use your toes?


The way current-day ideas were implemented on the iPhone is what Apple is talking about. IMPLEMENTED.
Read the statement above, you cannot implement it any differently than any other multi-touch pad "/ The technology is new, yes, but Apple aren't the first to use it, which they strongly hint they have.


Camera- they didn't even mention the camera, even though its there.
Which is only 2 mega pixels, which means the quality won't be that good anyway.


Touch Screen- The touch screen technology behind the iPhone IS new- NEW being keyword.
Yes, it is NEW, clever boy. When did I say it was ancient?


MP3 Player- What Apple is saying is that current-day MP3 player phones are primitive compared to theirs. Why? Because the iPhone's Mp3 player is an iPod- a device that has already proved to be popular and easy to use.
Primitive? Hardly... Sony is #1 with their quality of sound "/ iPod is 3rd.

They're also not easy to use. No off button, you get off buttons on every other MP3 player, you have to hold the Menu button, hardly easy to find out really "/ Although it is popular, it doesn't mean it is the best. As stated, Sony won the quality of sound out of aload of devices. This isn't a biased comment either, considering I have a Creative :rolleyes:


Browsers aren't new, but the Safari browser is radically more improved than traditional phone browsers. So, even though other phones already have these capabilities, the iPhone will offer them in a more improved manner.
This is true, I agree. But internet on phones isn't used as often as you would seem. It costs which is the problem. Although I can see phones being created that connect to Wireless Networks. Some may already do.


Of course you don't waste your time using sarcasm- you're too busy wasting your time posting pointless comments in hopes of sounding smart- and failing miserably. "/
Consider it's an opinionated argument, and there is no right or wrong answer "/ And pointless? Half the things I have posted are pretty obvious. Just look at the iPhone and compare, you've even failed yourself trying to make a proper come back by providing proof which I also benefit from "/


Yes, you can, and it would also limit that functionality. On the iPhone, you interact with the phone's screen while zooming in or out on pictures which makes for looking at pictures a smoother experience. Its better to to be resizing and moving around the picture at the same time than to continuously tap a + or - every time you needed to zoom in or out. "/ And I already mentioned that using two fingers was the only time the phone needed the user to provide a two-finger input.
As mentioned below, all you need to do is hold one corner and drag it into itself to make the image smaller or create a crop window and so on. Looking at the link you provided, the iPhones photo editting is probably going to be about as crap as it is on the Mac. So it wouldn't surprised me if editted a photo is about as simple and useless. While with phones that have Photo Editted suites, you can crop with only a few clicks of a button. 2 minimum and the maximum is how close you zoom in.


And being designed with thought would mean imitating a gesture already available on a computer? So by your logic, a new idea must be derived from something already in existence. "/
Consider most ideas are taken from something already in existence. The iPhone hasn't done anything new really. The touch screen on the iPhone is just a connection of ideas leading up to the final conclusion.

Touch pad > only a single output > make it multiple > Multi-touch pad. The touch screen just originates from a something touch sensitive "/ Which is what this whole argument is about. The iPhone is using an idea and have advanced on it, unless they just copied it off another company, which is likely.

If the iPhone created the whole touch-sensitive technology, then it would be amazing, but they didn't...


And no, I don't blow anything out of proportion. Next time, explain yourself in a way that others understand you, not how you would understand yourself.
You must be pretty low witted to not understand. Use your common sense, if I was talking about 2 fingers being used to manipulate a tool on the iPhone and you've seen videos of the iPhone in action, you should be able to build your own conclusion that I mean only certain tools. Not all of them. Use your brain, it's what it's there for :rolleyes:


And if you resize the image 'badly', then another simple movement is all it takes to make it normal again- resizing the space between your indes finger and thumb.
This isn't good enough really. You may want to edit images as fast as possible without the problem of error. And Using your thumb on the iPhone would be a problem, considering you would probably tough the screen with your thumb nail which could sratch the screen or just make things more difficult "/


I don't think anything is simpler than that. And repeatedly tapping an icon to resize a picture would just be annoying since you use your fingers, not a stylus.
Yes, like how you would resize an image on a PC and possibly Mac, but taking hold of one corner and pulling it into itself or the opposite, to make the image big.


Of course not, by your standards, you'd refer to objects as 'things' that do 'stuff' with other 'things'. And 'big words' aren't needed. Use technical terms for technical arguments.
Objects aren't things that do stuff with things, isn't that describing interaction? When a 'thing' that does stuff with another 'thing?'

I've never seen the point in using huge words when smaller words will suffice "/ As long as you can understand, then it is perfectly alright.


'Applications stuffed inside them'? What's the excuse now- too early in the morning? :rolleyes: Anyway..
There really isn't an exact term for what I am trying to describe "/ Besides, does it matter? Not really no, you're just trying to find a petty excuse for an argument, really.


The Prada phone does not have multi-touch. It has an advanced touch-screen, meaning its a regular touch-screen that will improve in things previous touch-screens performed poorly in.
Still new technology at the end of the day "/ While the iPhone is released in June, there is still a phone out on the market which has thrown away it's buttons and has gone for a touch screen.


And 'application-stuffed' phones don't make them any better than a phone with few applications. Its the way the applications are implemented that make or break a phone.
Surely more applications is better than few applications? Self-explanatory really "/ More applications, more choice... You don't relly get huge multi-tasking technology in phones, more chance of something going wrong.


lol multi-tasking for IMs, is what the website says. Pretty much any phone has that. It basically allows you to be conversing in an instant messenger and going away to do other things (ie-phone calls etc). The iPhone has that too. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it didn't.
Obviously every phone mutes the music when a phone call is happening. I guess I must explain further. You could have, for example: Your message inbox open, internet browser open, MP3 player open and a game running. With the "Running Applications" menu, you can simultaniously swap between them, without having the close an application. Looking at the iPhone information, it doesn't appear to have this. Obviously it would mute/turn off the music when a phone call comes through, if it didn't, it would be a pretty rubbish phone :P



Nope, iPhone lacks GPS, then again so do many other phones. Drag and drop is useless in the iPhone- why would it have a technology that it won't even utilize? "/
It has a maps setting, it may aswell take that extra step and have GPS, then you can get rid of that old sat nav in your car. And drag and drop would be very useful with the iPhone, you could create play lists by dragging songs into a Playlist etc. It seems more impressive than pushing areas saying "Add to playlist" which you seem to of said was useless if the iPod had areas that zoomed in and out of images. So your statement is a bit hypocritical really "/


The iPhone also doesn't use windows, so that would logically not be there. Basically, you listed technologies that phone had that weren't needed on the iPhone even though they'd be pointless on it.
Well considering they are trying to be better than any other phone (if you listened to the CEO speech), they may aswell. Some phones like the Sony Ericsson has a "Running Application" setting, which means you can start one application and view an old one. Like going on the internet while having text messages up. This would be useful in the iPhone, you can go on Maps while having Notes up.[/quote]

I just read the Apple website, I like how they list notes and addresses as an iPhone feature. Any phone can have that, it seems a bit pointless listing that. It just looks like they're showing off a new phone to an audience new to phones "/ Even though stuff like that has been on mobile phones well over 7 years now...


It's like if I were to say why the Synaptics phone doesn't include Google Maps, multi-touch, visual voice mail, integrated iPod music player, and other technologies that are mostly iPhone proprietary. And actually, the iPhone just looked a hundred times better after viewing that phone.
Ah yes, but considering the Synpatics phone has a GPS, it would logically have a map system, so the Synpatics phone surpasses the iPhone with a map system PLUS a GPS system "/

This synpatics phone has more impressive stuff in it than what the iPhone has. Looks mean nothing, it is what the phone is capable of and what a phon looks like is all down to opinion really "/ The iPhone brags amazing features, yet this synpatics phone video/report was talking about what the phone does. "/ And what part of concept phone don't you understand? It probably won't look like that, twit. The whole point of the video was to show what it does, as opposed to looks :rolleyes:

Heres another comparison- one you might relate to; The iPhone and the Zen Vision:M

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1170/iphone7fw.jpg

The iPhone just got smaller. ;)
Is this a bad time to mention I always thought my Zen was big? :rolleyes: Yet you assume I never did? Wishful thinking? The iPhone is nearly half a CD case, so it can't fit into a jean pocket, tracksuit bottom pocket etc. So really, they're not pocket sized, portable media devices. You'll just have to sit it in your bag or a coat pocket, which is one place pick pocketers go "/ AND one of the places you probably won't notice the phone ringing if you have it set to silent or vibrate...


How the hell is a razr more durable than the iPhone?? Flip phones are notorious for breaking in half because they're flip phones. Candybar style phones do not, which is what the iPhone is and which is why majority of smartphones are candybar styled as well. And unless you're applying a significant amount of force upon the phone (ie- attempting to break it with your hands), it is very unlikely to break. iPod Videos are thinner than the iPhone and guess what- they don't break in half! Fascinating, don't you think? :rolleyes:
You do realise the flip phone is meant to be closed when you put it in your pocket? This strengthens it by adding to layers together, making them harder to snap "/ So you are pretty stupid if you haven't realised why a flip phone is called a flip phone :rolleyes:

Yes, the iPhone is a "candy bar/brick style phone, but that really only means that it is a block which doesn't need opening. It doesn't mean a certain width, depth or height. It still is thin whether you think of what it is called or not. The iPhone is thin, thinner than an iPod Nano which below (as commmented on) still snaps. There is still a possibility it will snap, regardless to what how tight or baggy your trousers are.

Also, you cannot compare a company that is a professional in phone manufacteur with a company that hasn't even made one, so Motorola should know by now what makes or breaks a phone while Apple just steal technology regardless to what should keep it going for a while, as known by Apples infamous snapping and software crashes.


Wonderful, three Zens represent all Creative media players in the world. And none of the owners practice common sense maintenance on their devices.
It was an example "/ Now I can name all the iPods which have had errors with people I own, but I guess you want bigger facts than that "/ I don't really know if there is a website that shows how easily a Creative (or other) product crashes compared to an iPod.

And the iPod Nano still snaps if you apply pressure to them, pressure that is just sitting on them. They were suppose to of fixed this months ago by making them more solid. Seems they still haven't tried hard enough, figures.

In conclusion to this, Apple Products e.g. the iPod, are just not as practical as everyone thinks they are. Although it really is the users fault for snapping them, Apple could prevent this with bothering to add appropriate materials to strengthen the casing "/


That's because it was a downgrade included in an upgrade. While many features were enhanced, FM recording was removed.
I am guessing it was removed because downloading live Radio is considered illegal? Which is why you don't really get desktop microphones.


Uhm, no. Firmware updates are freely available to install whenever they appear on the Creative Labs website. Unlike Apple which announces updates, Creative does not, therefore they go unnoticed. That doesn't mean your Zen doesn't need a firmware update. Just that you don't know how to properly maintain a device that requires updates. "/
But why would it need an update when it is working perfectly well the way it is now? That's the poitn I am trying to get across "/ If the technology behind the music crashes, then maybe an update is needed.

I talked to Creative Tech Support a while ago about my old Zen which had a broken screen (I have no idea how, but I imagine it got near a magnet). They said that you only need to download updates if something is not working and if there is an update for that particular error, if not, then send it way to be fixed. I just ended up getting a Vision: M, because I got interested in them around the time the old one broken.

So no, you don't necessarily need an update, considering it is all working well "/ If not, get an update. You don't have to get an update if it is working well, unless you think you do need one. Matter of user choice, rather than company choice "/

[HUGECOOL]

Obviously Allchin has a deranged mind to not realise that iPods are backed by a huge company, bigger than Creative and Sony that will obviously over advertise, exaggerate and distribute the wonders of an iPod. Personally, though experience, they're crap in comparison "/ This was back in 2003. No one even noticed Apple's presence until the iPod was released. "/ Apple is a bigger company than Sony? lol Oh, that's right, because Apple also have their own film division, gaming department, and music label. ;l And Allchin wasn't judging the iPod by its capabilities (the Zen had more), it was the way everything worked without any problems out of the box, and being able to easily transfer music to the iPod with few instructions. And its only considered over-advertising if the product never sells despite all the advertising, and the iPod sells very fast.

I see, we were orginally talking about companies that manufacteured MP3 players like Creative and Sony, which brought them out roughly the same time as the iPod, although some released them before the iPod. Obviously, the Zune would be crap, it is a new thing in a new market, you don't even need to study markets to know that "/ No.. We were talking about the antitrust trial Microsoft was facing BECAUSE of that. And because of those events, the Zune was created. And no, the Zune should have taken off immediately. When a large company such as Microsoft introduce a largely advertised media player into the market (and being dubbed the 'iPod-killer', which it wasn't), it is expected that the product become popular very quickly.

It went off track ages ago, might aswell make it worse and I hardly point it out, I was merely making an off-topic comment about it, but you seem not to realise that. You argue you don't want to argue about operating systems, yet you do it anyway. Looking for an argument really...


It's pretty obvious looking at that site which compares th two, so you completely destroyed your argument here.We were originally arguing about Windows Update vs Mac Updates. So then you started getting 'rough ideas' of what Mac updates were even though you were wrong, which was followed by more whining about the Mac O/S being unstable and horrible, even though you've never actually used it for productivity.

And the reason I'd rather not argue about operating systems is because 1) its a very tiring argument never ending in a conclusion 2) your knowledge in computers is slim to none, so you'd just be repeating other people's opinions and 3) its pointless to do so when someone has already compared them and posted the results on a website "/

Hmmm, Windows aren;t as bad comapred to Apple as I imagined. Windows blow Apple out of the competition in certain areas, and only slightly do worse where Apple are best at...


And Apple praise their video editting in ads, yet looking at this source you provided, they're pretty crap "/ Apple Macs don't come with any video editting/making programs "/No, they're not as bad, they just lost the comparison both times around.

"Grand total (out of 920 points):

Mac OS X: 642 (643)
Windows XP Pro: 586 (630)
Windows XP Home: 557 (605)"

Oh and concerning video editing, I'm guessing you didn't read the conclusion, which says that this only applies to older Macs, not new ones since the new ones include software not previously included. "/

Yet I have a criticism for nearly all your responses and correct information which you innocently try to ignore? Most of my answers are common sense, but you seem to deploy logic which is trying defy physics. Like fitting half a CD case in your pocket and call the iPhone solid... no, lol. Your 'correct information' is based on your 'rough ideas' which aren't facts. You base your argument on ‘word of mouth’ and things you've read that others have said about the topic. So the only thing you're doing is really just reading material and regurgitating it on this thread, without having any actual experience with these 'issues' you seem to be so bothered with on mac computers. "/

Obviously it isn't good? BUT, because the Windows system allows users to do pretty much what they want with it, also leaves it open for others. You cannot fix this.So why are you praising something that isn't good? "/ It isn't good for any user. If a computer-illerated user was to find their way to, say C:/Windows/System32, and delete files from there and effectively destroying the o/s, how would the result be one to brag about? "/

I don't know much about .exe programs, but judging by what you've said, if a Mac doesn't use .exe files, they're not that good "/ Loads of programs out there are .exe, which is probably why people argue that the Mac isn't a good system which offers lot of programs. No, you don't. You also don't know much about computers. Yes, lots of programs out there are .exe, such as trojans, viruses, spyware- so not being able to run these is not good?. Because macs have a different filing system, they cannot execute these files so they effectively become immune to the problem. Macs use .dmg files instead of .exe. Arguments about Macs having less programs than Windows are pretty pointless now. Anything you can do on a PC can be done on a Mac, or emulated, despite not having as much third-party support. "/

And please, stop making arguments on things you have no idea about. I’d rather be shot in the chest with projectile diarrhea than continue listening to your reasoning on computer operating systems. “/

If you bothered looking at the videos and information and reviews on the iPhone, you'll notice all Apple do is brag about the amazing touch screen and how it is impliment, apparently "differently" than anything else in the world. The fact you can't really impliment a touch screen any different is out of question with them. Unless they have made it so you HAVE to use your toes

Read the statement above, you cannot implement it any differently than any other multi-touch pad "/ The technology is new, yes, but Apple aren't the first to use it, which they strongly hint they have.o_O Now I'm wondering if you know what implemented means.
The screen was made to work according to the programs the iPhone, which is how they implemented it- to work flawlessly with its programs and make programs more productively by providing faster input. It's like comparing a Wii remote to a PS3 controller- which one provides faster input? The Wii's remote does because the user is constantly interacting with the device and the Ps3 controller needs the user to first search for the input command, press it, then they get interaction. Without that detachment, the iPhone effectively makes programs more productive with quicker input.

Which is only 2 mega pixels, which means the quality won't be that good anyway. You know what other phone only has a 2 mega pixel camera? The LG Prada phone- the one you were praising that would be so much better than the iPhone. "/

Yes, it is NEW, clever boy. When did I say it was ancient? Maybe when you kept saying it has already been used before on other products? "/

Primitive? Hardly... Sony is #1 with their quality of sound "/ iPod is 3rd.

They're also not easy to use. No off button, you get off buttons on every other MP3 player, you have to hold the Menu button, hardly easy to find out really "/ Although it is popular, it doesn't mean it is the best. As stated, Sony won the quality of sound out of aload of devices. This isn't a biased comment either, considering I have a CreativeFind the source of your information for sound quality please.

There's no off button because it automatically shuts off. "/ and no, you don't hold the Menu button, you hold the Play/Pause button. And I'm guessing you haven't seen the iPod functionality on the iPhone, which is very different to a regular iPod, so I'm not sure why you're arguing about iPod hardware technology if it won't be present on the iPhone. "/

This is true, I agree. But internet on phones isn't used as often as you would seem. It costs which is the problem. Although I can see phones being created that connect to Wireless Networks. Some may already do. Cell phone browsers are hardly used because the experience on them is very different to the experience on your home computer. The iPhone is hoping to change all that soon though.
This is why the iPhone is going to be sold with a data plan for wireless carriers. Also, because the iPhone automatically switches to wireless networks, it will reduce the cost of internet access because it won't use the carrier's Internet, but your own Internet connection (if you have a wireless router) or whoever's connection you access.

Consider it's an opinionated argument, and there is no right or wrong answer "/ And pointless? Half the things I have posted are pretty obvious. Just look at the iPhone and compare, you've even failed yourself trying to make a proper come back by providing proof which I also benefit from "/ I was actually referring to you arguing about computers, which you have no idea how they function, then you want to try and tell me that they're flawed. "/ Your arguments usually contain your opinion even though it isn't needed, rendering arguing about your opinion pointless. In short, all your comments are pretty much bullcrap, which makes it all the easier for me to respond to.

As mentioned below, all you need to do is hold one corner and drag it into itself to make the image smaller or create a crop window and so on. Looking at the link you provided, the iPhones photo editting is probably going to be about as crap as it is on the Mac. So it wouldn't surprised me if editted a photo is about as simple and useless. While with phones that have Photo Editted suites, you can crop with only a few clicks of a button. 2 minimum and the maximum is how close you zoom in. wth? Where did you get editing pictures from? o_O It's never been mentioned anywhere, and you're saying it'll be bad? See, this is what I mean by sticking your opinions were they aren't needed, especially since you haven't even used photo editing on a Mac. The only functionality the iPhone offers is being able to zoom in and out of an image using your fingers. No wonder your argument sounded pointless- you don't even know what you're talking about. "/

Consider most ideas are taken from something already in existence. The iPhone hasn't done anything new really. The touch screen on the iPhone is just a connection of ideas leading up to the final conclusion.

Touch pad > only a single output > make it multiple > Multi-touch pad. The touch screen just originates from a something touch sensitive "/ Which is what this whole argument is about. The iPhone is using an idea and have advanced on it, unless they just copied it off another company, which is likely.

If the iPhone created the whole touch-sensitive technology, then it would be amazing, but they didn't...Ideas are taken from something already in existance? Wouldn't that be called copyright infringement? "/

Taking an idea and improving on it is called innovation. "/ And Apple paid the creators of multi-touch input to develop a screen for their phone.

No, they developed something even greater- being able to have multiple input on a touch screen which had never been available before on a public product. "/

You must be pretty low witted to not understand. Use your common sense, if I was talking about 2 fingers being used to manipulate a tool on the iPhone and you've seen videos of the iPhone in action, you should be able to build your own conclusion that I mean only certain tools. Not all of them. Use your brain, it's what it's there for This is what you said.

"With a phone you need one finger, with the iPhone you need 2 which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want."

So, how am I the one not understanding when you were the one that blatantly suggested the iPhone used 2 fingers for all actions? "/

This isn't good enough really. Another pointless opinion. You haven't tried it and say its not good enough. It's like someone saying the Wii controls are horrible even though they’ve never played. "/

You may want to edit images as fast as possible without the problem of error. And Using your thumb on the iPhone would be a problem, considering you would probably tough the screen with your thumb nail which could sratch the screen or just make things more difficult "/First of all, I'm not sure where you keep getting that the iPhone has a full-fledged photo editing program if all that’s been mentioned is zooming on photos."/ Second, touch screens are not like regular screens. They are very flexible and cannot be easily damaged to the point of irreparability. "/

Yes, like how you would resize an image on a PC and possibly Mac, but taking hold of one corner and pulling it into itself or the opposite, to make the image big. You do not understand. The iPhone DOES NOT resize pictures, and as far as I know, it doesn't offer that capability. It only allows the user to ZOOM IN on pictures. Resizing an image and zooming in on it are very different. "/

Objects aren't things that do stuff with things, isn't that describing interaction? When a 'thing' that does stuff with another 'thing?'

I've never seen the point in using huge words when smaller words will suffice "/ As long as you can understand, then it is perfectly alright.It would in a normal conversation but not here. We are talking about phones, computers, and modern technology in general. When you refer to the objects an object is composed of as 'things', you refer to a very broad topic that can range from many different mechanisms a device uses. “/ It’s like referring to objects attached to a motherboard as ‘things stuffed inside a computer’, instead of calling them by their real name, it would be very difficult to know what you’re talking about.

There really isn't an exact term for what I am trying to describe "/ Besides, does it matter? Not really no, you're just trying to find a petty excuse for an argument, really. Yes, they’re called ‘Pre-Installed mobile applications’. And it matters because we’re discussing technology, which has its own terminology. “/

Still new technology at the end of the day "/ While the iPhone is released in June, there is still a phone out on the market which has thrown away it's buttons and has gone for a touch screen. It doesn’t matter if its new technology when you clearly believed it was something it wasn’t and then tried to use that against me, which was a mistake since I actually do know what I’m talking about in my arguments.

Surely more applications is better than few applications? Self-explanatory really "/ More applications, more choice... You don't relly get huge multi-tasking technology in phones, more chance of something going wrong. Uh, no? If all the applications on the phone are crappy and hardly work, what's the point of having so many of them if you can’t even use them? “/ Quality over quantity.

Obviously every phone mutes the music when a phone call is happening. I guess I must explain further. You could have, for example: Your message inbox open, internet browser open, MP3 player open and a game running. With the "Running Applications" menu, you can simultaniously swap between them, without having the close an application. Looking at the iPhone information, it doesn't appear to have this. Obviously it would mute/turn off the music when a phone call comes through, if it didn't, it would be a pretty rubbish phone Actually it does “/. The phone has four different environments in operates in so different tasks (which would each be in a different environment) would only require the user to switch to that environment, displaying the active task. And when you receive a phone call, the music fades out and the screen goes to the call menu on the phone. “/

It has a maps setting, it may aswell take that extra step and have GPS, then you can get rid of that old sat nav in your car. And drag and drop would be very useful with the iPhone, you could create play lists by dragging songs into a Playlist etc. It seems more impressive than pushing areas saying "Add to playlist" which you seem to of said was useless if the iPod had areas that zoomed in and out of images. So your statement is a bit hypocritical really "/ So you’re basically going to this by assumption and assuming the phone will eventually have GPS? “/ Making playlists is done on iTunes, which has drag-and-drop so it isn’t necessary on the phone. oO

Well considering they are trying to be better than any other phone (if you listened to the CEO speech), they may aswell. Some phones like the Sony Ericsson has a "Running Application" setting, which means you can start one application and view an old one. Like going on the internet while having text messages up. This would be useful in the iPhone, you can go on Maps while having Notes up. I just read the Apple website, I like how they list notes and addresses as an iPhone feature. Any phone can have that, it seems a bit pointless listing that. It just looks like they're showing off a new phone to an audience new to phones "/ Even though stuff like that has been on mobile phones well over 7 years now... And yet you still don’t get it. The iPhone’s technology is not what’s being shown. It’s the implementation of that technology and how it will work better than it currently does on other phones. Let’s take the example you used- contacts. Currently on phones, you have to scroll through all your contacts until you reach the person you want to call. The iPhone changes that by providing the user a faster way of doing that simply by flicking their finger up in order to zoom, thereby reaching the contact wanted faster than before. “/

Ah yes, but considering the Synpatics phone has a GPS, it would logically have a map system, so the Synpatics phone surpasses the iPhone with a map system PLUS a GPS system "/

This synpatics phone has more impressive stuff in it than what the iPhone has. Looks mean nothing, it is what the phone is capable of and what a phon looks like is all down to opinion really "/ The iPhone brags amazing features, yet this synpatics phone video/report was talking about what the phone does. "/ And what part of concept phone don't you understand? It probably won't look like that, twit. The whole point of the video was to show what it does, as opposed to looks No, it isn’t the same lol. The iPhone has Google Maps, which is very popular system that a lot of people prefer. The phone can also display satellite images of the location in question making it the first phones to do. “/

By looks, I didn’t mean appearance, otherwise I would’ve said it. It’s like if I said, “Looking at that phone just made the iPhone sound a hundred times better” I wouldn’t be talking about sound quality on the phone. “/ Concept phones are made to look more aesthetically pleasing because they don’t have all the technology that is going to be used in the final product, so the actual phone will look worse than that. And name calling? Has it become such a chore for you to have a proper argument that you’d resort to insults? “/ And in fact, it wasn’t an insult because unlike you since I’m basing my responses on facts, not assumptions.

Is this a bad time to mention I always thought my Zen was big? Yet you assume I never did? Wishful thinking? The iPhone is nearly half a CD case, so it can't fit into a jean pocket, tracksuit bottom pocket etc. So really, they're not pocket sized, portable media devices. You'll just have to sit it in your bag or a coat pocket, which is one place pick pocketers go "/ AND one of the places you probably won't notice the phone ringing if you have it set to silent or vibrate... So now the mp3 player you always seem to be praising has a negative side? “/ And the iPhone is smaller than the Zen if you see from the measurements, so a Zen is actually bigger than half a CD case. Wow. People carry these in their pockets? Because according to you, anything that’s half the size of a CD case or larger should be put in coat pocket or bag. “/ And unless you don’t have pockets or they’re really small, anyone can carry something smaller than half the size of a CD case in their pocket. People carry these devices in their pockets all the time with no issues. If carrying something of these dimensions is a personal problem, why should it be everyone else’s? “/

You do realise the flip phone is meant to be closed when you put it in your pocket? This strengthens it by adding to layers together, making them harder to snap "/ So you are pretty stupid if you haven't realised why a flip phone is called a flip phone

Yes, the iPhone is a "candy bar/brick style phone, but that really only means that it is a block which doesn't need opening. It doesn't mean a certain width, depth or height. It still is thin whether you think of what it is called or not. The iPhone is thin, thinner than an iPod Nano which below (as commmented on) still snaps. There is still a possibility it will snap, regardless to what how tight or baggy your trousers are.

Also, you cannot compare a company that is a professional in phone manufacteur with a company that hasn't even made one, so Motorola should know by now what makes or breaks a phone while Apple just steal technology regardless to what should keep it going for a while, as known by Apples infamous snapping and software crashes. I never specified an action “/ I said they were notorious for breaking, not that they broke when put in the pocket. “/ So a flip phone is still vulnerable to breaking when its opened, which is any time the user wants to interact with it. oO

LOL. See, that’s where you’re wrong (for the 20th time now? Sorry, I lost track.). Your claim: The iPhone is thinner than an iPod Nano. Well, let’s see below;

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4710/iphonehi6.jpg

Wow, wrong again. The iPod Nano is MUCH thinner than the iPhone, and even so it’s still very hard to break because of the new aluminum enclosure. Next time you make a claim, back it up with sources, because apparently the only sources you have are the facts that you’re pulling out of your ***.

And don’t even talk about software crashes. You don’t even know what a .exe file is. “/

It was an example "/ Now I can name all the iPods which have had errors with people I own, but I guess you want bigger facts than that "/ I don't really know if there is a website that shows how easily a Creative (or other) product crashes compared to an iPod.

And the iPod Nano still snaps if you apply pressure to them, pressure that is just sitting on them. They were suppose to of fixed this months ago by making them more solid. Seems they still haven't tried hard enough, figures.

In conclusion to this, Apple Products e.g. the iPod, are just not as practical as everyone thinks they are. Although it really is the users fault for snapping them, Apple could prevent this with bothering to add appropriate materials to strengthen the casing "/ You’re right- I like sources better than listening to your ‘facts’, which most of the time are just crap. “/ Show me where a new generation iPod Nano has broken in half, not intentionally, and I’ll believe you. All your claims seem to be your assumptions on things even though you haven’t really seen these things happen and repeating what someone else has said. Oh, and no company is responsible for user-caused hardware malfunction. And what material would be ‘appropriate’ for not breaking? As far as I know, any device can break and it just depends on how much a user maintains their product.

I am guessing it was removed because downloading live Radio is considered illegal? Which is why you don't really get desktop microphones.

But why would it need an update when it is working perfectly well the way it is now? That's the poitn I am trying to get across "/ If the technology behind the music crashes, then maybe an update is needed.

I talked to Creative Tech Support a while ago about my old Zen which had a broken screen (I have no idea how, but I imagine it got near a magnet). They said that you only need to download updates if something is not working and if there is an update for that particular error, if not, then send it way to be fixed. I just ended up getting a Vision: M, because I got interested in them around the time the old one broken.

So no, you don't necessarily need an update, considering it is all working well "/ If not, get an update. You don't have to get an update if it is working well, unless you think you do need one. Matter of user choice, rather than company choice "/ Updates are necessary to keep devices working properly. But of course, like most people, you don’t care about updates because it ‘doesn’t seem necessary’. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken, right? NO. “/ A lot of people seem to have your way of thinking when it comes to these devices, and its why these people usually come across a lot of issues, and why Apple does this automatically. Many functions are improved during updates and they provide for a better user experience and ameliorate issues that would otherwise cause bigger issues that would cost the company more money (ie- a company that never issued an update for a device would require more customer service employees because more people are complaining about a glitch the device is suffering from, which could’ve easily been fixed via updating.), and the customer would be dissatisfied with the product. Apple automatically does this in order to have their products working without giving people the inconvenience of ‘scavenger hunting’ for solutions to issues that were fixed in a previous update. “/

[boyslikegirls]

im not going to read all these essays so if anyone has said anything about a zune being crap, it isnt lol
i have a white one and its loads better then my old ipod nano.

[HUGECOOL]

im not going to read all these essays so if anyone has said anything about a zune being crap, it isnt lol
i have a white one and its loads better then my old ipod nano.
I had a zune for about 3 weeks, and I can't say i agree. ;/

For one, you can't use it as a removable hard drive which is something I use my iPod as much of the time. Also, the wireless would've been nice had there been more people with Zunes, so when it was on it was only draining battery life. The software the Zune uses was also not my cup o' tea. You can't edit songs while they're on the Zune and you have to do that before you transfer them. The software also uses loads of memory, especially for the media sharing on the 360, so that wasn't very convenient. The only thing I really liked about it was the radio, which showed the title of the songs begin played. Also, the menu was soft of laggy on my Zune. It had a small delay when I would switch over to another menu and it would be annoying to browse around the songs. Oh, it doesn't have games. I returned it.

[GommeInc]

[COLOR=Black] This was back in 2003. No one even noticed Apple's presence until the iPod was released. "/ Apple is a bigger company than Sony? lol Oh, that's right, because Apple also have their own film division, gaming department, and music label. ;l And Allchin wasn't judging the iPod by its capabilities (the Zen had more), it was the way everything worked without any problems out of the box, and being able to easily transfer music to the iPod with few instructions. And its only considered over-advertising if the product never sells despite all the advertising, and the iPod sells very fast.
I was considering the Computer world, not the companies as a whole. I probably should of mentioned that :P How the products work out of the box? I've seen more iPod issues than Creative or Sony issues combined "/ It is also extremely easy to install music into your Zen... You connect it either as it is, or put it as a removeable disk and add the music by clicking upload?

Creative and Sony never saw the need to advertise their products, Apple desperately needed to. I always knew about Apple? Although it probably depends on how easily it was to come by one. When the iPod was released, for about a year or 2 all you could see was iPod advertised


No.. We were talking about the antitrust trial Microsoft was facing BECAUSE of that. And because of those events, the Zune was created. And no, the Zune should have taken off immediately. When a large company such as Microsoft introduce a largely advertised media player into the market (and being dubbed the 'iPod-killer', which it wasn't), it is expected that the product become popular very quickly.
So Microsoft expected that an MP3 player, which has a load of competitors, would take off immediately? I can't see anyone dropping their Zen, iPod or Sony bean or whatever it is, for a Zune immediately "/ That's not how consumers work...


We were originally arguing about Windows Update vs Mac Updates. So then you started getting 'rough ideas' of what Mac updates were even though you were wrong, which was followed by more whining about the Mac O/S being unstable and horrible, even though you've never actually used it for productivity.
It was argued that Macs get more updates, then it got lowered to they both have roughly the same. And whining? Hardly "/

Comparing the two, and seeing them compared, I'll pick Windows, simply because it does everything at an average level (which is between 4-6). If I wanted something else, I'll download it "/ I also have more use with Microsoft Offices tools, because I cannot use the Apple equivilent because I've never learnt how to use then and I wouldn't be able to send it to college or other people, who all use Windows systems "/

More businesses use Windows, so I'll use Windows incase I ever need to write something to send to a business or company.


And the reason I'd rather not argue about operating systems is because 1) its a very tiring argument never ending in a conclusion 2) your knowledge in computers is slim to none, so you'd just be repeating other people's opinions and 3) its pointless to do so when someone has already compared them and posted the results on a website "/
No, I would be reproducing what I've read and researched. But I can see why you would want to drop it. They're both different systems which have uses for different people.


No, they're not as bad, they just lost the comparison both times around.

"Grand total (out of 920 points):

Mac OS X: 642 (643)
Windows XP Pro: 586 (630)
Windows XP Home: 557 (605)"

Oh and concerning video editing, I'm guessing you didn't read the conclusion, which says that this only applies to older Macs, not new ones since the new ones include software not previously included. "/
Windows still blows Apple out of the competition in some areas. It all depends on what the user needs at the end of the day.


no, lol. Your 'correct information' is based on your 'rough ideas' which aren't facts. You base your argument on ‘word of mouth’ and things you've read that others have said about the topic. So the only thing you're doing is really just reading material and regurgitating it on this thread, without having any actual experience with these 'issues' you seem to be so bothered with on mac computers. "/
Ah but that means I don't need it "/ I don't need to experience a Mac fully to understand the differences between the two systems. Half the time, my criticisms are with facts that are obviously wrong because they go against common sense, knowledge and physics. If it is regurgitating, it means I already know some parts of it and understand how it runs depending on what you've read. You've done it with the sources you've read.


So why are you praising something that isn't good? "/ It isn't good for any user. If a computer-illerated user was to find their way to, say C:/Windows/System32, and delete files from there and effectively destroying the o/s, how would the result be one to brag about? "/
You could simply recover the computer? Why would an illeterate person touch them? If you're a parent, you could put controls on to stop children deleting them, if they even know how to find "/ If you're a bit more amture, you just wouldn't touch anything you don't know what you're touching.

Again, it depends on the user. If you were advanced, you could play around with the System folder till your heart content, personalising everything. If not, you leave it, simple.


No, you don't. You also don't know much about computers. Yes, lots of programs out there are .exe, such as trojans, viruses, spyware- so not being able to run these is not good?. Because macs have a different filing system, they cannot execute these files so they effectively become immune to the problem. Macs use .dmg files instead of .exe. Arguments about Macs having less programs than Windows are pretty pointless now. Anything you can do on a PC can be done on a Mac, or emulated, despite not having as much third-party support. "/

And please, stop making arguments on things you have no idea about. I’d rather be shot in the chest with projectile diarrhea than continue listening to your reasoning on computer operating systems. “/
As you certainly know I don't know much about computers, I only know a certain amount. Not .exe programs are trojans etc "/ .exe files are programs files. Like if I download Zone Alarm for example, that comes as a .exe files which de-compresses itself.

And it is obvious that trojans, viruses and spyware are bad, by definition mainly.

I read a magazine about the two combined in terms of hardware more than software, which the source you gave doesn't describe.

Basically, if you have a problem with a Windows System, it is probably alot easier to sort out than what would happen with a Mac, because they're harder to fix. Although you get Trojans, Viruses and Spyware, this doesn't make them completely better than Windows. They're easier to upgrade in comparison while a Mac is limited and the hardware compatibility is useless.

If you want to implement an idea, it is best with a PC, because it is easier to create an application due to it having more programs available for it because in comparison to Macs, more people use Windows and has alot more authering tools on it. It is also backwards compatible, which Macs isn't fully. There are more programming languages in a Windows to a Mac."

Although, after reading further, I noticed that the argument just loops. So we may aswell let the OS argument die, because we'll be arguing way after this debate dies.


The screen was made to work according to the programs the iPhone, which is how they implemented it- to work flawlessly with its programs and make programs more productively by providing faster input. It's like comparing a Wii remote to a PS3 controller- which one provides faster input? The Wii's remote does because the user is constantly interacting with the device and the Ps3 controller needs the user to first search for the input command, press it, then they get interaction. Without that detachment, the iPhone effectively makes programs more productive with quicker input.
I wouldn't say it is faster really "/ Pushing the screen is just like pushing a button in some ways. Like the contacts, which is down on the joystick or arrow keys and scroll. Only difference is where the iPhone you don't have to scroll in some cases in a small menu and you just need to press the screen. It doesn't make it all that faster.


You know what other phone only has a 2 mega pixel camera? The LG Prada phone- the one you were praising that would be so much better than the iPhone. "/
I never praised the camera though ;) A product doesn't have to be better in everyway to be overally better. It can be on the same level "/

Maybe when you kept saying it has already been used before on other products? "/
Just because it has been used before doesn't make it old. It hasn't be around for long, which makes it new. It doesn't come down to whether it has been used before "/

Find the source of your information for sound quality please.
I'll get this information next time I see my friend as you might know as Mentor. He had a link to a company who does reviews in magazines which compared the Zen, the Sony Walkman and the iPod. I'll either PM you it or reply when you've replied ;)


There's no off button because it automatically shuts off. "/ and no, you don't hold the Menu button, you hold the Play/Pause button. And I'm guessing you haven't seen the iPod functionality on the iPhone, which is very different to a regular iPod, so I'm not sure why you're arguing about iPod hardware technology if it won't be present on the iPhone. "/
There is about 3 arguments going. One on Windows vs OS X, another on Zen vs iPod and another on the iPhone vs other phones. It started back ages ago, so we might aswell stick to it "/ I always get the off button wrong for an iPod, but the poitn still remains, if you want it off straight away, you have to press and hold a button down, while with other MP3 players, you can just press a button. I think iPod was trying to make a new way of turning something off, without thinking how quick and easy it is to do. Even though holding a button isn't hard.


Cell phone browsers are hardly used because the experience on them is very different to the experience on your home computer. The iPhone is hoping to change all that soon though.
But you can't really say you need to use the internet in the same extent as you would on your home PC? Considering it costs, it is easier just to use a laptop or Home PC. Also, having a full browser on present day mobile phones is useless, the screens are too small. I think the barrier for small phones is being broken down, which is where the iPhone comes along with the screen for it.


This is why the iPhone is going to be sold with a data plan for wireless carriers. Also, because the iPhone automatically switches to wireless networks, it will reduce the cost of internet access because it won't use the carrier's Internet, but your own Internet connection (if you have a wireless router) or whoever's connection you access.
Hmmm, although this feature is good, it is useless in most parts of Britian. There isn't alot of free internet connections we can connect to, unless they can get passed security? Britain pretty much sucks compared to some places where there is networks that are free to use. I don't know much about the US, so answer me this.

Does the US have networks nearly anywhere in city areas that are free to connect to?


I was actually referring to you arguing about computers, which you have no idea how they function, then you want to try and tell me that they're flawed.
Well, I was dragged into discussing how a computer works when I only have limited amount of knowledge on them "/ And the source you may have given was probably for the argument about computers, but it doesn't mean I can't use it "/


"/ Your arguments usually contain your opinion even though it isn't needed, rendering arguing about your opinion pointless. In short, all your comments are pretty much bullcrap, which makes it all the easier for me to respond to.
Not just my opinions, loads of peoples opinions. From official reviews to user reviews, which are probably more important tha official ones, because they're done freely. My arguments are probably bull crap, but they still give out pretty good points ;)


wth? Where did you get editing pictures from? o_O It's never been mentioned anywhere, and you're saying it'll be bad? See, this is what I mean by sticking your opinions were they aren't needed, especially since you haven't even used photo editing on a Mac. The only functionality the iPhone offers is being able to zoom in and out of an image using your fingers. No wonder your argument sounded pointless- you don't even know what you're talking about. "/
I assumed that the iPhone would actually have this technology, most phones and even MP3 players do... It wasn't an opinion, it was an assumption which I thought was obvious, but it seems the iPhone is about as primative as a Sony Ericsson k800i "/ Only advantage is that the iPhone has a full browser "/ This is, of course, missing out the new technology of connecting to Wireless Networks and the touch-pad.


Ideas are taken from something already in existance? Wouldn't that be called copyright infringement? "/
Not if it is exact ;) I can take the idea of the Creative scroll technology and plant Apple on it and make it so it uses a wheel as opposed to a line like Creative has. Hey presto, the Apple iPod has a new feature ;)


Also, say you have an idea of a Golden Mountain. That is taken from somethings in exitence. The colour gold and a mountain. That theory has been around since the Philosopher Hume "/ Pretty obvious nowadays.


Taking an idea and improving on it is called innovation. "/ And Apple paid the creators of multi-touch input to develop a screen for their phone.
So you work for iPhone and know how it was created? They probably looked at a PDA and noticed how you can use it as a touch screen. With this, they probably built on this idea. Like, using two finger and making it multi-touch compatible and then developed it further so you can then slide your finger when it is held on a switch.

I've just noticed, that you've contradicted yourself in that last comment...

If it was made out of thin air, you would know. This hardly seems like it was, because something similar has been around for ages. They've just improved on the idea.


No, they developed something even greater- being able to have multiple input on a touch screen which had never been available before on a public product. "/


This is what you said.

"With a phone you need one finger, with the iPhone you need 2 which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want."

So, how am I the one not understanding when you were the one that blatantly suggested the iPhone used 2 fingers for all actions? "/
I was describing one of the actions I witnessed in the video, not the whole phone itself "/


Another pointless opinion. You haven't tried it and say its not good enough. It's like someone saying the Wii controls are horrible even though they’ve never played. "/
I don't need to try one out? I've used phones before and know how they could improve. Only amazing thing about the iPhone so far is the multi touch-screen, which is genious. Just a pity nothing else is amazing about it.


First of all, I'm not sure where you keep getting that the iPhone has a full-fledged photo editing program if all that’s been mentioned is zooming on photos."/ Second, touch screens are not like regular screens. They are very flexible and cannot be easily damaged to the point of irreparability. "/
So it doesn't?! The iPhone is getting a bit basic now... It doesn't need a fully fledged one to do stuff like that "/ On some phones, you get a very basic one which does stuff like that.


You do not understand. The iPhone DOES NOT resize pictures, and as far as I know, it doesn't offer that capability. It only allows the user to ZOOM IN on pictures. Resizing an image and zooming in on it are very different. "/
So how comes you said that resizing images is something it does?

You only use one finger to operate the phone. Having a touch screen doesn't mean it requires more digits to operate. It's basically a regular phone with flat buttons that interact upon touch as opposed to pushing, so how do you need more fingers to operate the iPhone? "/ And all the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures. See, maybe if you'd base your responses on factual evidence rather than 'rough ideas', you'd see how silly your comments sound even though you've deluded yourself into thinking they make sense.
So you made something up on the spot there, so it seems and you said in a previous paragraph that I supposedly travelled to the future to try one out :rolleyes:

It would in a normal conversation but not here. We are talking about phones, computers, and modern technology in general. When you refer to the objects an object is composed of as 'things', you refer to a very broad topic that can range from many different mechanisms a device uses. “/ It’s like referring to objects attached to a motherboard as ‘things stuffed inside a computer’, instead of calling them by their real name, it would be very difficult to know what you’re talking about.[/quote]


Yes, they’re called ‘Pre-Installed mobile applications’. And it matters because we’re discussing technology, which has its own terminology. “/
They can't be called "pre-installed mobile applications" because for the simple, obvious reason that no where in that name is there anything to do with quantity... That's what you would call the applications that come with the phone, not what you call a phone which can have lots of applications ;)


It doesn’t matter if its new technology when you clearly believed it was something it wasn’t and then tried to use that against me, which was a mistake since I actually do know what I’m talking about in my arguments.
It isn't much though? It is just another Apple product, it being an Apple product is why people are so crazy about it. If it was something else, less people would care. You know what you are talking about? You didn't even know much about phones before this "/ The contacts argument below somewhere is where you don't know what you're talking about "/


Uh, no? If all the applications on the phone are crappy and hardly work, what's the point of having so many of them if you can’t even use them? “/ Quality over quantity.
Because some phones need applications which only come in a single form. Like Bluetooth Messenger, Face Warp, HP Print, Photo Mate etc all have different uses, which you can't really combine unless the company behinds them descides to move into new things? So the quanity and quality are irrelevant, because you can have a high quanity of applications which deliver high quality results.


Actually it does “/. The phone has four different environments in operates in so different tasks (which would each be in a different environment) would only require the user to switch to that environment, displaying the active task. And when you receive a phone call, the music fades out and the screen goes to the call menu on the phone. “/
Yes, every phone has fading out when a call comes in. It's been around for ages, we established that... How do you know it has this option? It still sounds a bit dull, 4 environments? I am sure it has more applications on it than that which you might need to return to without closing?


So you’re basically going to this by assumption and assuming the phone will eventually have GPS? “/ Making playlists is done on iTunes, which has drag-and-drop so it isn’t necessary on the phone. oO
How did you make that idea up? I said it would be an excellent feature, considering the iPhone is meant to be the next best thing to hit the phone industry "/ I don't assume it will have it, because it is obvious it hasn't got it.

So you have to use iTunes to make a playlists? Wow, the iPhone is looking worse now... With other MP3 Players, you can make playlists on the media player itself? You can make playlists miles away from the computer? So if you need it for the iPhone, you're stuffed?


And yet you still don’t get it. The iPhone’s technology is not what’s being shown. It’s the implementation of that technology and how it will work better than it currently does on other phones. Let’s take the example you used- contacts. Currently on phones, you have to scroll through all your contacts until you reach the person you want to call. The iPhone changes that by providing the user a faster way of doing that simply by flicking their finger up in order to zoom, thereby reaching the contact wanted faster than before. “/
Faster than before?! LOL, are you being serious?! With an ordinary phone, you go to contacts and type the first letter of the contact and it lists them. This is about 10 times faster than the scroll :rolleyes:

You obviously have not used a phone before...


No, it isn’t the same lol. The iPhone has Google Maps, which is very popular system that a lot of people prefer. The phone can also display satellite images of the location in question making it the first phones to do. “/
Sat navs display maps, which means it uses a map system? And why would you need a satellite image? It seems pretty pointless really. "Looks, this is how big my garden is." Just a pointless tool really, only use is the maps system, the satellite views are useless. Although you can't really remove this from Google Maps, because it comes with it.

quote=HUGECOOL]By looks, I didn’t mean appearance, otherwise I would’ve said it. It’s like if I said, “Looking at that phone just made the iPhone sound a hundred times better” I wouldn’t be talking about sound quality on the phone. “/ Concept phones are made to look more aesthetically pleasing because they don’t have all the technology that is going to be used in the final product, so the actual phone will look worse than that. And name calling? Has it become such a chore for you to have a proper argument that you’d resort to insults? “/ And in fact, it wasn’t an insult because unlike you since I’m basing my responses on facts, not assumptions.[/quote]
Well if you meant everything about the iPhone, why couldn't you just use the word "seem?" Which covers everything really "/ And how does the iPhone seem any better? That phone has what the iPhone has and more? Although the iPhone uses the iPod and this phone an MP£ player, they're still the same. They both play music.

Personally, I can't see how it can look any worse. Most the time, concept designs, models and the like end up looking alot of different. Which is what you said, but you did it in such a negative way, rather than a neutral way. The phone could look nice, shaped like a phone, than a Toblerone bar...

I'm basing my information on common sense, facts, reviews and the damn right obvious. And twit isn't name calling, more like using a word on someone who cannot understand the obvious "/


So now the mp3 player you always seem to be praising has a negative side? “/ And the iPhone is smaller than the Zen if you see from the measurements, so a Zen is actually bigger than half a CD case. Wow. People carry these in their pockets? Because according to you, anything that’s half the size of a CD case or larger should be put in coat pocket or bag. “/ And unless you don’t have pockets or they’re really small, anyone can carry something smaller than half the size of a CD case in their pocket. People carry these devices in their pockets all the time with no issues. If carrying something of these dimensions is a personal problem, why should it be everyone else’s? “/
Negative side? That it is "big?" Hardly, at least it is properly designed to slip into a pocket, nicely fits and has been designed to withstand drops to the floor and being sat on, like the iPod Nano seems to be not very good at. Considering loads of reviews on the thing have been "the screen snapped," "I've had loads of Nanos, they've all snapped" and then they end up getting a Samsung MP3 player "/

I don't put my zen in my pocket, I never pay attention listening to music when I walk, so it sits in my bag, like loads of people do with any MP3 player, unless they walk around listening to their music.

Considering a jean/tracksuit or any other trouser pocket is too small, yes I do think it would be wise to put it in a coat pocket or bag, unless you want to hold it?

You must have pretty big pockets over there "/ Can you also have keys, a mobile or a wallet in those pockets too? Although the iPhone is a mobile and an MP3 player, you now have to considering how tall it is. If you sit properly, your trouser pocket goes into an L shape where your hips and upper leg bend. With an iPhone in, which is takes about as much room as your pocket, it won't be able to blend. Plus, it would also be uncomfortable to have in your pocket.

I may just cut a CD case up to the dimensions listed, and see what it is like, but I am not sure if I want to go that level on an internet debate really :P
I never specified an action “/ I said they were notorious for breaking, not that they broke when put in the pocket. “/ So a flip phone is still vulnerable to breaking when its opened, which is any time the user wants to interact with it. oO[/quote]


LOL. See, that’s where you’re wrong (for the 20th time now? Sorry, I lost track.). Your claim: The iPhone is thinner than an iPod Nano. Well, let’s see below;

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4710/iphonehi6.jpg

Wow, wrong again. The iPod Nano is MUCH thinner than the iPhone, and even so it’s still very hard to break because of the new aluminum enclosure. Next time you make a claim, back it up with sources, because apparently the only sources you have are the facts that you’re pulling out of your ***.

And don’t even talk about software crashes. You don’t even know what a .exe file is. “/
Considering I didn't use that site, I got a ruler out. It's still thin "/ and considering the length and if you know anything about physics, it is still likely to snap under pressure, whether or not it is forced upon.

As stated below, the new aluminium enclosure is crap? And aluminium isn't a hard metal either? Play with a can next time, you'll notice.

You also seem to not notice common sense, which is kinda more important than facts and sources. You also don't know how to form someone elses idea. It happens all the time in the world, when someone says something, you think of the probabilities and pick out which one they are obviously talking about "/ Not only does it mean you are clever enough to understand what someone means, it also means you can save alot less time writing.


You’re right- I like sources better than listening to your ‘facts’, which most of the time are just crap. “/ Show me where a new generation iPod Nano has broken in half, not intentionally, and I’ll believe you. All your claims seem to be your assumptions on things even though you haven’t really seen these things happen and repeating what someone else has said. Oh, and no company is responsible for user-caused hardware malfunction. And what material would be ‘appropriate’ for not breaking? As far as I know, any device can break and it just depends on how much a user maintains their product.
So I am meant to take a picture of everything that happens? It is broken, he sat on it, because it is too weak and flimsy and made with crap materials to hold it together, what else do you need to know?

I have seen these things you imbesile. Again, why would I take photos? At the time, I never thought to bother taking photos because I would get caught in an argument "/

My friend, Asher sat on his iPod Nano (it was white) and it snapped.

My brothers girlfriend, Rachel, had an iPod mini which she had engraved. It locked and you couldn't restore it. The reset button would of been useful, if it wasn't hidden and actually worked (hitting the menu and middle button simutaneously). This was suseless, because the whole ring was locked. If Apple had brains, they would have a seperate one which could work on a different circle to reset it.

My friend Nick's iPod Nano (8 GB black) descided it didn't want to turn off when he held down the button that turns it off, it flashed a few times, but never went off. He had to wait for it to turn itself off automatically.

I personally, am not snap happy enough to go "Oh, that's cool let me take a photo" even though you can't take a photo of something that isn't obvious. I would of had to of film it really "/


Updates are necessary to keep devices working properly. But of course, like most people, you don’t care about updates because it ‘doesn’t seem necessary’. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken, right? NO. “/ A lot of people seem to have your way of thinking when it comes to these devices, and its why these people usually come across a lot of issues, and why Apple does this automatically. Many functions are improved during updates and they provide for a better user experience and ameliorate issues that would otherwise cause bigger issues that would cost the company more money (ie- a company that never issued an update for a device would require more customer service employees because more people are complaining about a glitch the device is suffering from, which could’ve easily been fixed via updating.), and the customer would be dissatisfied with the product. Apple automatically does this in order to have their products working without giving people the inconvenience of ‘scavenger hunting’ for solutions to issues that were fixed in a previous update. “/

Christ what is wrong with you? I keep saying this, if it hasn't got any problems, you don't need to update it. It won't magically crash for no reason, something has to be done to it by the user, and considering Creative Media Source filters everything that goes into the Zen, it is unlikely anything would be uploaded to do harm to the player. And you seem to missing out the point that I asked tech support at Creative and they said to have the update only if it is necessary to you, the user. But you seem to miss out this fact. In gasic, simplest form, if it is something like the screen cracking, send it to Creative or the company of the Media Plyer and they're replace whatever is needed. An update isn't as important as you think it is "/

What could possibly be improved. "Get this update, because it makes the sound, sound better" even though it is ok as it is? Unless they add something new, then it is probably the time to get an update, rather than when they are updating a certain thing on the MP3 Player.

[HUGECOOL]

I was considering the Computer world, not the companies as a whole. I probably should of mentioned that How the products work out of the box? I've seen more iPod issues than Creative or Sony issues combined "/ It is also extremely easy to install music into your Zen... You connect it either as it is, or put it as a removeable disk and add the music by clicking upload?

Creative and Sony never saw the need to advertise their products, Apple desperately needed to. I always knew about Apple? Although it probably depends on how easily it was to come by one. When the iPod was released, for about a year or 2 all you could see was iPod advertised
When a product gets popular, it is hard not to notice issues that arise from it. Take Windows for example. If an issue was to arise in Windows, people would announce the severity of the issue to draw attention to the problem. So its not surprising that you've noticed more issues on the iPod than on a Zen or a Sony music player- the iPod is by far more popular, so the number of times an issue arises would be more common. "/ Also, you don't install music- they're not programs.

Actually, Creative launched their $100 million marketing campaign in 2004 for various of their music players. "/ Apple marketing has been way different than just commercials and ads on the paper. Apple's first victory over another music player company was in 2002, when they beat Creative and their hard-drive MP3 player even though it was a cheaper alternative. The secret weapon? The marketing team behind iPod managed to promote the idea that iPod is not just an equipment for playing music, but a whole concept. In December 2002, Apple released iPod models that had the autographs of stars like Madonna, Beck, Tony Hawk and No Doubt. All the celebrities fell in love with the little player, which made a career in video clips, music magazine, even at Oprah’s shows. Because of this, the mainstream became aware of the product in the celebrity world and effectively popularizing the iPod. All companies need advertising, but some do it better than others.

So Microsoft expected that an MP3 player, which has a load of competitors, would take off immediately? I can't see anyone dropping their Zen, iPod or Sony bean or whatever it is, for a Zune immediately "/ That's not how consumers work...
Yes, they actually would. The product, as I said before, was dubbed an 'iPod-killer' because it was thought that it could effectively turn Apple on their head and drive the masses to their product. Hell, I bought a Zune when it came out. "/ It was crap, so I returned it. The Zune's marketing was there as well. "Welcome to the Social" was the main message. But apparently, you can't be in the social unless you're DRM'ed to death by Microsoft. "/

It was argued that Macs get more updates, then it got lowered to they both have roughly the same. And whining? Hardly "/

Comparing the two, and seeing them compared, I'll pick Windows, simply because it does everything at an average level (which is between 4-6). If I wanted something else, I'll download it "/ I also have more use with Microsoft Offices tools, because I cannot use the Apple equivilent because I've never learnt how to use then and I wouldn't be able to send it to college or other people, who all use Windows systems "/

More businesses use Windows, so I'll use Windows incase I ever need to write something to send to a business or company.
Uh, the equivelent to Microsoft office on Windows is Microsoft Office on OS X. "/ It's the same product on another platform, so I don't knwo how you think they're different. The formats used are completely compatible with Windows, so I don't see a need to complain. The only difference is that it looks better. "/

No, I would be reproducing what I've read and researched. But I can see why you would want to drop it. They're both different systems which have uses for different people.
Not really, researching a product is vastly different to using it. I've used Windows for 9 years (I still do) and Mac for only 3, and I have enough experience in both systems to honestly describe the experience on both platforms, and arguing with someone with basic experience in only one of those platforms will only be exhausting and will end in an infinite loop.

Let's say you went to Law School and graduated. Then a layman comes along and starts telling you how to practice law. Wouldn't you become defensive of your education and tell them otherwise? But they continue to argue with you because they've read on the subject on several occasions and feel their knowledge in law is sufficient enough to tell you right from wrong, even though they're incorrect.

That is why I chose not to argue with you on operating systems, their capabilities, or flaws.

Windows still blows Apple out of the competition in some areas. It all depends on what the user needs at the end of the day.
And Mac OS X does the same on the the remaining categories. What's your point? Mac OS X still wins in the end.


Ah but that means I don't need it "/ I don't need to experience a Mac fully to understand the differences between the two systems. Half the time, my criticisms are with facts that are obviously wrong because they go against common sense, knowledge and physics. If it is regurgitating, it means I already know some parts of it and understand how it runs depending on what you've read. You've done it with the sources you've read.
Actually, yes you do. You can make all the claims you want, cite all the sources in the world opposing the product, but if you have no experience with the subject at hand, your arguments are pointless because your experience with it doesn't justify why you'd be opposing it, since you've never had an issue arise while you used the product and basing an argument on how someone else once used it and encountered an issue, and making that situation the basis of a long argument you know nothing about, does not equal to fully understanding the differences between the two o/s's. It's like gossip, and the only justification you have to your arguements is word of mouth.

You could simply recover the computer? Why would an illeterate person touch them? If you're a parent, you could put controls on to stop children deleting them, if they even know how to find "/ If you're a bit more amture, you just wouldn't touch anything you don't know what you're touching.

Again, it depends on the user. If you were advanced, you could play around with the System folder till your heart content, personalising everything. If not, you leave it, simple.
No, it's not that simple.

Why have the inconvenience of needing to recover the computer in the first place, when the whole situation could've been eliminated by not shwoing users important files that they won't even need to interact with in the first place? "/ I said computer-illiterate, or someone with very little knowledge of computers or how to use them. If it was as simple as leaving the system folder alone, computer companies and Internet providers everywhere wouldn't have to hear these problems all the time. "/ But they do, and not surprisingly, most are on a Windows PC.

As you certainly know I don't know much about computers, I only know a certain amount. Not .exe programs are trojans etc "/ .exe files are programs files. Like if I download Zone Alarm for example, that comes as a .exe files which de-compresses itself.

And it is obvious that trojans, viruses and spyware are bad, by definition mainly.

I read a magazine about the two combined in terms of hardware more than software, which the source you gave doesn't describe.

Basically, if you have a problem with a Windows System, it is probably alot easier to sort out than what would happen with a Mac, because they're harder to fix. Although you get Trojans, Viruses and Spyware, this doesn't make them completely better than Windows. They're easier to upgrade in comparison while a Mac is limited and the hardware compatibility is useless.

If you want to implement an idea, it is best with a PC, because it is easier to create an application due to it having more programs available for it because in comparison to Macs, more people use Windows and has alot more authering tools on it. It is also backwards compatible, which Macs isn't fully. There are more programming languages in a Windows to a Mac."

Although, after reading further, I noticed that the argument just loops. So we may aswell let the OS argument die, because we'll be arguing way after this debate dies.
Most malware comes in .exe form because its actually a program. It also easily dupes people into thinking its a normal application when in act its not, and therefore successfully infecting the host computer that runs it, and usually Windows-based.

The source I gave you does not compare computer hardware because, first and foremost, Microsoft does not have their own computer brand- they only make the software. Second, it's because the site only compares the operating systems as a user would compare them in terms of usability, productivity, and out-of-the-box experience.

It's not that Macs are harder to fix, its that parts for Mac computers are not as widely sold as regular computer parts. Upgrade-wise, it can be done, but only on the higher tier Macs which offer more expansion bays and support for non-Mac proprietary hardware. (My macpro can hold up to 16GB of RAM, compared to the 8GB max on a Windows PC. But let's not delve so far into this..)

I wouldn't say it is faster really "/ Pushing the screen is just like pushing a button in some ways. Like the contacts, which is down on the joystick or arrow keys and scroll. Only difference is where the iPhone you don't have to scroll in some cases in a small menu and you just need to press the screen. It doesn't make it all that faster.
To search for a contact on a phone, most people will just scroll down until they reach the contact as opposed to pressing the keypad with the corresponding letter. The scroll function is quicker on the iPhone because it has a roulette effect where contacts will be scrolled depending on how fast or slow a user flicks their finger, and stopped when the user pushes down on the screen.

I never praised the camera though A product doesn't have to be better in everyway to be overally better. It can be on the same level "/
So why is the iPhone any different? That just contradicts everything you've said that opposes the iPhone.

Just because it has been used before doesn't make it old. It hasn't be around for long, which makes it new. It doesn't come down to whether it has been used before "/
o_O I never said it was old, lol. I emphesized the technology being new, to which you agreed saying you never said it was never used before.

I'll get this information next time I see my friend as you might know as Mentor. He had a link to a company who does reviews in magazines which compared the Zen, the Sony Walkman and the iPod. I'll either PM you it or reply when you've replied
Well, look no further. http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/mp3players/0,239036128,240055443,00.htm
That's the review Mentor has shown me before, and the review you're most likely talking about. Oh, and it's from 2005- two years ago, and it was reviewing the iPod Photo, not the Video which substantionally improved in sound quality. "/ (Oh, and r.i.p James Kim, the editor of the article, who died in Decemeber 2006.)

There is about 3 arguments going. One on Windows vs OS X, another on Zen vs iPod and another on the iPhone vs other phones. It started back ages ago, so we might aswell stick to it "/ I always get the off button wrong for an iPod, but the poitn still remains, if you want it off straight away, you have to press and hold a button down, while with other MP3 players, you can just press a button. I think iPod was trying to make a new way of turning something off, without thinking how quick and easy it is to do. Even though holding a button isn't hard.
Well, I guess you concluded your own argument- holding a button isn't hard so it isn't an issue. "/

But you can't really say you need to use the internet in the same extent as you would on your home PC? Considering it costs, it is easier just to use a laptop or Home PC. Also, having a full browser on present day mobile phones is useless, the screens are too small. I think the barrier for small phones is being broken down, which is where the iPhone comes along with the screen for it.
Since the iPhone uses wireless Internet when available, it won't cost you an arm and a leg to use the net on the go. It's also way more portable on the iPhone than it would be on a laptop.

Hmmm, although this feature is good, it is useless in most parts of Britian. There isn't alot of free internet connections we can connect to, unless they can get passed security? Britain pretty much sucks compared to some places where there is networks that are free to use. I don't know much about the US, so answer me this.

Does the US have networks nearly anywhere in city areas that are free to connect to?
Most office buildings never have security on their WAPs so anyone can pretty much use their connection. I can go around with my laptop and find at least one or two stray hotspots whereever I'm at. There are tons of Starbucks coffee shops here as well, and all of them have Internet access. So do many McDonald's here. (Nintendo and McDonalds provide free WiFi mostly for the Nintendo DS, but anyone can use it.)

Well, I was dragged into discussing how a computer works when I only have limited amount of knowledge on them "/ And the source you may have given was probably for the argument about computers, but it doesn't mean I can't use it "/
As I said before, you can use all the sources you want, but you won't know what you're actually talking about until you've used the product.

Not just my opinions, loads of peoples opinions. From official reviews to user reviews, which are probably more important tha official ones, because they're done freely. My arguments are probably bull crap, but they still give out pretty good points
Reviews for what are you talking about? The iPhone? Because it isn't out yet. ;/ Mac OS X? Theres too many reviews of it to distinguish a good one from a bad one because lots of false information has reached people with no Mac experience (ie- you).

I assumed that the iPhone would actually have this technology, most phones and even MP3 players do... It wasn't an opinion, it was an assumption which I thought was obvious, but it seems the iPhone is about as primative as a Sony Ericsson k800i "/ Only advantage is that the iPhone has a full browser "/ This is, of course, missing out the new technology of connecting to Wireless Networks and the touch-pad.
Photo editing on a phone is as pointless as the MotoMixer on Motorola phones. Now, I don't know if the iPhone has a photo editor because I've never heard any being mentioned. "/ And it was an opinion when you said it would be as bad as photo editing on a Mac. When you said 'it would be as bad' <- that would be the opinion. "/

Not if it is exact I can take the idea of the Creative scroll technology and plant Apple on it and make it so it uses a wheel as opposed to a line like Creative has. Hey presto, the Apple iPod has a new feature


Also, say you have an idea of a Golden Mountain. That is taken from somethings in exitence. The colour gold and a mountain. That theory has been around since the Philosopher Hume "/ Pretty obvious nowadays.
Uh, no. If the technology behind the Apple's wheel was the same as Creative's strip, it's copyright infringement of their technology. But if both technologies used a similar technology belonging to antoher company, they'd have to buy licensing in order to use it. "/

And because Hume talks about things in general, not specific ideas, his theories would not apply. then you have the whole patenting offices and makign sure the idea wasn't thought of before creating it, otherwise, you can legally be sued for it.

So you work for iPhone and know how it was created? They probably looked at a PDA and noticed how you can use it as a touch screen. With this, they probably built on this idea. Like, using two finger and making it multi-touch compatible and then developed it further so you can then slide your finger when it is held on a switch.

I've just noticed, that you've contradicted yourself in that last comment...

If it was made out of thin air, you would know. This hardly seems like it was, because something similar has been around for ages. They've just improved on the idea.
No, I came across the article which explained how the screen for the iPhone came to be.
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070119/NEWS/701190357/-1/NEWS01

I said they developed the screen =/= inventing. They developed a screen for the iPhone by innovating on an idea already in existance through different technologies. "/

I was describing one of the actions I witnessed in the video, not the whole phone itself "/
"which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want"

Which two-figner action did you see that required multiple menus to be looked through? "/

The only two-finger input I saw was when zooming in on an image.

I don't need to try one out? I've used phones before and know how they could improve. Only amazing thing about the iPhone so far is the multi touch-screen, which is genious. Just a pity nothing else is amazing about it.
So whatever you saw that was needed to improve should be the only things improved on a phone? So, did you also think of multi-touch and visual voice mail? "/

So it doesn't?! The iPhone is getting a bit basic now... It doesn't need a fully fledged one to do stuff like that "/ On some phones, you get a very basic one which does stuff like that.
And I said before, I wasn't claiming that the iPhone doesn't have this, just that I've never heard of this before. "/

So how comes you said that resizing images is something it does?
I said 'resizing the size between your thumb and index finger' to zoom in or out of photos. oO

So you made something up on the spot there, so it seems and you said in a previous paragraph that I supposedly travelled to the future to try one out
Again, resizing the size between your thumb and index finger. :l

They can't be called "pre-installed mobile applications" because for the simple, obvious reason that no where in that name is there anything to do with quantity... That's what you would call the applications that come with the phone, not what you call a phone which can have lots of applications
No? How about the fact that the term is plural, thereby implying that it's more than one object. "/ it if were one it would simply be 'application'.

It isn't much though? It is just another Apple product, it being an Apple product is why people are so crazy about it. If it was something else, less people would care. You know what you are talking about? You didn't even know much about phones before this "/ The contacts argument below somewhere is where you don't know what you're talking about "/
lol I don't even think you knew what you were talking about there. I was referring to you when you said that that the Prada phone had multi-touch, to which I said that it would only be an advanced touch screen (not multi-touch), and you said it was still new technology- and my responses was that even if its new, it isnt multi-touch. So why are you talking about Apple? o_O

Because some phones need applications which only come in a single form. Like Bluetooth Messenger, Face Warp, HP Print, Photo Mate etc all have different uses, which you can't really combine unless the company behinds them descides to move into new things? So the quanity and quality are irrelevant, because you can have a high quanity of applications which deliver high quality results.
And how many phones actually provide these features out of the box, without having to download anything? "/

Yes, every phone has fading out when a call comes in. It's been around for ages, we established that... How do you know it has this option? It still sounds a bit dull, 4 environments? I am sure it has more applications on it than that which you might need to return to without closing?
4 modes with their own functionality. There is Contacts, Phone, Maps, and iPod. Each of these modes can be doing doing while going away to do something else. When returning, the menu is displayed where it was left off. The othe rone would be the main menu for widgets which are used for quick viewing. "/

How did you make that idea up? I said it would be an excellent feature, considering the iPhone is meant to be the next best thing to hit the phone industry "/ I don't assume it will have it, because it is obvious it hasn't got it.

So you have to use iTunes to make a playlists? Wow, the iPhone is looking worse now... With other MP3 Players, you can make playlists on the media player itself? You can make playlists miles away from the computer? So if you need it for the iPhone, you're stuffed?
And the iPHONE's main functionality is being an MP3 player? And playlists can be made on the iPhone manually, but not smart playlists which is what I thought you meant. "/

Faster than before?! LOL, are you being serious?! With an ordinary phone, you go to contacts and type the first letter of the contact and it lists them. This is about 10 times faster than the scroll

You obviously have not used a phone before...
A phone with no keypad CANNOT use a keypad for finding contacts. "/ And it's faster because even if you provide keypad input to find a contact by their name, you still have to find the contact themselves among others. "/

Sat navs display maps, which means it uses a map system? And why would you need a satellite image? It seems pretty pointless really. "Looks, this is how big my garden is." Just a pointless tool really, only use is the maps system, the satellite views are useless. Although you can't really remove this from Google Maps, because it comes with it.
How are satellite images useful?? Oh, I don't know, maybe because they can allow you to view a place before actually going there?? "/ On the keynote, Jobs used Google Maps to locate all the Starbucks in San Francisco. He then located the one he wanted and called the location simply by clickin on the dot the location was on. I don't know how you can say this isn't useful if people use Google Maps by the thousands on a daily basis. "/

Well if you meant everything about the iPhone, why couldn't you just use the word "seem?" Which covers everything really "/ And how does the iPhone seem any better? That phone has what the iPhone has and more? Although the iPhone uses the iPod and this phone an MP£ player, they're still the same. They both play music.

Personally, I can't see how it can look any worse. Most the time, concept designs, models and the like end up looking alot of different. Which is what you said, but you did it in such a negative way, rather than a neutral way. The phone could look nice, shaped like a phone, than a Toblerone bar...

I'm basing my information on common sense, facts, reviews and the damn right obvious. And twit isn't name calling, more like using a word on someone who cannot understand the obvious "/
As I said before (many, many times before). The argument is not the technology the phone uses, but how that technology is implemented to work on the phone. "/

Concept designs are always meant to look good because everything that will eventually be used in the final product is not included on the product and its just for demonstration, not functionality. Common senses tells you that more mechanisms will be added to the phone for more functionality and thereby making the phone much larger.

So can I call you a *******, because both words basically mean the same thing in a more explicit manner, and it wouldn't be far from the truth. "/

Negative side? That it is "big?" Hardly, at least it is properly designed to slip into a pocket, nicely fits and has been designed to withstand drops to the floor and being sat on, like the iPod Nano seems to be not very good at. Considering loads of reviews on the thing have been "the screen snapped," "I've had loads of Nanos, they've all snapped" and then they end up getting a Samsung MP3 player "/

I don't put my zen in my pocket, I never pay attention listening to music when I walk, so it sits in my bag, like loads of people do with any MP3 player, unless they walk around listening to their music.

Considering a jean/tracksuit or any other trouser pocket is too small, yes I do think it would be wise to put it in a coat pocket or bag, unless you want to hold it?

You must have pretty big pockets over there "/ Can you also have keys, a mobile or a wallet in those pockets too? Although the iPhone is a mobile and an MP3 player, you now have to considering how tall it is. If you sit properly, your trouser pocket goes into an L shape where your hips and upper leg bend. With an iPhone in, which is takes about as much room as your pocket, it won't be able to blend. Plus, it would also be uncomfortable to have in your pocket.

I may just cut a CD case up to the dimensions listed, and see what it is like, but I am not sure if I want to go that level on an internet debate really
??
You on the Zen:
"at least it is properly designed to slip into a pocket, nicely fits.." ('nicely fits' implies that you've put a Zen in your pocket and have concluded that they are comfortable)
then..
"I don't put my zen in my pocket, I never pay attention listening to music when I walk, so it sits in my bag.."

So which one is it- do you put it in your pocket or not? And the reason iPods fit in your pocket (iPod Videos) is because they're slim, which the Zens are not. "/ So why would you want to put something thicker than an iPod in your pocket after saying iPods are too big? "/

Pockets aren't big- just deep. Any pocket can fit a cell phone, iPod, or keys (not all at once) comfortably. "/ Unless you wear those skin-tight jeans, which no one can actually fit in comfortably. And your pocket is actually aligned to the front of your thigh, not the side, so anything inside the pocket would be actually resting on your thigh when sitting. ;/

That's what sizeeasy.com is for. "/

Considering I didn't use that site, I got a ruler out. It's still thin "/ and considering the length and if you know anything about physics, it is still likely to snap under pressure, whether or not it is forced upon.
So, by your reasoning, iPod Videos should snap when you put them in your pocket, because they're as thin as the iPhone. "/


As stated below, the new aluminium enclosure is crap? And aluminium isn't a hard metal either? Play with a can next time, you'll notice.
lol they're not the same kind of aluminium. It's like saying computer material is crap because its made of plastic, and I've used plastic drinking straws and they're not durable at all. "/ The densities of material is different so the results are very drastic. But that should be logic, not soemthing needing an explanation.


You also seem to not notice common sense, which is kinda more important than facts and sources. You also don't know how to form someone elses idea. It happens all the time in the world, when someone says something, you think of the probabilities and pick out which one they are obviously talking about "/ Not only does it mean you are clever enough to understand what someone means, it also means you can save alot less time writing.
Common sense would be knowing what action to take upon reaction of something. Since I am responding to your post, I'm using common sense to do so (because it was directed at me). And I ask for sources of things because you've already been incorrect several times because I've proved you wrong. "/

So I am meant to take a picture of everything that happens? It is broken, he sat on it, because it is too weak and flimsy and made with crap materials to hold it together, what else do you need to know?

I have seen these things you imbesile. Again, why would I take photos? At the time, I never thought to bother taking photos because I would get caught in an argument "/

My friend, Asher sat on his iPod Nano (it was white) and it snapped.

My brothers girlfriend, Rachel, had an iPod mini which she had engraved. It locked and you couldn't restore it. The reset button would of been useful, if it wasn't hidden and actually worked (hitting the menu and middle button simutaneously). This was suseless, because the whole ring was locked. If Apple had brains, they would have a seperate one which could work on a different circle to reset it.

My friend Nick's iPod Nano (8 GB black) descided it didn't want to turn off when he held down the button that turns it off, it flashed a few times, but never went off. He had to wait for it to turn itself off automatically.

I personally, am not snap happy enough to go "Oh, that's cool let me take a photo" even though you can't take a photo of something that isn't obvious. I would of had to of film it really "/
I never said anything about photos? "/ The Internet is great for finding stuff like this. People will usually whine about it on their personal blog and so looking for these things should be easy if they actually happened. So by proving your findings I meant sourcing people on this, not telling me things that happened to your friends. I too can claim my friends had x brand mp3 player and it broke, malfunctioned, and exploded. Does that mean it happened because I'm saying it did? So having a situation you can't actually claim as your source cannot be held in debate simply because the instance cannot be proven factual or false. "/

Oh, and on 'Rachels' iPod, did you geniuses ever try unlocking it first? :rolleyes:

Christ what is wrong with you? I keep saying this, if it hasn't got any problems, you don't need to update it. It won't magically crash for no reason, something has to be done to it by the user, and considering Creative Media Source filters everything that goes into the Zen, it is unlikely anything would be uploaded to do harm to the player. And you seem to missing out the point that I asked tech support at Creative and they said to have the update only if it is necessary to you, the user. But you seem to miss out this fact. In gasic, simplest form, if it is something like the screen cracking, send it to Creative or the company of the Media Plyer and they're replace whatever is needed. An update isn't as important as you think it is "/

What could possibly be improved. "Get this update, because it makes the sound, sound better" even though it is ok as it is? Unless they add something new, then it is probably the time to get an update, rather than when they are updating a certain thing on the MP3 Player.
And again, I'll ignore your reasoning because I know that customer service is popular because of people like you. Firmware updates are like computer updates (Windows Updates, etc). They fix issues that would otherwise go unnoticed by the user to improve the performance of the product. Even though the computer itself is working perfectly, updates are still needed for best performance. "/ Which is why your reasoning is stupid. You don't only need updates when the whole product decides to crap up. "/

[alexxxxx]

I haven't read the whole thread.

But y'know. I use my mac, and only on rare occasions does it crash, I can do my coursework on it, I can use msn, I can play The Sims 2, not compatible with some websites =[, I surf the web, it plays music across my house. It's got loads of other features I use. It's not for everyone, I understand, but it does everything I want it to do, which makes it a good product for myself.

iPod/iTunes - I used to have a shuffle. I found it good for what I wanted it to do, it played my music. iTunes though, i found incredibly annoying, simply because I can't have my music I bought on MP3, for use on other applications. It annoys me. But it looks good and works well.

iPhone - Looks great, and I assume it'll sync like a charm to a Mac, it looks stunning, but only sales and reviews will show how good the product is really is when it comes out. You can't really judge a product before it comes out.

[GommeInc]

When a product gets popular, it is hard not to notice issues that arise from it. Take Windows for example. If an issue was to arise in Windows, people would announce the severity of the issue to draw attention to the problem. So its not surprising that you've noticed more issues on the iPod than on a Zen or a Sony music player- the iPod is by far more popular, so the number of times an issue arises would be more common. "/ Also, you don't install music- they're not programs.
In a small group you can notice the problems "/ That's how some surveyors get the information with products, by analyzing small groups at a time to pick out the pros and cons. Say for example you take 6 people, 3 with one company and 3 with another. You tally the problems and get the outcome. Obviously you wouldn't count all of them globally, because it is a waste of effort and time, because in that time the information would become invalid if the product is updated.

Although the iPod is popular, it still means that each iPod is the same. If Apple let a completely trashed iPod go, they should have the brains to stop manufacteur to see if the whole batch has an error, as do most companies. When you get reviews on an iPod, there are about 5 times more reports on it than a Zen, which would get one or two. This can indicate that an iPod is prone to more problems than a Zen (or other company). t's the fact that the iPod has more obvious flaws than a Zen. A Zen is created to withstand day to day life. The iPod was designed to look pretty above most things "/


Actually, Creative launched their $100 million marketing campaign in 2004 for various of their music players. "/ Apple marketing has been way different than just commercials and ads on the paper. Apple's first victory over another music player company was in 2002, when they beat Creative and their hard-drive MP3 player even though it was a cheaper alternative. The secret weapon? The marketing team behind iPod managed to promote the idea that iPod is not just an equipment for playing music, but a whole concept. In December 2002, Apple released iPod models that had the autographs of stars like Madonna, Beck, Tony Hawk and No Doubt. All the celebrities fell in love with the little player, which made a career in video clips, music magazine, even at Oprah’s shows. Because of this, the mainstream became aware of the product in the celebrity world and effectively popularizing the iPod. All companies need advertising, but some do it better than others.
Apple advertised the iPod at the right time to the right people, but it still doesn't mean the product is any better. Mc Donalds gets celebs, cartoons etc to appear on their products, doesn't mean the food is any better, obviously "/

Sony, Creative, Samsung and so on never needed to advertise, because they were already well known, which is probably where they went wrong. Apple still has loads of battles go on, like this download issues where if you download from iTunes, you cannot play the music on any other MP3 player. They will always be known to some people for copying an idea from one company and effectively winning the battle by notoriously making up at the last minute that they used the technology for years, even though it hasn't. They will always be known to be designed impractical for most users. The only sturdy iPod which I liked was the iPod mini, because it was built nicely and noticebly didn't crash/break/snap like the replacement iPod nano "/


Yes, they actually would. The product, as I said before, was dubbed an 'iPod-killer' because it was thought that it could effectively turn Apple on their head and drive the masses to their product. Hell, I bought a Zune when it came out. "/ It was crap, so I returned it. The Zune's marketing was there as well. "Welcome to the Social" was the main message. But apparently, you can't be in the social unless you're DRM'ed to death by Microsoft. "/
Wishful thinking on Microsofts part by the looks of it "/ And looking at reports from France and other European country, Apple doesn't believe in FairPlay with their "un-social" DRM "/ So if you want a song from iTunes, you have to go use another company. So Apple are just doing anti-competitive behaviour.


Uh, the equivelent to Microsoft office on Windows is Microsoft Office on OS X. "/ It's the same product on another platform, so I don't knwo how you think they're different. The formats used are completely compatible with Windows, so I don't see a need to complain. The only difference is that it looks better. "/
Before this, Apple had their own Microsoft Office called AppleWorks? They still have this I believe, but Apple knew it was crap so they knew what the next best thing was to do, get Microsoft Office, which is used globally by lots of people.


Not really, researching a product is vastly different to using it. I've used Windows for 9 years (I still do) and Mac for only 3, and I have enough experience in both systems to honestly describe the experience on both platforms, and arguing with someone with basic experience in only one of those platforms will only be exhausting and will end in an infinite loop.
I don't even know how I got dragged into the OS argument, I only described the basic information that I know, but the argument developed and I got sucked into it.


Let's say you went to Law School and graduated. Then a layman comes along and starts telling you how to practice law. Wouldn't you become defensive of your education and tell them otherwise? But they continue to argue with you because they've read on the subject on several occasions and feel their knowledge in law is sufficient enough to tell you right from wrong, even though they're incorrect.
He may know just about as you "/ You could study alot at home about Law and still achieve about as good knowledge as a Graduate. This is where Home School comes in. You can learn to do your GCSE's at hoome and still take the exam and pass with flying colours. So this argument is flawed "/



That is why I chose not to argue with you on operating systems, their capabilities, or flaws.
Which I agree on, it's all down to what a user wishes to do with a system.



And Mac OS X does the same on the the remaining categories. What's your point? Mac OS X still wins in the end.
The point is, that Windows is better with what you can do with the system, while OS X is all down to how far you can go because Macs block off areas. More companies are capable of infinitely editting a Windows System to however they please, than what they can do with a Mac. Macs are harder to upgrade hardware wise than a Windows System.


Actually, yes you do. You can make all the claims you want, cite all the sources in the world opposing the product, but if you have no experience with the subject at hand, your arguments are pointless because your experience with it doesn't justify why you'd be opposing it, since you've never had an issue arise while you used the product and basing an argument on how someone else once used it and encountered an issue, and making that situation the basis of a long argument you know nothing about, does not equal to fully understanding the differences between the two o/s's. It's like gossip, and the only justification you have to your arguements is word of mouth.
You don't need experience with something "/ So you're the sort that would drink acid just to know it can kill you? You can use reason in an argument, it is just as good as experience "/ And I've used someone else? No, I've gathered information from loads of people as sources to get an outcome for the argument and how they are run. Apple are an anti-competitive company who are trying to be the best by doing everything, which is actually against the law, by trying to control a whole consumer environment. Choice is what is needed, not everything being Apple Products "/


No, it's not that simple.

Why have the inconvenience of needing to recover the computer in the first place, when the whole situation could've been eliminated by not shwoing users important files that they won't even need to interact with in the first place? "/ I said computer-illiterate, or someone with very little knowledge of computers or how to use them. If it was as simple as leaving the system folder alone, computer companies and Internet providers everywhere wouldn't have to hear these problems all the time. "/ But they do, and not surprisingly, most are on a Windows PC.
It's as simple as having common sense as to not touch stuff you don't know what you're doing. You have to be pretty thick if you see something and descide to delete it "/ And some users do play around with those folders, but they're normally advanced. Again, it is the users fault if they are dumb enough to delete stuff they have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know what it is, leave it. You can hide these folders away with proper administrative tools. It is, what theya re there for "/

So it is simple "/


Most malware comes in .exe form because its actually a program. It also easily dupes people into thinking its a normal application when in act its not, and therefore successfully infecting the host computer that runs it, and usually Windows-based.
People are often told to get a proper working spyware and firewall on their computers, if they are dumb enough to ignore this, they probably deserved it and possibly have nothing important on the system in the long run worth protecting anyway.

I also read yesterday on my Wii that Vista comes with a built in Spyware program, which sounds interesting. But I will wait until all the bugs are fixed until I get it.


The source I gave you does not compare computer hardware because, first and foremost, Microsoft does not have their own computer brand- they only make the software. Second, it's because the site only compares the operating systems as a user would compare them in terms of usability, productivity, and out-of-the-box experience.
Hardware is something a user would need for usability, productivity and out-of-the-box experience "/ Without it, you won't have anything to use, it would just be a blank screen "/ For example, RAM to speed up the computer which makes it faster to use and therefore increases productivity "/


It's not that Macs are harder to fix, its that parts for Mac computers are not as widely sold as regular computer parts. Upgrade-wise, it can be done, but only on the higher tier Macs which offer more expansion bays and support for non-Mac proprietary hardware. (My macpro can hold up to 16GB of RAM, compared to the 8GB max on a Windows PC. But let's not delve so far into this..)
Vista systems can handle far more than 16GB of RAM, but it will costs alot and there is no where to put all the hardware into it. And I agree, delving into this which just be another "this system does roughly the same as this." So the argument which just turn into another argument which will get us off the original argument, which seems to be buried somewhere...


To search for a contact on a phone, most people will just scroll down until they reach the contact as opposed to pressing the keypad with the corresponding letter. The scroll function is quicker on the iPhone because it has a roulette effect where contacts will be scrolled depending on how fast or slow a user flicks their finger, and stopped when the user pushes down on the screen.
Loads of people press the first letter of the contact, the only person I know who doesn't is my mum, who does now because she spent ages looking for a contact and I told her to press the first initial "/ It does have quite a fast scrool action the iPhone, but it is still faster to just type the first letter of the contact in the long run. Especially if you have lots of contact. It will just be tiring and wasteful time, where you need to make that quick phone call:

"Agghh! I need to phone my nan!" *scrolls up* "Nope, that Barbara" *scrolls more* "Nope, thats Fred" *scrolls more* "Nope, that's Jess"

I could go on for ages, but you should hopefully get the point.


So why is the iPhone any different? That just contradicts everything you've said that opposes the iPhone.
Not really? I never praised the Prada phones camera, I was praising the fact that it looks more impressive and has what the iPhone has (expect multi-touch screen) and it is coming out before the iPhone. I never said it was 100% better "/


o_O I never said it was old, lol. I emphesized the technology being new, to which you agreed saying you never said it was never used before.
So where did this argument come from? Were we agreeing to the same thing but discussing it as if we weren't?


Well, look no further. http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/mp3players/0,239036128,240055443,00.htm
That's the review Mentor has shown me before, and the review you're most likely talking about. Oh, and it's from 2005- two years ago, and it was reviewing the iPod Photo, not the Video which substantionally improved in sound quality. "/ (Oh, and r.i.p James Kim, the editor of the article, who died in Decemeber 2006.)
It does look familiar, so I'll go with that. It still proves that reviews Apple did on their product were biased, rather than truthful. Apple were said that the iPod was the best sounding MP3 player when it was released. But Sony has, and possibily still is, the best soudning MP3 player out there.


Well, I guess you concluded your own argument- holding a button isn't hard so it isn't an issue. "/
It's not, but just pressing a button or flicking a switch is easier than holding a button which already has a purpose.


Since the iPhone uses wireless Internet when available, it won't cost you an arm and a leg to use the net on the go. It's also way more portable on the iPhone than it would be on a laptop.
But in most countries, Wireless Internet is hard to come by which is actually free and easy to use. It would be great in places like North (or South, can't remember) Korea and parts of America, but in Britain, you'll just have to pay for it, and us Brits can be very picky about this :P It'll be easier just to use at home, where you can save the files and work just a tab more easily with a full keyboard, than the iPhone keypad.


Most office buildings never have security on their WAPs so anyone can pretty much use their connection. I can go around with my laptop and find at least one or two stray hotspots whereever I'm at. There are tons of Starbucks coffee shops here as well, and all of them have Internet access. So do many McDonald's here. (Nintendo and McDonalds provide free WiFi mostly for the Nintendo DS, but anyone can use it.)
Pffft, you're lucky. At UK Starbucks, you have to pay and most Wireless Connections are passwrod protected or locked down so you can't use them. Businesses ask you to input a username and password, which you can't easily get a hold of. It's very different here in the UK than there in the US.


As I said before, you can use all the sources you want, but you won't know what you're actually talking about until you've used the product.
You can still have some idea, so when you do use the product, you'll know near enough exactly what to do.


Reviews for what are you talking about? The iPhone? Because it isn't out yet. ;/ Mac OS X? Theres too many reviews of it to distinguish a good one from a bad one because lots of false information has reached people with no Mac experience (ie- you).[/.quote]
If they were false, they would be either removed from the website or argued against, and most the reviews are roughly the same in some areas, which hints they are true unless loads of people like wasting time posting false information "/ The iPhone isn't out yet, but you can just alot from videos and pre-release reviews from people who have used one for purposes of a review. As stated, you have to take longer finding a contact.


Photo editing on a phone is as pointless as the MotoMixer on Motorola phones. Now, I don't know if the iPhone has a photo editor because I've never heard any being mentioned. "/ And it was an opinion when you said it would be as bad as photo editing on a Mac. When you said 'it would be as bad' <- that would be the opinion. "/
Photo Editting on a phone makes it easier to edit a photo on the go so you don't have to take it home to edit a photo. You can change the contrast etc with it. It would be good with an iPhone, but nothing has been mentioned, so we'll have to wait.


Uh, no. If the technology behind the Apple's wheel was the same as Creative's strip, it's copyright infringement of their technology. But if both technologies used a similar technology belonging to antoher company, they'd have to buy licensing in order to use it. "/
Apple was proved to have stolen the technology from Creative Labs and had to fork out over $100,000 to pay for its use. And besides, you said earlier tha if you base an idea on something in existence, it would be copyright infringement. So you've contradicted yourself there.

"Ideas are taken from something already in existance? Wouldn't that be called copyright infringement? "/"

Is what you said. An idea and something similar are different.


And because Hume talks about things in general, not specific ideas, his theories would not apply. then you have the whole patenting offices and makign sure the idea wasn't thought of before creating it, otherwise, you can legally be sued for it.
Not necessarily his exact theories, but the idea behind them do apply.


No, I came across the article which explained how the screen for the iPhone came to be.
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070119/NEWS/701190357/-1/NEWS01

I said they developed the screen =/= inventing. They developed a screen for the iPhone by innovating on an idea already in existance through different technologies. "/
Hmmmm, fascinating. So the technology behind the multi-touch screen on the iPhone and Synaptic phone are from different sources, but are roughly the same? There is still a possibility that FingerWorks got the idea orignally from the touch-pad that Synpatics brought out when notebooks/laptops came around.


"which longate the browsing time to get to a certain menu you want"

Which two-figner action did you see that required multiple menus to be looked through? "/

The only two-finger input I saw was when zooming in on an image.
I saw it when he was holding down a button at the bottom of the iPhone and with the other he pressed an icon to open the iPod.


So whatever you saw that was needed to improve should be the only things improved on a phone? So, did you also think of multi-touch and visual voice mail? "/
Visual voice mail is just an improved idea on regular voice mail, nothing too spectacular and out of the ordinary about that "/


And I said before, I wasn't claiming that the iPhone doesn't have this, just that I've never heard of this before. "/
We'll just have to wait till it is released or more information comes out about it. Apple.com has hardly any information on it, like specifications. It just talks about products it has made already and the touch screen.


I said 'resizing the size between your thumb and index finger' to zoom in or out of photos. oO
That's not what you said, you said resizing the pictures, not the gap between your finger and thumb:

"All the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures."

Which was said on the other page "/


Again, resizing the size between your thumb and index finger. :l
So how comes you said it was for resizing the images :rolleyes:


No? How about the fact that the term is plural, thereby implying that it's more than one object. "/ it if were one it would simply be 'application'.
No, it still looks to me that you were talking about the applications already installed on the phone. It doesn't matter if a word has an "s" on the end, it still needs a word that describe "Something that can handle alot of applications on."


lol I don't even think you knew what you were talking about there. I was referring to you when you said that that the Prada phone had multi-touch, to which I said that it would only be an advanced touch screen (not multi-touch), and you said it was still new technology- and my responses was that even if its new, it isnt multi-touch. So why are you talking about Apple? o_O
Because it is still new technology, which an audience want? Regardless to whether it has multi-touch or not "/


And how many phones actually provide these features out of the box, without having to download anything? "/
Sony Ericsson k800i comes with:

Face Warp
HP Print
Photo Mate
Video DJ
Photo DJ
Music DJ
Radio
Bluetooth Remote Control
Sound Recorder

Mainly Sony phones "/


4 modes with their own functionality. There is Contacts, Phone, Maps, and iPod. Each of these modes can be doing doing while going away to do something else. When returning, the menu is displayed where it was left off. The othe rone would be the main menu for widgets which are used for quick viewing. "/
So it's basically another version of what Sony has on their phones of Running Apps, My Shorts cuts and so on?


And the iPHONE's main functionality is being an MP3 player? And playlists can be made on the iPhone manually, but not smart playlists which is what I thought you meant. "/
No, the main purpose of the iPhone is the fact it is a phone "/ How do you know playlists can be made manually? And what is the difference between smart playlists and regular playlists?


A phone with no keypad CANNOT use a keypad for finding contacts. "/ And it's faster because even if you provide keypad input to find a contact by their name, you still have to find the contact themselves among others. "/
A smart feature would be have a menu on the right or left hand side of the screen which has letters of the alphabet which can go straight to the menu. Plus, this argument of how quick it can do certain things came from your argument.

Then you scroll when you have the letter, it still makes it faster than the finger scroll "/ One click which is like a few scrolls with the finger if you are heading towards the middle of the alphabet, then a few small scrolls which still take a few finger scrolls on the iPhone. Do the math ;)


How are satellite images useful?? Oh, I don't know, maybe because they can allow you to view a place before actually going there?? "/
This would be useless in Britain, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to see anything. When it does get close enough, it goes all blurry and you can't really notice anything "/ The iPhone is really only good in America, and London.


On the keynote, Jobs used Google Maps to locate all the Starbucks in San Francisco. He then located the one he wanted and called the location simply by clickin on the dot the location was on. I don't know how you can say this isn't useful if people use Google Maps by the thousands on a daily basis. "/
As stated, you can't see much in a blur "/ You would be better off using MultiMaps.com, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to get any good detail. And if you really wanted to know what a place looks like., surely you would want a more portrait view? Rather an overhead view? "This is a nice roof, let's go there!" This really only effects anyone who doesn't live in America.


As I said before (many, many times before). The argument is not the technology the phone uses, but how that technology is implemented to work on the phone. "/
And as I am stating, you cannot implement a tool any differently on the iPhone than you would on any other phone that may come out with the same features. "/


Concept designs are always meant to look good because everything that will eventually be used in the final product is not included on the product and its just for demonstration, not functionality. Common senses tells you that more mechanisms will be added to the phone for more functionality and thereby making the phone much larger.
So you are going against your idea that the phone would look like that when it is released and stating pretty much what I said?


So can I call you a *******, because both words basically mean the same thing in a more explicit manner, and it wouldn't be far from the truth. "/
Meh, go crazy :D



??
You on the Zen:
"at least it is properly designed to slip into a pocket, nicely fits.." ('nicely fits' implies that you've put a Zen in your pocket and have concluded that they are comfortable)
then..
"I don't put my zen in my pocket, I never pay attention listening to music when I walk, so it sits in my bag.."
Considering the height of it, it can fit in a pocket without a bit sticking out "/ When I did my Zen in my pocket, I was walking, which means my leg can freely move about, when I sat down it was uncomfortable and I just took it out and shuved it in my bag.


So which one is it- do you put it in your pocket or not? And the reason iPods fit in your pocket (iPod Videos) is because they're slim, which the Zens are not. "/ So why would you want to put something thicker than an iPod in your pocket after saying iPods are too big? "/
It goes in my bag normally, it depends if I am in a hurry and haven#t got the time to put it in my bag so I just run off with it in my hand put it in a trouser pcoket or coat pocket "/ The original argument was the iPhone I believe, not the iPod, even though iPod Nanos have been proven to snap in trouser pockets "/


Pockets aren't big- just deep. Any pocket can fit a cell phone, iPod, or keys (not all at once) comfortably. "/ Unless you wear those skin-tight jeans, which no one can actually fit in comfortably. And your pocket is actually aligned to the front of your thigh, not the side, so anything inside the pocket would be actually resting on your thigh when sitting. ;/
No I don't wear skin tight jeans, I like comfort rather than pain :P

Resting stuff on your thigh is worse to rest objects on inside your pocket "/ Because that's where it gets tight and naturally where you leg and hip bend. With pockets that aren't deep, the iPhone cannot fit comfortable unless you really want to see if it can bend.


That's what sizeeasy.com is for. "/
I gathered that after I posted ;)


So, by your reasoning, iPod Videos should snap when you put them in your pocket, because they're as thin as the iPhone. "/
It depends what you do with them really, anything can snap. The most minimal damage is the screen cracking with a video, with the iPhone, it would be the casing, or anything inside. "/


lol they're not the same kind of aluminium. It's like saying computer material is crap because its made of plastic, and I've used plastic drinking straws and they're not durable at all. "/ The densities of material is different so the results are very drastic. But that should be logic, not something needing an explanation.
So it must be a weaker form of aluminium, because if it was stronger than the aluminium of a can, they wouldn't snap so easily "/


Common sense would be knowing what action to take upon reaction of something. Since I am responding to your post, I'm using common sense to do so (because it was directed at me). And I ask for sources of things because you've already been incorrect several times because I've proved you wrong. "/
Not always "/ You can get physical common sense, using reasoning to understand how something could work. Like obviously if you want something with rought the same density of a straw, it would bend with hardly any effort "/


I never said anything about photos? "/ The Internet is great for finding stuff like this. People will usually whine about it on their personal blog and so looking for these things should be easy if they actually happened. So by proving your findings I meant sourcing people on this, not telling me things that happened to your friends. I too can claim my friends had x brand mp3 player and it broke, malfunctioned, and exploded. Does that mean it happened because I'm saying it did? So having a situation you can't actually claim as your source cannot be held in debate simply because the instance cannot be proven factual or false. "/
But if I did link you to a blog about this, then you would just argue that they have no proof about it "/ The fact I have seen these with my own eyes is enough, considering this is hardly a huge debate, it only turned to one because you believe it to be. Considering the forum audience isn't one made up mainly of big time debaters, its main purpose was a pretty basic debate on things "/


Oh, and on 'Rachels' iPod, did you geniuses ever try unlocking it first? :rolleyes:
Of course "/ If I didn't then she would of said she fixed a few days later. But she didn't, she got a different MP3 player in the end, because Apple claimed it was her fault, even though it just locked and never turned off "/


And again, I'll ignore your reasoning because I know that customer service is popular because of people like you.
You're ignoring it because it is true "/ I emailed creative about my problem and they said there is no need to get an update unless I think it is necessary. It was a problem with the screen, which an update won't do "/


Firmware updates are like computer updates (Windows Updates, etc). They fix issues that would otherwise go unnoticed by the user to improve the performance of the product. Even though the computer itself is working perfectly, updates are still needed for best performance. "/
As stated, if it is working perfectly well, why waste time with it? Performance is hardly anything to worry about when it is performing well "/

[quote=HUGECOOL]Which is why your reasoning is stupid. You don't only need updates when the whole product decides to crap up./QUOTE]
This is coming from someone who denies the fact that you don't need to update performance when it is performing well to begin with "/

[Oni]

In a small group you can notice the problems "/ That's how some surveyors get the information with products, by analyzing small groups at a time to pick out the pros and cons. Say for example you take 6 people, 3 with one company and 3 with another. You tally the problems and get the outcome. Obviously you wouldn't count all of them globally, because it is a waste of effort and time, because in that time the information would become invalid if the product is updated.

Although the iPod is popular, it still means that each iPod is the same. If Apple let a completely trashed iPod go, they should have the brains to stop manufacteur to see if the whole batch has an error, as do most companies. When you get reviews on an iPod, there are about 5 times more reports on it than a Zen, which would get one or two. This can indicate that an iPod is prone to more problems than a Zen (or other company). t's the fact that the iPod has more obvious flaws than a Zen. A Zen is created to withstand day to day life. The iPod was designed to look pretty above most things "/


Apple advertised the iPod at the right time to the right people, but it still doesn't mean the product is any better. Mc Donalds gets celebs, cartoons etc to appear on their products, doesn't mean the food is any better, obviously "/

Sony, Creative, Samsung and so on never needed to advertise, because they were already well known, which is probably where they went wrong. Apple still has loads of battles go on, like this download issues where if you download from iTunes, you cannot play the music on any other MP3 player. They will always be known to some people for copying an idea from one company and effectively winning the battle by notoriously making up at the last minute that they used the technology for years, even though it hasn't. They will always be known to be designed impractical for most users. The only sturdy iPod which I liked was the iPod mini, because it was built nicely and noticebly didn't crash/break/snap like the replacement iPod nano "/


Wishful thinking on Microsofts part by the looks of it "/ And looking at reports from France and other European country, Apple doesn't believe in FairPlay with their "un-social" DRM "/ So if you want a song from iTunes, you have to go use another company. So Apple are just doing anti-competitive behaviour.


Before this, Apple had their own Microsoft Office called AppleWorks? They still have this I believe, but Apple knew it was crap so they knew what the next best thing was to do, get Microsoft Office, which is used globally by lots of people.


I don't even know how I got dragged into the OS argument, I only described the basic information that I know, but the argument developed and I got sucked into it.


He may know just about as you "/ You could study alot at home about Law and still achieve about as good knowledge as a Graduate. This is where Home School comes in. You can learn to do your GCSE's at hoome and still take the exam and pass with flying colours. So this argument is flawed "/


Which I agree on, it's all down to what a user wishes to do with a system.


The point is, that Windows is better with what you can do with the system, while OS X is all down to how far you can go because Macs block off areas. More companies are capable of infinitely editting a Windows System to however they please, than what they can do with a Mac. Macs are harder to upgrade hardware wise than a Windows System.


You don't need experience with something "/ So you're the sort that would drink acid just to know it can kill you? You can use reason in an argument, it is just as good as experience "/ And I've used someone else? No, I've gathered information from loads of people as sources to get an outcome for the argument and how they are run. Apple are an anti-competitive company who are trying to be the best by doing everything, which is actually against the law, by trying to control a whole consumer environment. Choice is what is needed, not everything being Apple Products "/


It's as simple as having common sense as to not touch stuff you don't know what you're doing. You have to be pretty thick if you see something and descide to delete it "/ And some users do play around with those folders, but they're normally advanced. Again, it is the users fault if they are dumb enough to delete stuff they have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know what it is, leave it. You can hide these folders away with proper administrative tools. It is, what theya re there for "/

So it is simple "/


People are often told to get a proper working spyware and firewall on their computers, if they are dumb enough to ignore this, they probably deserved it and possibly have nothing important on the system in the long run worth protecting anyway.

I also read yesterday on my Wii that Vista comes with a built in Spyware program, which sounds interesting. But I will wait until all the bugs are fixed until I get it.


Hardware is something a user would need for usability, productivity and out-of-the-box experience "/ Without it, you won't have anything to use, it would just be a blank screen "/ For example, RAM to speed up the computer which makes it faster to use and therefore increases productivity "/


Vista systems can handle far more than 16GB of RAM, but it will costs alot and there is no where to put all the hardware into it. And I agree, delving into this which just be another "this system does roughly the same as this." So the argument which just turn into another argument which will get us off the original argument, which seems to be buried somewhere...


Loads of people press the first letter of the contact, the only person I know who doesn't is my mum, who does now because she spent ages looking for a contact and I told her to press the first initial "/ It does have quite a fast scrool action the iPhone, but it is still faster to just type the first letter of the contact in the long run. Especially if you have lots of contact. It will just be tiring and wasteful time, where you need to make that quick phone call:

"Agghh! I need to phone my nan!" *scrolls up* "Nope, that Barbara" *scrolls more* "Nope, thats Fred" *scrolls more* "Nope, that's Jess"

I could go on for ages, but you should hopefully get the point.


Not really? I never praised the Prada phones camera, I was praising the fact that it looks more impressive and has what the iPhone has (expect multi-touch screen) and it is coming out before the iPhone. I never said it was 100&#37; better "/


So where did this argument come from? Were we agreeing to the same thing but discussing it as if we weren't?


It does look familiar, so I'll go with that. It still proves that reviews Apple did on their product were biased, rather than truthful. Apple were said that the iPod was the best sounding MP3 player when it was released. But Sony has, and possibily still is, the best soudning MP3 player out there.


It's not, but just pressing a button or flicking a switch is easier than holding a button which already has a purpose.


But in most countries, Wireless Internet is hard to come by which is actually free and easy to use. It would be great in places like North (or South, can't remember) Korea and parts of America, but in Britain, you'll just have to pay for it, and us Brits can be very picky about this :P It'll be easier just to use at home, where you can save the files and work just a tab more easily with a full keyboard, than the iPhone keypad.


Pffft, you're lucky. At UK Starbucks, you have to pay and most Wireless Connections are passwrod protected or locked down so you can't use them. Businesses ask you to input a username and password, which you can't easily get a hold of. It's very different here in the UK than there in the US.


You can still have some idea, so when you do use the product, you'll know near enough exactly what to do.


Hmmmm, fascinating. So the technology behind the multi-touch screen on the iPhone and Synaptic phone are from different sources, but are roughly the same? There is still a possibility that FingerWorks got the idea orignally from the touch-pad that Synpatics brought out when notebooks/laptops came around.


I saw it when he was holding down a button at the bottom of the iPhone and with the other he pressed an icon to open the iPod.


Visual voice mail is just an improved idea on regular voice mail, nothing too spectacular and out of the ordinary about that "/


We'll just have to wait till it is released or more information comes out about it. Apple.com has hardly any information on it, like specifications. It just talks about products it has made already and the touch screen.


That's not what you said, you said resizing the pictures, not the gap between your finger and thumb:

"All the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures."

Which was said on the other page "/


So how comes you said it was for resizing the images :rolleyes:


No, it still looks to me that you were talking about the applications already installed on the phone. It doesn't matter if a word has an "s" on the end, it still needs a word that describe "Something that can handle alot of applications on."


Because it is still new technology, which an audience want? Regardless to whether it has multi-touch or not "/


Sony Ericsson k800i comes with:

Face Warp
HP Print
Photo Mate
Video DJ
Photo DJ
Music DJ
Radio
Bluetooth Remote Control
Sound Recorder

Mainly Sony phones "/


So it's basically another version of what Sony has on their phones of Running Apps, My Shorts cuts and so on?


No, the main purpose of the iPhone is the fact it is a phone "/ How do you know playlists can be made manually? And what is the difference between smart playlists and regular playlists?


A smart feature would be have a menu on the right or left hand side of the screen which has letters of the alphabet which can go straight to the menu. Plus, this argument of how quick it can do certain things came from your argument.

Then you scroll when you have the letter, it still makes it faster than the finger scroll "/ One click which is like a few scrolls with the finger if you are heading towards the middle of the alphabet, then a few small scrolls which still take a few finger scrolls on the iPhone. Do the math ;)


This would be useless in Britain, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to see anything. When it does get close enough, it goes all blurry and you can't really notice anything "/ The iPhone is really only good in America, and London.


As stated, you can't see much in a blur "/ You would be better off using MultiMaps.com, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to get any good detail. And if you really wanted to know what a place looks like., surely you would want a more portrait view? Rather an overhead view? "This is a nice roof, let's go there!" This really only effects anyone who doesn't live in America.


And as I am stating, you cannot implement a tool any differently on the iPhone than you would on any other phone that may come out with the same features. "/


So you are going against your idea that the phone would look like that when it is released and stating pretty much what I said?


Meh, go crazy :D


Considering the height of it, it can fit in a pocket without a bit sticking out "/ When I did my Zen in my pocket, I was walking, which means my leg can freely move about, when I sat down it was uncomfortable and I just took it out and shuved it in my bag.


It goes in my bag normally, it depends if I am in a hurry and haven#t got the time to put it in my bag so I just run off with it in my hand put it in a trouser pcoket or coat pocket "/ The original argument was the iPhone I believe, not the iPod, even though iPod Nanos have been proven to snap in trouser pockets "/


No I don't wear skin tight jeans, I like comfort rather than pain :P

Resting stuff on your thigh is worse to rest objects on inside your pocket "/ Because that's where it gets tight and naturally where you leg and hip bend. With pockets that aren't deep, the iPhone cannot fit comfortable unless you really want to see if it can bend.


I gathered that after I posted ;)


It depends what you do with them really, anything can snap. The most minimal damage is the screen cracking with a video, with the iPhone, it would be the casing, or anything inside. "/


So it must be a weaker form of aluminium, because if it was stronger than the aluminium of a can, they wouldn't snap so easily "/


Not always "/ You can get physical common sense, using reasoning to understand how something could work. Like obviously if you want something with rought the same density of a straw, it would bend with hardly any effort "/


But if I did link you to a blog about this, then you would just argue that they have no proof about it "/ The fact I have seen these with my own eyes is enough, considering this is hardly a huge debate, it only turned to one because you believe it to be. Considering the forum audience isn't one made up mainly of big time debaters, its main purpose was a pretty basic debate on things "/


Of course "/ If I didn't then she would of said she fixed a few days later. But she didn't, she got a different MP3 player in the end, because Apple claimed it was her fault, even though it just locked and never turned off "/


You're ignoring it because it is true "/ I emailed creative about my problem and they said there is no need to get an update unless I think it is necessary. It was a problem with the screen, which an update won't do "/


As stated, if it is working perfectly well, why waste time with it? Performance is hardly anything to worry about when it is performing well "/


...Wow i bet your courseworks the size of Lord of the Rings +rep

[GommeInc]

...Wow i bet your courseworks the size of Lord of the Rings +rep
Crums, is that how big our replies are? Gosh, never knew that :s

Anyway, thanks I guess...?

[Josh-H]

It IS a good idea. No debate its a big step forward for the phone industry.


Don't like it? Don't buy it?

[Andys]

Good idea, i'm hoping to get one ;)

[Joe!]

It needs to be bigger than 8gb then i think more people would buy it.

[HUGECOOL]

In a small group you can notice the problems "/ That's how some surveyors get the information with products, by analyzing small groups at a time to pick out the pros and cons. Say for example you take 6 people, 3 with one company and 3 with another. You tally the problems and get the outcome. Obviously you wouldn't count all of them globally, because it is a waste of effort and time, because in that time the information would become invalid if the product is updated.

Although the iPod is popular, it still means that each iPod is the same. If Apple let a completely trashed iPod go, they should have the brains to stop manufacteur to see if the whole batch has an error, as do most companies.

When you get reviews on an iPod, there are about 5 times more reports on it than a Zen, which would get one or two. This can indicate that an iPod is prone to more problems than a Zen (or other company). t's the fact that the iPod has more obvious flaws than a Zen.

A Zen is created to withstand day to day life. The iPod was designed to look pretty above most things "/
When you make claims like those, include the sources for your stats. Otherwise, I'd just be arguing on things you've seen or heard, but cannot actually show- which is what proof is about.

Now, the old iPod did fail (my 4G iPod had to be sent back 3 times, and I got a new one each time.). I won't say it doesn't, but in any instance, sources are still necessary for proof of stats. "/

In fact, I have a site I found that shows iPod reliability by generation and model. http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/ipodfailures.html

I never found one that showed a comparison in these results with another companies, but you probably have it since you included these in your argument.

Apple advertised the iPod at the right time to the right people, but it still doesn't mean the product is any better. Mc Donalds gets celebs, cartoons etc to appear on their products, doesn't mean the food is any better, obviously "/

Sony, Creative, Samsung and so on never needed to advertise, because they were already well known, which is probably where they went wrong.

Apple still has loads of battles go on, like this download issues where if you download from iTunes, you cannot play the music on any other MP3 player. They will always be known to some people for copying an idea from one company and effectively winning the battle by notoriously making up at the last minute that they used the technology for years, even though it hasn't. They will always be known to be designed impractical for most users. The only sturdy iPod which I liked was the iPod mini, because it was built nicely and noticebly didn't crash/break/snap like the replacement iPod nano "/Irrelevant to the argument.
No, other products in its time were better and cheaper (like Creative's Nomad Jukebox player, which my friend bought at the time because a store told him it was an iPod oO), but there was no actual market leader for that market. Which is how Apple became popular. They showed the public that mp3 players did have the upper hand over cd players and didn't have to look bulky and non-portable. As I said before, Apple was more than selling just another mp3 player. They sold a concept, and it was bought.

Wishful thinking on Microsofts part by the looks of it "/ And looking at reports from France and other European country, Apple doesn't believe in FairPlay with their "un-social" DRM "/ So if you want a song from iTunes, you have to go use another company. So Apple are just doing anti-competitive behaviour.
Reminds me of the whole US vs. Microsoft trials back in 98 concerning Explorer. "/

Before this, Apple had their own Microsoft Office called AppleWorks? They still have this I believe, but Apple knew it was crap so they knew what the next best thing was to do, get Microsoft Office, which is used globally by lots of people.
AppleWorks is the equivalent of Microsoft Works (oxymoron? :P), which ships free with almost all Windows-based computers. Microsoft Office is the alternative suite that can be purchased separately as you would on a Windows PC in order to have documents that are compatible on both platforms. Although the Rich Text Format is also available on AW.

I don't even know how I got dragged into the OS argument, I only described the basic information that I know, but the argument developed and I got sucked into it.
Because you kept kept arguing about Mac OS flaws which you haven't actually experienced other than hearing about it, and we went from there. "/

He may know just about as you "/ You could study alot at home about Law and still achieve about as good knowledge as a Graduate. This is where Home School comes in. You can learn to do your GCSE's at hoome and still take the exam and pass with flying colours. So this argument is flawed "/
The only flaw I see here is your response, because I said the person correcting the graduate was a layman. A layman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layman)is 'a person who is a non-expert in a given field of knowledge', so the person would not have a clue what they're talking about. "/

The point is, that Windows is better with what you can do with the system, while OS X is all down to how far you can go because Macs block off areas. More companies are capable of infinitely editting a Windows System to however they please, than what they can do with a Mac. Macs are harder to upgrade hardware wise than a Windows System.
And we've already agreed to that. "/ And I was talking about the O/S not the hardware they run on.

You don't need experience with something "/ So you're the sort that would drink acid just to know it can kill you? You can use reason in an argument, it is just as good as experience "/ And I've used someone else? No, I've gathered information from loads of people as sources to get an outcome for the argument and how they are run. Apple are an anti-competitive company who are trying to be the best by doing everything, which is actually against the law, by trying to control a whole consumer environment. Choice is what is needed, not everything being Apple Products "/
And I was speaking about experience in computer operating systems, not as a whole concept. "/ I said 'the subject at hand', referring to Windows vs. Mac. Apple just make less wasteful products. They attempt to get a hit product every time and don't make many iterations of that product unless its successful.

It's as simple as having common sense as to not touch stuff you don't know what you're doing. You have to be pretty thick if you see something and descide to delete it "/ And some users do play around with those folders, but they're normally advanced. Again, it is the users fault if they are dumb enough to delete stuff they have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know what it is, leave it. You can hide these folders away with proper administrative tools. It is, what theya re there for "/

So it is simple "/
Most people that buy computers have very slim knowledge of computers, let alone how to mange group policies and restrict access from certain tasks, so even if the user themselves delete the file, in the end its Microsoft's fault by making that file viewable to computer-illiterate people in the first place? Different things could be done to ameliorate this issue, one of them being just to provide the user an option to show or hide these folders based on their computer knowledge. "/ So the product is at fault in the end.

People are often told to get a proper working spyware and firewall on their computers, if they are dumb enough to ignore this, they probably deserved it and possibly have nothing important on the system in the long run worth protecting anyway.

I also read yesterday on my Wii that Vista comes with a built in Spyware program, which sounds interesting. But I will wait until all the bugs are fixed until I get it.
That's like saying that "a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place." "/

So you're never getting Vista?

Hardware is something a user would need for usability, productivity and out-of-the-box experience "/ Without it, you won't have anything to use, it would just be a blank screen "/ For example, RAM to speed up the computer which makes it faster to use and therefore increases productivity "/
The website compares the operating systems by buying machines of equivalent specs for both platforms so that the only the operating system is the only difference while performance will depend on how the o/s manages resources. "/

Vista systems can handle far more than 16GB of RAM, but it will costs alot and there is no where to put all the hardware into it. And I agree, delving into this which just be another "this system does roughly the same as this." So the argument which just turn into another argument which will get us off the original argument, which seems to be buried somewhere...
Yeah, that's why I said 8GB, since most motherboards only come with 4 memory slots, assuming each memory stick was 2GB each.

Loads of people press the first letter of the contact, the only person I know who doesn't is my mum, who does now because she spent ages looking for a contact and I told her to press the first initial "/ It does have quite a fast scrool action the iPhone, but it is still faster to just type the first letter of the contact in the long run. Especially if you have lots of contact. It will just be tiring and wasteful time, where you need to make that quick phone call:

"Agghh! I need to phone my nan!" *scrolls up* "Nope, that Barbara" *scrolls more* "Nope, thats Fred" *scrolls more* "Nope, that's Jess"

I could go on for ages, but you should hopefully get the point.
Since each name is listed alphabetically on the iPhone, and separated by big, bold blue lines, it wouldn't be difficult to fast-scroll to the letter and select the contact. oO

Not really? I never praised the Prada phones camera, I was praising the fact that it looks more impressive and has what the iPhone has (expect multi-touch screen) and it is coming out before the iPhone. I never said it was 100% better "/
When you said, "A product doesn't have to be better in every way to be completely better", that pretty much includes the iPhone (since it's still a product, or soon to be anyway), since it isn't completely better but improvements are made in some areas, and since your original argument (from many pages ago) was that the idea of Apple introducing a phone would be a terrible product just because it's from Apple (you argue about quality and audio formats).

So where did this argument come from? Were we agreeing to the same thing but discussing it as if we weren't?
We were arguing on that we agreed, it looks like. o_O

It does look familiar, so I'll go with that. It still proves that reviews Apple did on their product were biased, rather than truthful. Apple were said that the iPod was the best sounding MP3 player when it was released. But Sony has, and possibily still is, the best soudning MP3 player out there.
Sony is a company, not an MP3 player, but they do make MP3 players. And you said Apple claimed sound on their iPod was best? Source this?

It's not, but just pressing a button or flicking a switch is easier than holding a button which already has a purpose.
It's a non-issue. If something as trivial as turning off the iPod were an issue, Apple would have addressed that issue through a possible firmware update. (ie- adding an 'off' option to the main menu). Since a great majority of iPod owners pretty much figure this out when reading the instructions, it's not really something worth investing time and money in.

But in most countries, Wireless Internet is hard to come by which is actually free and easy to use. It would be great in places like North (or South, can't remember) Korea and parts of America, but in Britain, you'll just have to pay for it, and us Brits can be very picky about this It'll be easier just to use at home, where you can save the files and work just a tab more easily with a full keyboard, than the iPhone keypad.

Pffft, you're lucky. At UK Starbucks, you have to pay and most Wireless Connections are passwrod protected or locked down so you can't use them. Businesses ask you to input a username and password, which you can't easily get a hold of. It's very different here in the UK than there in the US.
It would be the same as using mobile Internet on a regular phone. oO Except bigger screen, advanced browser, and so on. About paying for wireless connections, that would still be pretty much solved because when the iPhone doesn't find a wireless connection to go to, it uses the networks Internet. Granted, it's slower therefore less convenient, but if you really needed to see something on the Internet, it would be there no matter where you're at- hot spots or not. ;)

You can still have some idea, so when you do use the product, you'll know near enough exactly what to do.
Yes, you can have an idea on how to use a product. But it's different when you're degrading a product (consumer electronic) without having used it first, basing your grudges on the product on what someone had to say on the product.

If they were false, they would be either removed from the website or argued against, and most the reviews are roughly the same in some areas, which hints they are true unless loads of people like wasting time posting false information "/ The iPhone isn't out yet, but you can just alot from videos and pre-release reviews from people who have used one for purposes of a review. As stated, you have to take longer finding a contact.
Misinformation is what I'm getting at. Some people, through their naivety, can spread information that isn't true and do so without getting caught. Take this individual for example. Larry Bodine (http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/pubArticleLT.jsp?id=1160730321685) describes his terrible experience with an Apple computer and writes about it. All his situations could've been avoided and no issues would have been confronted. Oh, and he's also a marketer- this misinformation was pretty much just trolling for hits, and it worked, so there are many more misinformed people about Macs as there were before.

Which is how the idea of defensive Mac users gets out of hand- when we present knowledge of the product to those who have misinterpreted it, it's often viewed as angry apple fans trolling. =P

Photo Editting on a phone makes it easier to edit a photo on the go so you don't have to take it home to edit a photo. You can change the contrast etc with it. It would be good with an iPhone, but nothing has been mentioned, so we'll have to wait.
The feature would be for convenience I guess, but it's also a preference thing. I do photography sometimes and I'd rather edit photos properly on a computer than doing a sloppy job on the phone and correcting errors on the computer, which would just be counter-productive.

Apple was proved to have stolen the technology from Creative Labs and had to fork out over $100,000 to pay for its use. And besides, you said earlier tha if you base an idea on something in existence, it would be copyright infringement. So you've contradicted yourself there.

"Ideas are taken from something already in existance? Wouldn't that be called copyright infringement? "/"

Is what you said. An idea and something similar are different.
No, it wasn't $100,000 lol. It was $100M. Big difference. :P

If you copy an idea in a patent, BUT use different technology to make it work, it's legal. That's assuming the actual concept wasn't patented and all. "/

Not necessarily his exact theories, but the idea behind them do apply.
Oh, and since his time, patenting and copyrighting ideas have become a whole lot more complicated.

Hmmmm, fascinating. So the technology behind the multi-touch screen on the iPhone and Synaptic phone are from different sources, but are roughly the same? There is still a possibility that FingerWorks got the idea orignally from the touch-pad that Synpatics brought out when notebooks/laptops came around.
'Roughly the same' in the sense that both require finger input to respond. But the technology is extremely different. In the article, it said the creators just took the input methods that were used and made them into peripherals with no hard buttons but instead used touch input, though it could be very possible that Synaptic's technology was looked at since they are a big contributor to laptop input.

I saw it when he was holding down a button at the bottom of the iPhone and with the other he pressed an icon to open the iPod.
He only pressed one button- the iPod button. oO But to get to the main menu which displayed the iPod he pressed the physical Home button first, but both were not pressed simultaneously.

Visual voice mail is just an improved idea on regular voice mail, nothing too spectacular and out of the ordinary about that "/
It's still an improved idea, which was what you were saying in the first place. "/

We'll just have to wait till it is released or more information comes out about it. Apple.com has hardly any information on it, like specifications. It just talks about products it has made already and the touch screen.
Yes, they've hardly released any information on it so the official site is ironically not the best place to look for info at. "/

That's not what you said, you said resizing the pictures, not the gap between your finger and thumb:

"All the videos I've seen with the iPhone, the user operates the phone with one finger, and two when resizing pictures."

Which was said on the other page "/

So how comes you said it was for resizing the images
Yes, I used the term incorrectly in some occasions, and I actually meant zooming in on pictures while resizing the space between your thumb and index finger. But in any case, your initial claim was that the manner in which the iPhone offered that functionality was inconvenient since you assumed the iPhone resized images instead of zooming in on them. oO

No, it still looks to me that you were talking about the applications already installed on the phone. It doesn't matter if a word has an "s" on the end, it still needs a word that describe "Something that can handle alot of applications on."
I just realized here that we were both talking about different things. You were talking about an application that can handle multi tasks, and I was talking about pre-installed applications. And I'm not sure why you were talking about multi-tasking on a phone if you were actually talking about quality and quantity being irrelevant. o_O

Because it is still new technology, which an audience want? Regardless to whether it has multi-touch or not "/
No, that's not the point I was making. Yes, it's a new technology- that's been well established. What I'm pointing out is that is that you said the Prada phone would offer multi-touch as one of its features, which I proved incorrect when I told you that wasn't the case because the touch would only have improved user response, not added functionality- the fault lying in your claims about its touch-screen technology which were incorrect to make.

Sony Ericsson k800i comes with:

Face Warp
HP Print
Photo Mate
Video DJ
Photo DJ
Music DJ
Radio
Bluetooth Remote Control
Sound Recorder

Mainly Sony phones "/
That's one phone. oO And of course cybershot phones would offer those programs. Their integrated cameras are very high quality and so its only logical that a phone with such a camera to offer photo editing programs for convenience to the user. But the iPhone's camera is pretty average- enough for a picture here and there, but its photographic abilities isnt something its contributing to cell phones since there are already phones that specialize in this functionality.

So it's basically another version of what Sony has on their phones of Running Apps, My Shorts cuts and so on?
Not really since it isn't a standalone program- just a function that works in sync to what the user is doing in different modes.

No, the main purpose of the iPhone is the fact it is a phone "/ How do you know playlists can be made manually? And what is the difference between smart playlists and regular playlists?
I was saying that the iPhone's main functionality wasn't being a music player, in a strange sarcastic manner- guess it didn't work. ;l And all iPods offer the option of making playlists manually, and the keynote also mentioned this as well. These are smart playlists (http://www.smartplaylists.com/index.php?id=C0_7_1). Regular playlists would be ones a user manually creates.

A smart feature would be have a menu on the right or left hand side of the screen which has letters of the alphabet which can go straight to the menu. Plus, this argument of how quick it can do certain things came from your argument.

Then you scroll when you have the letter, it still makes it faster than the finger scroll "/ One click which is like a few scrolls with the finger if you are heading towards the middle of the alphabet, then a few small scrolls which still take a few finger scrolls on the iPhone. Do the math
Actually, the iPhone also has a 'favorites' feature where you could just add people you call most often and just choose from there. So the example you gave wouldn't really be an issue if you had relatives on that list.

This would be useless in Britain, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to see anything. When it does get close enough, it goes all blurry and you can't really notice anything "/ The iPhone is really only good in America, and London.

As stated, you can't see much in a blur "/ You would be better off using MultiMaps.com, Google Maps cannot zoom in close enough to get any good detail. And if you really wanted to know what a place looks like., surely you would want a more portrait view? Rather an overhead view? "This is a nice roof, let's go there!" This really only effects anyone who doesn't live in America.
Satellite images are optional, just as they are optional in regular Google Maps. You can still have the normal viewing so it's not as if anywhere that doesn't offer clear pictures would be useless to use this function in. Street names would be shown, directions are there, and even function to find businesses in the area. It's useful where ever you're at.

And as I am stating, you cannot implement a tool any differently on the iPhone than you would on any other phone that may come out with the same features. "/
The way the features work together, how the they work in sync with each other is how the iphone is very different than how these things would work on another phone. With every phone maker, you get a different experience- Nokia's phones and Sony's phones offer the same features but the way they integrate design, ease of use, and functionality in the phone is usually the buying point for many people, who buy the phone depending on what they are going to use the phone for and if the phone offers the functionality on which to use these functions on.

So you are going against your idea that the phone would look like that when it is released and stating pretty much what I said?
I am agreeing with your response which agreed with mine on this. oO

Meh, go crazy
I'd rather not. ;)

Considering the height of it, it can fit in a pocket without a bit sticking out "/ When I did my Zen in my pocket, I was walking, which means my leg can freely move about, when I sat down it was uncomfortable and I just took it out and shuved it in my bag.

It goes in my bag normally, it depends if I am in a hurry and haven#t got the time to put it in my bag so I just run off with it in my hand put it in a trouser pcoket or coat pocket "/ The original argument was the iPhone I believe, not the iPod, even though iPod Nanos have been proven to snap in trouser pockets "/

No I don't wear skin tight jeans, I like comfort rather than pain

Resting stuff on your thigh is worse to rest objects on inside your pocket "/ Because that's where it gets tight and naturally where you leg and hip bend. With pockets that aren't deep, the iPhone cannot fit comfortable unless you really want to see if it can bend.
tbh, this just depends on user preference, and its pointless arguing on something that will be eventually be done anyway despite measurements, fragility, and other physical properties of mobile devices. Some people prefer them in their pockets while others lug around bags to put their junk in. And others just clip them outside their clothes for faster access.

I gathered that after I posted
Yeah, even though I used the same site for the third time?

It depends what you do with them really, anything can snap. The most minimal damage is the screen cracking with a video, with the iPhone, it would be the casing, or anything inside. "/
iPod Videos are not as prone to having the display broken when put in a bag as a smaller iPod would. That's why people buy insurance for their products upon purchase. Since the iPhone is going to be sold through wireless carriers, I'm pretty positive they're going to offer insurance policies for it.

So it must be a weaker form of aluminium, because if it was stronger than the aluminium of a can, they wouldn't snap so easily "/

Not always "/ You can get physical common sense, using reasoning to understand how something could work. Like obviously if you want something with rought the same density of a straw, it would bend with hardly any effort "/
It's the same kind that was used on the iPod Mini, which you yourself stated that was the best iPod made- so you're only contradicting yourself when you fault the casing here and praise it in a previous argument. o_O

But if I did link you to a blog about this, then you would just argue that they have no proof about it "/ The fact I have seen these with my own eyes is enough, considering this is hardly a huge debate, it only turned to one because you believe it to be. Considering the forum audience isn't one made up mainly of big time debaters, its main purpose was a pretty basic debate on things "/
Usually bloggers have photos of their happenings, because most bloggers are narcissistic about themselves. Which would be like accusing a priest of piety tbh. :rolleyes: But anyway, blogs would be sources. What I'm getting at is having some third party website show these happenings or explain a situation is a source. Validity would just be based on past posts made by the blogger and such- nothing big.

Of course "/ If I didn't then she would of said she fixed a few days later. But she didn't, she got a different MP3 player in the end, because Apple claimed it was her fault, even though it just locked and never turned off "/
Oh, and if the iPod was unable to unlock you can just connect it a computer via USB and it unlocks automatically. If something were wrong with the firmware, a simple restore would fix any firmware issue. All that could be found on the Apple site for troubleshooting iPods. I'm guessing visiting the website was never an option? "/

You're ignoring it because it is true "/ I emailed creative about my problem and they said there is no need to get an update unless I think it is necessary. It was a problem with the screen, which an update won't do "/
No, lol. I'm ignoring it because I know how someone of your technological expertise (slim to none) would handle a situation that little help and just common sense user maintenance. "/ And someone without knowledge on how electronics work would know when an update is needed? Really? :rolleyes:

As stated, if it is working perfectly well, why waste time with it? Performance is hardly anything to worry about when it is performing well "/

This is coming from someone who denies the fact that you don't need to update performance when it is performing well to begin with "/
Again, let's go with the Windows Updates example. Let's say your computer was running perfectly- no troubles or issues. Windows Updates has updates for your computer, but your logic says 'The computer is working fine- why should I update?". So you don't update. A very important patch was included in that update which you never installed so you start experiencing issues when doing certain tasks. So your initial reaction would be to blame the product even though the fault lies in you not wanting to update because its 'time consuming'. So you've established that its the product's fault for not working properly. So the computer suddenly stop working and you re-install everything and update it this time. And everything could've been avoided by updating. But you'll probably never understand- but that's a good thing. You're the reason customer service exists and provide many individuals with jobs assisting people with your 'Don't fix it if it ain't broken' mindset. So, here's a collective 'thanks' from customer service around the world. ;)

(Oh, I won't be here for a couple of days due to a family emergency, so I'll reply when I come back to town.)

And btw, your writing style changed- not that its good or bad- just something I noticed. Looks like someone else's.

[GommeInc]

[COLOR="Black"]
When you make claims like those, include the sources for your stats. Otherwise, I'd just be arguing on things you've seen or heard, but cannot actually show- which is what proof is about.
How am I meant to get a source for something that is practically everywhere? If you do Business Studies, go find a book and look up marketing. If you do Leisure and Tourism, go look up marketing in one of those books "/ Dove, a soap company, took about 8 women and let them use their product for free for about 2 weeks to see what happened and got them to report back. Danone, a yoghurt company surveyed a group of women with digestive discomfort and got them to report back "/

It's hardly something you need proof for, especially when it is a common trait in businesses "/ They don't see the point in asking hundreds or thoasands of people, they just ask a small group.


Now, the old iPod did fail (my 4G iPod had to be sent back 3 times, and I got a new one each time.). I won't say it doesn't, but in any instance, sources are still necessary for proof of stats. "/


In fact, I have a site I found that shows iPod reliability by generation and model. http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/ipodfailures.html

I never found one that showed a comparison in these results with another companies, but you probably have it since you included these in your argument.
As stated in my first reply, just ask around your college/school/workplace and do a sort of mental survey. Unless Apple seem to like distributing faulty good to certain areas, and excellent goods to other, then the results are pretty accurate.


No, other products in its time were better and cheaper (like Creative's Nomad Jukebox player, which my friend bought at the time because a store told him it was an iPod oO), but there was no actual market leader for that market. Which is how Apple became popular. They showed the public that mp3 players did have the upper hand over cd players and didn't have to look bulky and non-portable. As I said before, Apple was more than selling just another mp3 player. They sold a concept, and it was bought.
An MP3 player has been around for years, people went to them if they wanted to. They weren't talked about much "/ You simply plug in, and play. Creative brought out the Zen, which was just a bit bigger than a Mini, which came just before Apple made drive-based MP3 players known. Creative never seized it, because their mistake was thinking that people would slowly convert. Apple forcefully made itself known by advertising in most tech shops and intrigued audiences about it.

Apple, as you said, intercepted and made it known to people who didn't give one bit of notice to this. Clever, really.


Reminds me of the whole US vs. Microsoft trials back in 98 concerning Explorer. "/
That is irrelevant to the argument. Apple still are being anti-competitive with their iTunes so that if you have anything owned/created by Apple, you are pretty well ok. If you have anything else, you're stuffed. Apple have Safari, so they have nothing to moan about with IE. Even though IE is available for Mac users.

The case was resolved anyway, so Apple are just being petty really "/


AppleWorks is the equivalent of Microsoft Works (oxymoron? :P), which ships free with almost all Windows-based computers. Microsoft Office is the alternative suite that can be purchased separately as you would on a Windows PC in order to have documents that are compatible on both platforms. Although the Rich Text Format is also available on AW.
So how comes you said Macs don't have an alterative "/ You made it sound as if Macs had Microsoft Works which you can make more advanced by getting MS Office.


Because you kept kept arguing about Mac OS flaws which you haven't actually experienced other than hearing about it, and we went from there. "/
Considering I read about it and what I discussed was pretty much proved correct. It advanced into catagories I haven't read about nor felt the need to discuss.


The only flaw I see here is your response, because I said the person correcting the graduate was a layman. A layman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layman)is 'a person who is a non-expert in a given field of knowledge', so the person would not have a clue what they're talking about. "/
You can still be a "non-expert" and still know what you are discussing "/ Unless you feel you can self-proclaim it or have secretly taken a degree and become a master. So yeah, you can still learn and pretty much no everything without being an expert, unless it is self-proclaimed or there is proof you are an expert.


And we've already agreed to that. "/ And I was talking about the O/S not the hardware they run on.
That was a conclusional example to pretty much briefly describe one flaw, rather than a string of flaws which would conquer the idea of it being brief. The O/S is kinda what makes them different, you can edit or create your own, customised applications in a business and hardwire it into the system.


And I was speaking about experience in computer operating systems, not as a whole concept. "/ I said 'the subject at hand', referring to Windows vs. Mac. Apple just make less wasteful products. They attempt to get a hit product every time and don't make many iterations of that product unless its successful.
But people prefer choice and customisation, rather than "this product being the only one you can get, you'll have to wait till they make something like that."


Most people that buy computers have very slim knowledge of computers, let alone how to mange group policies and restrict access from certain tasks, so even if the user themselves delete the file, in the end its Microsoft's fault by making that file viewable to computer-illiterate people in the first place? Different things could be done to ameliorate this issue, one of them being just to provide the user an option to show or hide these folders based on their computer knowledge. "/ So the product is at fault in the end.
Ah but it isn't viewable to begin with... Windows hide them when you first look into the folder, you can ask to keep them hidden or have a look anyway at your own discression. If you foul up, it's your fault for going against what the system says when you first look at that folder. At least, that's what Window XP systems say "/


That's like saying that "a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place." "/
Considering there isn't restrictions on a PC like being trapped in a well, the example is a bit shakey. You deserved falling down the well for playing around it, but you still deserved to be saved.

With a PC, you should read the precautions and if you muck up, you can simply call Windows OR input the Windows Installation CD OR read the Windows Manual to see how you can restore it OR Go on another PC and look at the FAQ's on the Microsoft Website.

When you're down a well, you don't get these resources, other than some dirt.


So you're never getting Vista?
Lol clever :P I might do, I'll wait till all the major bugs are fixed.


The website compares the operating systems by buying machines of equivalent specs for both platforms so that the only the operating system is the only difference while performance will depend on how the o/s manages resources. "/
But each system has a different way of handling the resources it has? If an XP PC has 1GB of RAM and the OS X has the same, the OS X will obviously work faster, because it is their nature to be quite fast machines, as far as I am aware at least "/ Again, to a user, this varies how they use it, produce from it anything and out-of-box experience. Unless they can get different specs that make them roughly the same, but that would be difficult and possibly impossible,


Yeah, that's why I said 8GB, since most motherboards only come with 4 memory slots, assuming each memory stick was 2GB each.
I thought XP machines can't handle more than 4GB? Or am I thinking of laptops? Either way, when the new machines are out with Vista pre-installed, I imagine inside each PC would be more than 4 slots. The way it has been told in the news and in newspapers kinda hints this.


Since each name is listed alphabetically on the iPhone, and separated by big, bold blue lines, it wouldn't be difficult to fast-scroll to the letter and select the contact. oO
Seems like it would, if there are big, bold lines seperating each contact. This means that the contact list wile just be longer. Again, pressing one button and finding someone with that initial is just a bit faster. Especially when, looking at the iPhone in action, you may scroll past by accident.


When you said, "A product doesn't have to be better in every way to be completely better", that pretty much includes the iPhone (since it's still a product, or soon to be anyway), since it isn't completely better but improvements are made in some areas, and since your original argument (from many pages ago) was that the idea of Apple introducing a phone would be a terrible product just because it's from Apple (you argue about quality and audio formats).
My original argument was that Apple are just trying to make themselves into a huge conglomerate "/ or a company that is trying to be incharge of everything. I think conglomerate maybe the wrong word.


We were arguing on that we agreed, it looks like. o_O
Ha, I find it funny when that happens.


Sony is a company, not an MP3 player, but they do make MP3 players. And you said Apple claimed sound on their iPod was best? Source this?
When I meant Sony, I was talking about the MP3 Players they have their name on. I said Apple were said, which doesn't mean Apple said it themselves, but loads of people seem to think they are.


It's a non-issue. If something as trivial as turning off the iPod were an issue, Apple would have addressed that issue through a possible firmware update. (ie- adding an 'off' option to the main menu). Since a great majority of iPod owners pretty much figure this out when reading the instructions, it's not really something worth investing time and money in.
In arguments, you may aswell go through all the trivial matters to pick out all the weak spots :rolleyes:


It would be the same as using mobile Internet on a regular phone. oO Except bigger screen, advanced browser, and so on. About paying for wireless connections, that would still be pretty much solved because when the iPhone doesn't find a wireless connection to go to, it uses the networks Internet. Granted, it's slower therefore less convenient, but if you really needed to see something on the Internet, it would be there no matter where you're at- hot spots or not. ;)
As true as this is, people don't want to pay to use the internet (well, in the country at least) on their phones. That is, if the iPhone is coming to O2, Tescos, 3 and so on. You might have to use some other company which might not have the great features like O2 Pay and Go, which sometimes does free texts if you're an old, loyal customer. It's about as easy just going to a computer, where you can save the image or line of text with a few mere clicks of a mouse. Again, it depends if the iPhone version of Safari allows you to save images.


Yes, you can have an idea on how to use a product. But it's different when you're degrading a product (consumer electronic) without having used it first, basing your grudges on the product on what someone had to say on the product.
Not entirely different, no. You can hear that it doesn't so a certain thing and think "Oh, well, I don't want it then." Degrading is about as good as praising, even though praising is probably harder to do "/


Misinformation is what I'm getting at. Some people, through their naivety, can spread information that isn't true and do so without getting caught. Take this individual for example. Larry Bodine (http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/pubArticleLT.jsp?id=1160730321685) describes his terrible experience with an Apple computer and writes about it. All his situations could've been avoided and no issues would have been confronted. Oh, and he's also a marketer- this misinformation was pretty much just trolling for hits, and it worked, so there are many more misinformed people about Macs as there were before.
You get the same with PCs, where someone can easily come along and fix it. You have to be insane to judge your information on one individual. You pick out the possibilities and if there are more obvious possibilities in one thing, you go with that. Although, sometimes this isn;t the case, and you have to imploy logic.


Which is how the idea of defensive Mac users gets out of hand- when we present knowledge of the product to those who have misinterpreted it, it's often viewed as angry apple fans trolling. =P
Lol that's quite a funny phrase.


The feature would be for convenience I guess, but it's also a preference thing. I do photography sometimes and I'd rather edit photos properly on a computer than doing a sloppy job on the phone and correcting errors on the computer, which would just be counter-productive.
If you do Photography... Surely you would do it on a proper camera, preferrably D-SLR? Although you can get good camera phone photos, they're hardly as good quality or big enough even, to edit at home on a PC "/ And the editting programs are a good idea only for fun snaps or snaps that you want to quickly edit and show people as soon as possible, rather than big professional photos. Even so, it is better to take a photo as best it can be, without the need of editting it ;) (I do photgraphy at college)


No, it wasn't $100,000 lol. It was $100M. Big difference. :P
I didn't want it to seem too big :P Even though they are 2 companies and alot of money would be used lol :P


If you copy an idea in a patent, BUT use different technology to make it work, it's legal. That's assuming the actual concept wasn't patented and all. "/
There is a huge possibility you can backtrack the ideas and reveal that the original concept was infact stolen from something, as you said, if it was patent.


Oh, and since his time, patenting and copyrighting ideas have become a whole lot more complicated.
Did they even have copyright back then? I doubt you could know if your idea was roughly the same or even tell if someone stole the idea and developed on it...


'Roughly the same' in the sense that both require finger input to respond. But the technology is extremely different. In the article, it said the creators just took the input methods that were used and made them into peripherals with no hard buttons but instead used touch input, though it could be very possible that Synaptic's technology was looked at since they are a big contributor to laptop input.
Which is where this idea that Apple probably copied the idea from kindles. But as you said, the tech behind them could be very different and are just similar in the way they act.


He only pressed one button- the iPod button. oO But to get to the main menu which displayed the iPod he pressed the physical Home button first, but both were not pressed simultaneously.
It looked like he pressed 2 at the time "/


It's still an improved idea, which was what you were saying in the first place. "/
So we were arguing over the same thing and were really just agreeing?


Yes, they've hardly released any information on it so the official site is ironically not the best place to look for info at. "/
Surely it is? Considering they've created it and have talked about it...


Yes, I used the term incorrectly in some occasions, and I actually meant zooming in on pictures while resizing the space between your thumb and index finger. But in any case, your initial claim was that the manner in which the iPhone offered that functionality was inconvenient since you assumed the iPhone resized images instead of zooming in on them. oO
I was talking about that they did use them to zoom in, but using the fingers is not as accurate as it can be. A single finger input could be more accurate.


I just realized here that we were both talking about different things. You were talking about an application that can handle multi tasks, and I was talking about pre-installed applications. And I'm not sure why you were talking about multi-tasking on a phone if you were actually talking about quality and quantity being irrelevant. o_O
I thought the argument was going a bit, flat... My argument was a phone that can handle alot of applications, rather than has alot of applications which the argument started on quality and quantity, I think?


No, that's not the point I was making. Yes, it's a new technology- that's been well established. What I'm pointing out is that is that you said the Prada phone would offer multi-touch as one of its features, which I proved incorrect when I told you that wasn't the case because the touch would only have improved user response, not added functionality- the fault lying in your claims about its touch-screen technology which were incorrect to make.
I think I got confused with this. The Prada phone was being advertised along side the iPhone and Synpatics phone on that website I shown, which never did specify properly what it did, so I assumed it was the same as the two and had multi-touch.


That's one phone. oO And of course cybershot phones would offer those programs. Their integrated cameras are very high quality and so its only logical that a phone with such a camera to offer photo editing programs for convenience to the user. But the iPhone's camera is pretty average- enough for a picture here and there, but its photographic abilities isnt something its contributing to cell phones since there are already phones that specialize in this functionality.
I know, amazing how much it has on it really "/ I wouldn't say a Cyber-Shot phone needs all them, considering the other Sony Ericsson phone which is the W200i has the same programs, just lacks Cyber-Shot. The Photo Editting on the phone is just one application afterall, and it has more of a purpose editting bad images, which phones without cyber-shot do need more than the k800i to make them look a bit better. Considering Apple has alot of programs, one which I hpe it has, which is photo editting, I kinda would of that it would have the ability to edit the photos, and the mistake you made about resizing also backed this idea. Not your fault really, shouldn't guess on someones mistakes :)


Not really since it isn't a standalone program- just a function that works in sync to what the user is doing in different modes.
There is some similarity still in there, although the Sony phones have it so it is any application/function, rather than different modes.


I was saying that the iPhone's main functionality wasn't being a music player, in a strange sarcastic manner- guess it didn't work. ;l And all iPods offer the option of making playlists manually, and the keynote also mentioned this as well. These are smart playlists (http://www.smartplaylists.com/index.php?id=C0_7_1). Regular playlists would be ones a user manually creates.
Smart Playlists sound strange really "/ It kinda sound similary to what any MP3 player does and picks out what the rating is on the song (by you) and the genre. You can create playlists with other phones on the phone too, it would be a good idea if this came with the iPhone too, considering the iPod is one of the major functions "/


Actually, the iPhone also has a 'favorites' feature where you could just add people you call most often and just choose from there. So the example you gave wouldn't really be an issue if you had relatives on that list.
Still a bummer if you want to find someone you don't regularly call but need to. Quick-Dial is coming into mind now...


Satellite images are optional, just as they are optional in regular Google Maps. You can still have the normal viewing so it's not as if anywhere that doesn't offer clear pictures would be useless to use this function in. Street names would be shown, directions are there, and even function to find businesses in the area. It's useful where ever you're at.
Suppose so, but with this Synaptics phone, you could just read the street name and wait till you get to your location to find out where you are. Wanting to know what an area looks like before hand is pretty strange really, only on the rare occasion you'll need it "/

And yes, I do know that the satellite option is, just an option. It is strange to think people will need it "/ Other than when you want to look at bird eye views of a building. I suppose you could investigate further by going on the wireless internet to get a view of the building from infront.


The way the features work together, how the they work in sync with each other is how the iphone is very different than how these things would work on another phone. With every phone maker, you get a different experience- Nokia's phones and Sony's phones offer the same features but the way they integrate design, ease of use, and functionality in the phone is usually the buying point for many people, who buy the phone depending on what they are going to use the phone for and if the phone offers the functionality on which to use these functions on.
Precisely, which is where the option of choice comes from. If a phone has what you got, or you like a certain brand, you'll go for that. It depends what the iPhone appeals to in the end. Business men and women or Gadget lovers it appears.


I am agreeing with your response which agreed with mine on this. oO
Ah, makes sense.


I'd rather not. ;)
Really? Fine then :P


tbh, this just depends on user preference, and its pointless arguing on something that will be eventually be done anyway despite measurements, fragility, and other physical properties of mobile devices. Some people prefer them in their pockets while others lug around bags to put their junk in. And others just clip them outside their clothes for faster access.
Indeed. I think we were steering away from user preference and are only now just returning to it "/ It depends how wild you are with expensive/new things.


Yeah, even though I used the same site for the third time?
I know, it never came to me to use it :P


iPod Videos are not as prone to having the display broken when put in a bag as a smaller iPod would. That's why people buy insurance for their products upon purchase. Since the iPhone is going to be sold through wireless carriers, I'm pretty positive they're going to offer insurance policies for it.
Most phones have some sort of warranty on, so it is very likely it will have one too. Just a bit of a bummer if you snap it and need to send it away and have no phone for a while. Again, it depends what you do with the iPod Video and the bag was what I voted as the safest place :P


It's the same kind that was used on the iPod Mini, which you yourself stated that was the best iPod made- so you're only contradicting yourself when you fault the casing here and praise it in a previous argument. o_O
The iPod Mini was in a thicker case and was thicker itself. It also felt nicer to hold, rather than the Nano which is a bit smaller and smooth and the video too wide.


Usually bloggers have photos of their happenings, because most bloggers are narcissistic about themselves. Which would be like accusing a priest of piety tbh. :rolleyes: But anyway, blogs would be sources. What I'm getting at is having some third party website show these happenings or explain a situation is a source. Validity would just be based on past posts made by the blogger and such- nothing big.
At the end of the day, it isn't really a bit thing, unless you love your possession so much you want to blog about it. I suppose one would of blogged about it, but he didn't and the rest aren't exactly hardcose bloggers :P Trust me on that one.


Oh, and if the iPod was unable to unlock you can just connect it a computer via USB and it unlocks automatically. If something were wrong with the firmware, a simple restore would fix any firmware issue. All that could be found on the Apple site for troubleshooting iPods. I'm guessing visiting the website was never an option? "/
I suggested this too, because anything seems to unlock when connected to a PC, but it never did. I think it must of been a big hardware problem. How it happened I don't know "/ She visited that, it didn't help in the end. As I said, she just got a different MP3 Player and gave up.


No, lol. I'm ignoring it because I know how someone of your technological expertise (slim to none) would handle a situation that little help and just common sense user maintenance. "/ And someone without knowledge on how electronics work would know when an update is needed? Really? :rolleyes:
How is something someone else has said got to do with me, and I know average knowledge about Technology, it depends what it is about. While you probably know a few steps down from expert (I probably offended you, I was trying not to praise you too much, I am mean like that). And it is obvious really, if it stops or the player starts playing really badly, you'll know when to get an update, unless otherwise, you leave it till it does.


Again, let's go with the Windows Updates example. Let's say your computer was running perfectly- no troubles or issues. Windows Updates has updates for your computer, but your logic says 'The computer is working fine- why should I update?". So you don't update. A very important patch was included in that update which you never installed so you start experiencing issues when doing certain tasks. So your initial reaction would be to blame the product even though the fault lies in you not wanting to update because its 'time consuming'. So you've established that its the product's fault for not working properly. So the computer suddenly stop working and you re-install everything and update it this time. And everything could've been avoided by updating. But you'll probably never understand- but that's a good thing. You're the reason customer service exists and provide many individuals with jobs assisting people with your 'Don't fix it if it ain't broken' mindset. So, here's a collective 'thanks' from customer service around the world. ;)
Considering a OS is an entirely different bucket of fish, of course you'll need an update. An OS has information travelling in and out of it far more than an MP3 player would ever dream to have. There are also lots more ways to harm a computer, than an MP3 player. Like as you said, deleting the files in System32.


(Oh, I won't be here for a couple of days due to a family emergency, so I'll reply when I come back to town.)
Eeek, hope everything is ok afterwards?


And btw, your writing style changed- not that its good or bad- just something I noticed. Looks like someone else's.
Has it? I've noticed something about your replies they each have gaps inbetween paragraphs, while before I had to make them myself when quoting.

[Mentor]

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90&#37; of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.

[Oni]

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90% of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.
Oh im goin to go off on another tangent.

Why get a ps3 when there are wiis available?

[GommeInc]

http://uk.europe.creative.com/support/downloads/

Just to confirm that Creative do actually say you don't need to update your Zens if you are not experiencing any problems. It was in the most simpliest place to look, yet I never bothered to look at the obvious place :P


Do you need to update your drivers?
You should only update your drivers if you are experiencing issues with your product.

[Mentor]

Oh im goin to go off on another tangent.

Why get a ps3 when there are wiis available?

because the Ps3 is a fully next gen console, which will be entertaing gamers for years to come judging from sonys track record for gameing consoles, and wiis are little more than a gimic, which will loose popularity pretty fast, seeing as the gimic is really just a more expencive yet inferior technolgy to what you get with an eye toy "/

[HUGECOOL]

How am I meant to get a source for something that is practically everywhere? If you do Business Studies, go find a book and look up marketing. If you do Leisure and Tourism, go look up marketing in one of those books "/ Dove, a soap company, took about 8 women and let them use their product for free for about 2 weeks to see what happened and got them to report back. Danone, a yoghurt company surveyed a group of women with digestive discomfort and got them to report back "/

It's hardly something you need proof for, especially when it is a common trait in businesses "/ They don't see the point in asking hundreds or thoasands of people, they just ask a small group.
As stated in my first reply, just ask around your college/school/workplace and do a sort of mental survey. Unless Apple seem to like distributing faulty good to certain areas, and excellent goods to other, then the results are pretty accurate.
The proof would be that a report was made by the company in which they made it known that individuals were asked to try a product. "/ Which is what I'm asking for.

An MP3 player has been around for years, people went to them if they wanted to. They weren't talked about much "/ You simply plug in, and play. Creative brought out the Zen, which was just a bit bigger than a Mini, which came just before Apple made drive-based MP3 players known. Creative never seized it, because their mistake was thinking that people would slowly convert. Apple forcefully made itself known by advertising in most tech shops and intrigued audiences about it.

Apple, as you said, intercepted and made it known to people who didn't give one bit of notice to this. Clever, really.
Exactly. So in the end, it's just a simply argument of who had the best advertising plan. As far as being forceful about it goes, well, you can't force the willing. ;) People wanted an good alternative to CD players and Apple met their needs, just the same as when Sony met the needs of consumers when they introduced portable CD players to replace portable cassette players.

That is irrelevant to the argument. Apple still are being anti-competitive with their iTunes so that if you have anything owned/created by Apple, you are pretty well ok. If you have anything else, you're stuffed. Apple have Safari, so they have nothing to moan about with IE. Even though IE is available for Mac users.

The case was resolved anyway, so Apple are just being petty really "/
The argument is relative, actually. Microsoft faced legal issues with IE because of the large dominance in computers, which previously didn't allow the uninstallation of Internet Explorer because Microsoft said it would 'cause the operating system to not work properly'. Because Windows already included a browser (IE), other browser makers were at a disadvantage because Internet Explorer would dominate their existance by simply already being included. And because the Windows platform was very widely used, it pretty much meant that any other popular browser would quickly lose popularity because the vast majority of users would already be using Internet Explorer by default.

So how comes you said Macs don't have an alterative "/ You made it sound as if Macs had Microsoft Works which you can make more advanced by getting MS Office.
I never said they didn't have an alternative. "/ I actually made it known to you that an alternative has always been there in Macs when you thought Apple just trashed AppleWorks altogether.

Considering I read about it and what I discussed was pretty much proved correct. It advanced into catagories I haven't read about nor felt the need to discuss.
In other words, you repeated what someone said, but couldn't back up your arguments with facts. Isn't that called gossip?

You can still be a "non-expert" and still know what you are discussing "/ Unless you feel you can self-proclaim it or have secretly taken a degree and become a master. So yeah, you can still learn and pretty much no everything without being an expert, unless it is self-proclaimed or there is proof you are an expert.
Anyone can read a few paragraphs on a subject and instantly become a non-expert in any given field of knowledge. But what I was pointing out in my argument was that it was incorrect of you to flaw my argument when the flaw lied in your response because I explicitly stated the person arguing with you was a layman, which you ignored and in turn faulted me. "/

That was a conclusional example to pretty much briefly describe one flaw, rather than a string of flaws which would conquer the idea of it being brief. The O/S is kinda what makes them different, you can edit or create your own, customised applications in a business and hardwire it into the system.
Seeing as these arguments are well over 3 pages long, the 'being brief' boat pretty much sailed a long time ago. :P Applications hardwired into a system? That's firmware. You can't really install firmware on a computer without first altering its motherboard design

But people prefer choice and customisation, rather than "this product being the only one you can get, you'll have to wait till they make something like that."
Which is why Apple is itself a choice. A person can choose not to customize. It could be whether they lack the knowledge of doing so or they just don't want to. Matter of fact is, not many people actually customize their systems after they've bought them to begin with. They may choose to buy a pre-built system customized to their likeness, but only because they're not going to replace anything from it until its time to replace it. Apple also allows system customization upon purchase or to buy a system with default hardware and capabilities, so choice and customization is also valid for Apple computers.

Ah but it isn't viewable to begin with... Windows hide them when you first look into the folder, you can ask to keep them hidden or have a look anyway at your own discression. If you foul up, it's your fault for going against what the system says when you first look at that folder. At least, that's what Window XP systems say "/
Not exactly. Directly, it can't be viewed initially. That is to say, a person cannot successfully go to the Windows folder without being prompted to unhide system files. However, that isn't the only way to get to a Windows folder. Take uploading pictures, for example. When you upload an image to a website, you are asked to look for your picture through a 'Browse.." button. Even if it's your first time going to the Windows folder via a 'Browse..' button, you will not be prompted to unhide system files. Instead they will be dispalyed to edit at your heart's content. Now, while that situation may seem to be far too complicated to be accomplished by an amateur user, it happens all the time because the user is unaware of the severity of their actions.

Considering there isn't restrictions on a PC like being trapped in a well, the example is a bit shakey. You deserved falling down the well for playing around it, but you still deserved to be saved.

With a PC, you should read the precautions and if you muck up, you can simply call Windows OR input the Windows Installation CD OR read the Windows Manual to see how you can restore it OR Go on another PC and look at the FAQ's on the Microsoft Website.

When you're down a well, you don't get these resources, other than some dirt.
The restrictions would be being infected by spyware and having your information read by some anonymous entity over the Internet. You said someone who doesn't follow instruction deserves to be have a spyware-ridden box, which I disagree with. No one deserves to have their information compromised because of flaws in an operating system the user has cannot understand. As far as a Windows Manual goes, the only one I've ever gotten was a 1-page introduction sheet for Windows XP. oO

But each system has a different way of handling the resources it has? If an XP PC has 1GB of RAM and the OS X has the same, the OS X will obviously work faster, because it is their nature to be quite fast machines, as far as I am aware at least "/ Again, to a user, this varies how they use it, produce from it anything and out-of-box experience. Unless they can get different specs that make them roughly the same, but that would be difficult and possibly impossible,
That's where xvsxp.com comes to play. They judge the operating system on how it uses its resources by testing how they perform. If an operating system does not manage its resources wisely, it makes the user experience less preferable because the user cannot fully take advantage of what the OS has to offer. Take Vista for example. It's a huge resource hog which will require the consumer to either upgrade their computer or buy a new computer altogether in order to run it. All for a new theme. Now while a nice looking GUI is great, it's not worth forking over hundreds of dollars just to have the capability of running it. OS X can do this and at the same time not use as many resources so the user can have both a nice GUI and be productive.

I thought XP machines can't handle more than 4GB? Or am I thinking of laptops? Either way, when the new machines are out with Vista pre-installed, I imagine inside each PC would be more than 4 slots. The way it has been told in the news and in newspapers kinda hints this.
4GB was the maximum because at the time when XP requirements were being made, memory came in a maximum size of 1GB per stick. Today, it can be bought at 2GB per stick so it doubled the supported memory. Motherboards come with a maximum of 4 memory slots, and that's talking about motherboards that can be customized to a user's likeness. My computer has 2 removable memory bays that support 8GB each, and 16GB in total.

Seems like it would, if there are big, bold lines seperating each contact. This means that the contact list wile just be longer. Again, pressing one button and finding someone with that initial is just a bit faster. Especially when, looking at the iPhone in action, you may scroll past by accident.
Since scrolling speed is user-controlled, you'd still have the person as the variable and how quickly they are able to find a contact in either scenario.

My original argument was that Apple are just trying to make themselves into a huge conglomerate "/ or a company that is trying to be incharge of everything. I think conglomerate maybe the wrong word.
Apple falls waay short of ever becoming a conglomerate, and even if they did, they'd be only making wasteful products which pretty much goes against the Apple mantra. ;p

When I meant Sony, I was talking about the MP3 Players they have their name on. I said Apple were said, which doesn't mean Apple said it themselves, but loads of people seem to think they are.
So if Apple didn't say it, why place the claim on them? oO

In arguments, you may aswell go through all the trivial matters to pick out all the weak spots
Trvial matters aren't weak spots because they're pointless to argue about, a.k.a time-waster.

As true as this is, people don't want to pay to use the internet (well, in the country at least) on their phones. That is, if the iPhone is coming to O2, Tescos, 3 and so on. You might have to use some other company which might not have the great features like O2 Pay and Go, which sometimes does free texts if you're an old, loyal customer. It's about as easy just going to a computer, where you can save the image or line of text with a few mere clicks of a mouse. Again, it depends if the iPhone version of Safari allows you to save images.
People already pay lots of money to use a watered-down version of the Internet on their phone and they're not bothered by it. Point being, if a consumer wants something they'll find a way to get it.

Not entirely different, no. You can hear that it doesn't so a certain thing and think "Oh, well, I don't want it then." Degrading is about as good as praising, even though praising is probably harder to do "/
No, that's not what I'm talking about... I'm saying that you're speaking negative about a product that you yourself don't use personally and faulting it even though said fault has never been presented to you other than by a third party.

You get the same with PCs, where someone can easily come along and fix it. You have to be insane to judge your information on one individual. You pick out the possibilities and if there are more obvious possibilities in one thing, you go with that. Although, sometimes this isn;t the case, and you have to imploy logic.
It's very different actually. Since Macs aren't as widespread as Windows PCs, consumers looking to purchase a Mac will look at reviews and issues with the product. Since the source I mentioned has basically all false information, the consumer would in turn acquire the false information and be less inclined to buying a Mac. And since Windows PCs are more widely available, it isn't very difficult to access one from practically anywhere and test the product yourself.

Lol that's quite a funny phrase.
Yep, and it's also true. It's not exactly easy explaining how a Mac works to people who have used Windows all their lives, so it's difficult trying to lead someone to new information if they have a one-track mind.

If you do Photography... Surely you would do it on a proper camera, preferrably D-SLR? Although you can get good camera phone photos, they're hardly as good quality or big enough even, to edit at home on a PC "/ And the editting programs are a good idea only for fun snaps or snaps that you want to quickly edit and show people as soon as possible, rather than big professional photos. Even so, it is better to take a photo as best it can be, without the need of editting it (I do photgraphy at college)
Many phones do come with photo editing software designed for the phone itself. It's horrible from a professional standpoint, but sufficient for someone just wanting to add contrast and such. Oh, and currently using a Canon EOS 300D, EF 50mm f1.8, EF-S 18-55mm f3.5-5.6, EF 24-85mm f3.5-4.5, and some softboxes. :) It's just a hobby, but it's freakin expensive so I'm holding back a little. Editing is mainly for color corrections or perfecting less than ideal exposures. :P

There is a huge possibility you can backtrack the ideas and reveal that the original concept was infact stolen from something, as you said, if it was patent.
Did they even have copyright back then? I doubt you could know if your idea was roughly the same or even tell if someone stole the idea and developed on it...
According to Wiki, patents have existed since 1474 in Italy.

Which is where this idea that Apple probably copied the idea from kindles. But as you said, the tech behind them could be very different and are just similar in the way they act.
Yes, it's not much what they do but how they get it done. Like a pencil compared to a pen. Different technologies but same purpose- writing. Or stabbing.

So we were arguing over the same thing and were really just agreeing?
Yeah, that seems to be happening a lot. oO (Whoops, happened again.)

Surely it is? Considering they've created it and have talked about it...
They don't list the full specs of the phone as they do with their other products. It's just a brief overview of technologies the phone has.

I was talking about that they did use them to zoom in, but using the fingers is not as accurate as it can be. A single finger input could be more accurate.
A single finger input would be more precise, not accurate.

I think I got confused with this. The Prada phone was being advertised along side the iPhone and Synpatics phone on that website I shown, which never did specify properly what it did, so I assumed it was the same as the two and had multi-touch.
The Prada phone was mostly being noted because of the uncanny similarities between it and the iPhone, not the technologies, which are differently implemented and constructed.

I know, amazing how much it has on it really "/ I wouldn't say a Cyber-Shot phone needs all them, considering the other Sony Ericsson phone which is the W200i has the same programs, just lacks Cyber-Shot. The Photo Editting on the phone is just one application afterall, and it has more of a purpose editting bad images, which phones without cyber-shot do need more than the k800i to make them look a bit better. Considering Apple has alot of programs, one which I hpe it has, which is photo editting, I kinda would of that it would have the ability to edit the photos, and the mistake you made about resizing also backed this idea. Not your fault really, shouldn't guess on someones mistakes :)
Aperture is Apple's pro photo editing software (which is what I use), but I don't think phones are able to run that let alone store it. Of course, there could be a port of that for the phone, but I doubt it'll be free, or useful for that matter since the iphones camera isn't really worth spending money for buying photo editing software to use with it. A free one would be nice. Guess we'll see in the following months.

There is some similarity still in there, although the Sony phones have it so it is any application/function, rather than different modes.
Similarity would be its purpose, but the tech is different. :)

Smart Playlists sound strange really "/ It kinda sound similary to what any MP3 player does and picks out what the rating is on the song (by you) and the genre. You can create playlists with other phones on the phone too, it would be a good idea if this came with the iPhone too, considering the iPod is one of the major functions "/
They're pretty neat if you don't want to manually pick a song, but don't want shuffling songs either. Kind of a hybrid-type playlist style. But basic playlists will be supported on the iPhone for sure. If you see iphone pictures, you'll see on the bottom of the iPod screen that there is a playlists option you can choose. Everything else will be generated when connecting the iPhone to your computer, I assume.

Still a bummer if you want to find someone you don't regularly call but need to. Quick-Dial is coming into mind now...
People will use the phone differently, there's no doubt. So I have say it's pretty pointless arguing if people will find this annoying or convenient. Maybe neither, and it'll just be a regular contacts list. oO

Suppose so, but with this Synaptics phone, you could just read the street name and wait till you get to your location to find out where you are. Wanting to know what an area looks like before hand is pretty strange really, only on the rare occasion you'll need it "/

And yes, I do know that the satellite option is, just an option. It is strange to think people will need it "/ Other than when you want to look at bird eye views of a building. I suppose you could investigate further by going on the wireless internet to get a view of the building from infront.
I don't personally use GPS and relly more on Google Maps when I need directions for something. GPS would've been great on the iPhone, especially because of Google Maps, so it's shame it won't be there initially. Satallite images are pretty clear here in the US, so they're really useful. For example, if someone couldn't recall which street was which on a basic graphical map but could tell where a location is at by its looking surrounding environment, it will be convenient for those people.

Most phones have some sort of warranty on, so it is very likely it will have one too. Just a bit of a bummer if you snap it and need to send it away and have no phone for a while. Again, it depends what you do with the iPod Video and the bag was what I voted as the safest place
Well, it isn't just the carrier's warranty on the iPhone. All products have a 1 year warranty that covers pretty much anything. Of course, after the year is over, you're *****ed if you need a repacement- which is where the carrier's warranty would take over.

The iPod Mini was in a thicker case and was thicker itself. It also felt nicer to hold, rather than the Nano which is a bit smaller and smooth and the video too wide.
Thats just the progression of things. As technology in them advanced, they get smaller and more compact. While some people find this best, others dislike it. Like comparing a Motorola DynaTAC 8000X to a RAZR. One felt more sturdier, but the tech isnt exactly impressive on the former. Not today anyway. ;p

At the end of the day, it isn't really a bit thing, unless you love your possession so much you want to blog about it. I suppose one would of blogged about it, but he didn't and the rest aren't exactly hardcose bloggers :P Trust me on that one.
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?hl=en <- search other's blogs. ;)

How is something someone else has said got to do with me, and I know average knowledge about Technology, it depends what it is about. While you probably know a few steps down from expert (I probably offended you, I was trying not to praise you too much, I am mean like that). And it is obvious really, if it stops or the player starts playing really badly, you'll know when to get an update, unless otherwise, you leave it till it does.
But I like my ego being inflated.. :(
It's not really obvious to most people. If someone stops working, they'll call for help. The first reaction of someone whos product stops working is to contact customer support, so they can guide the customer to the appropriate direction depending on the issue with their product. While an update could've avoided that situation, they'll probably have to re-install everything and re-transfer all their information, which really isn't as fun as it sounds..

Considering a OS is an entirely different bucket of fish, of course you'll need an update. An OS has information travelling in and out of it far more than an MP3 player would ever dream to have. There are also lots more ways to harm a computer, than an MP3 player. Like as you said, deleting the files in System32.
lol Well, actually..
The Zune already offers wireless connectivity. Music is transfered by between any Zune user wirelessly. Of course, just as its easy to transfer music, other files can be transfers just as easily and pose a potential danger to the user if that file were to be malicious. Not much longer before we have WiFi-toting iPods and Zens and have to face these same dangers.

Eeek, hope everything is ok afterwards?
thanks :) It was fine.

Has it? I've noticed something about your replies they each have gaps inbetween paragraphs, while before I had to make them myself when quoting.
Strangeeeeeeeee.

I got rid of some pointless arguments that would otherwise just take up space, so the replies should be (should be...) shorter now. ;D

O.0 ooooook.... the posts are getting a little to long for comfort, especaly in respect to the fact 90% of there content is irrelivant to the central debate, and contains at least 6 sub arguments over each point.

The debate is "iPhone - Good idea?"

Its a very loose and poorly defined debate topic, possible directions include:
Will the branding work?
For: Apple have long ago proven if they created an Iturd, most the market is stupid enough to but it
Against: there viloateing trademarks, and will probably have to rename it anyway

Is the product going to break even
For: People will buy anything with an I infront of it, so alot of people will want em.
Against: At that price, most people wont be able to aford them, and those who can will most likly be smart enough to notice, its inferior to readly avaible products and at a much higher price, and they may as well just spend the money on somthing decent, like a PS3

The technolgy will revolutionis mobile phones
For: Multi point Touch screen interface, will change how people who have the phone use it.
Against: theres a reason touch screen interfaces have previolsy been avoided. Plus to be fair, even thats not new, although nothing on the market has it yet, products will still be on the market with it, before the iphone appears.
The rest of the technolgy already exists and is far exceeded by smart phones already on the market.

End of.
Your 'for' statements seem more like backhanded compliments. o_O
And the posts may be a little long, but that's not really an issue. Maybe if correct (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2897417&postcount=77) information (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2899191&postcount=81) was posted (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2905153&postcount=88), arguments would be much more compact because no correcting (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2910220&postcount=94) would be needed. =/

because the Ps3 is a fully next gen console, which will be entertaing gamers for years to come judging from sonys track record for gameing consoles, and wiis are little more than a gimic, which will loose popularity pretty fast, seeing as the gimic is really just a more expencive yet inferior technolgy to what you get with an eye toy "/
Ps3 is gimmick-free! Watered-down motion sensing in the SIXAXIS has always been a major feature in the PS3 from the beginning. Bah! Who needs force feedback? And Blu Ray is the best game format ever, no matter what those pesky developers say (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/01/ps3_oblivion_seeing_double_to.php)! :)

[Mentor]

I got rid of some pointless arguments that would otherwise just take up space, so the replies should be (should be...) shorter now. ;D

Your 'for' statements seem more like backhanded compliments. o_O
And the posts may be a little long, but that's not really an issue. Maybe if correct (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2897417&postcount=77) information (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2899191&postcount=81) was posted (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2905153&postcount=88), arguments would be much more compact because no correcting (http://habboxforum.com/showpost.php?p=2910220&postcount=94) would be needed. =/

Its not really a problem of the information. The problems more with the fact you don't provide any then pretend you do. But then again, my life isnt so sad and boring that i can actually be bothered to read threw the topic and provide any more examples than the two posts i just quoted in this response...


Ps3 is gimmick-free! Watered-down motion sensing in the SIXAXIS has always been a major feature in the PS3 from the beginning.
o.0 it has. The wii argument is that the wii uses significantly superior mention sensing technology, not that the ps3 copyed it.. well the argument from the non-fanboys at least "/

Bah! Who needs force feedback?
Exsactly, Or did the fact the ps3 still has an actual controler and doent use motion senceing as its primary control mechnisms... and that dispute that the ps3 controller still won the EMMY for best controller "/


And Blu Ray is the best game format ever, no matter what those pesky developers say (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/01/ps3_oblivion_seeing_double_to.php)! :)
1) your argueing for the wii, not a hddvd player. The wii optical disk holds little more than a standard DVD. It cant even enter the same leaes as hddvd or blu-ray
2) the 12 cm wii optical drivers, run at about dvd*6 (7.93MB/sec). The ps3 has blu-ray*2 which runs at around (9 MB/s ) . Do the math.
3)Blu-ray can be used at *8 if you wana pay the money, and i like it alot more than i do a ps3, more as a storage medium, than anything else.
4)The developers of a single title, dont really hold much weight, when most game deveropers are backing blu-ray in the format war.
5) Wii specs are pretty much inferior in every possible aspect to ps3, which is a proper 7th gen console, arguments from them are doommed to fail. Although i suggest takeing your own advice and getting the right info.

6) This is completely irrelevant to the crapness of the iphone. You offered nill information, ether for nore against the claim.

Iphone offers nothing that wont already be on the market(cheeper) when it comes out: True (that includes the name iphone, even that was nicked)

[-Soph-]

I actually like it..
And yeah, I think its a good idea imo.

[HUGECOOL]

Its not really a problem of the information. The problems more with the fact you don't provide any then pretend you do. But then again, my life isnt so sad and boring that i can actually be bothered to read threw the topic and provide any more examples than the two posts i just quoted in this response...
Oh, yeah, lol. My life's a real drag because I clicked on a few extra links. xD I might go on anti-depressants due to all the references I'll have to make. Seriously, what a moronic comment. And I provide sources when I provide a claim or stat of some sort. And if I don't, and it wasn't seen necessary by whoever responded, then I'll simply leave it as is.

o.0 it has. The wii argument is that the wii uses significantly superior mention sensing technology, not that the ps3 copyed it.. well the argument from the non-fanboys at least "/
No, the argument is that motion sensing on the PS3 was added as a knee-jerk reaction from Sony due to all the attention Nintendo was getting from their motion sensing controller. "/

http://digg.com/gaming_news/CONFIRMED:_PS3_motion_sensing_technology_was_tacke d_on_at_the_last_minute_

"Eurogamer: When did you first learn about this controller?
Dylan Jobe: We've really known officially for about a week and a half, and we did the final tuning just a couple of days ago" [A week and a half before the PS3 demo, lol]

Exsactly, Or did the fact the ps3 still has an actual controler and doent use motion senceing as its primary control mechnisms... and that dispute that the ps3 controller still won the EMMY for best controller "/
lol no. Sony won an EMMY for its Dual-Shock controller, y'know, the one with rumble? ;)

http://www.destructoid.com/sony-did-not-win-an-award-for-sixaxis-29164.phtml

And in short, many titles which once used force-feedback on the PS2 will lack the functionality on the PS3. Also titles which use force-feedback on the Xbox 360 that will be ported to the PS3 will also lack this intuitive functionality. Why you think the PS3's lacking of a feature (that is included on the Wii) is a good thing is beyond me. Even though the PS3 is supposed to offer what the Wii does + more. For $600, removing old tech from a predeceasing console doesn't exactly give Sony brownie points either. "/

1) your argueing for the wii, not a hddvd player. The wii optical disk holds little more than a standard DVD. It cant even enter the same leaes as hddvd or blu-ray [A new format for the system was seen as pointless because games won't actually use all that space, so it'll just be asking developers to produce high-priced crap, as they are on the PS3 currently. Xbox 360 uses DVD-9, and it's still able to produce beautiful graphics without the need for a new storage medium. The HD-DVD add on is an option for the consumer if they decide to use their gaming console as a high-definition media player and the format isn't forced by the company as it is with Sony and it's PS3. "/]
2) the 12 cm wii optical drivers, run at about dvd*6 (7.93MB/sec). The ps3 has blu-ray*2 which runs at around (9 MB/s ) . Do the math. [Wii games are much smaller in terms of data than PS3 games, so load times are much quicker. oO]
3)Blu-ray can be used at *8 if you wana pay the money, and i like it alot more than i do a ps3, more as a storage medium, than anything else. [For regular storage, it's no doubt a great medium. The again, if it breaks then all your information is basically destroyed. "/]
4)The developers of a single title, dont really hold much weight, when most game deveropers are backing blu-ray in the format war. [That's actually a major release, so it's significant to know how it'll perform. And most developers aren't backing up Blu Ray on option. "/ If they want to develop games for the PS3, they're pretty much forced to do so, which drives development costs higher. "/]
5) Wii specs are pretty much inferior in every possible aspect to ps3, which is a proper 7th gen console, arguments from them are doommed to fail. Although i suggest takeing your own advice and getting the right info. [Wii's console specs areinferior, I never argued that they weren't, lol. But once again, saying that the PS3 is a 'proper 7th gen console' because it has the best specs is like saying you made a great painting because you used the best set of paints. "/]
6) This is completely irrelevant to the crapness of the iphone. You offered nill information, ether for nore against the claim.[Actually, if you see above my responses to you, you'll notice there's a rather large portion of my post dedicated to the argument. oO]

Iphone offers nothing that wont already be on the market(cheeper) when it comes out: True (that includes the name iphone, even that was nicked)Multi-touch

[Mentor]

Oh, yeah, lol. My life's a real drag because I clicked on a few extra links. xD I might go on anti-depressants due to all the references I'll have to make. Seriously, what a moronic comment. And I provide sources when I provide a claim or stat of some sort. And if I don't, and it wasn't seen necessary by whoever responded, then I'll simply leave it as is.Your probably the first case of selective reading ive ever come accross, ill give you that.


No, the argument is that motion sensing on the PS3 was added as a knee-jerk reaction from Sony due to all the attention Nintendo was getting from their motion sensing controller. "/

http://digg.com/gaming_news/CONFIRMED:_PS3_motion_sensing_technology_was_tacke d_on_at_the_last_minute_


"Eurogamer: When did you first learn about this controller?
Dylan Jobe: We've really known officially for about a week and a half, and we did the final tuning just a couple of days ago" [A week and a half before the PS3 demo, lol]

Dylan Jobe is a produce for games, he doesnt work for sony, nore have anything to do with the design of the ps3, nore its controllers. Your just useing the knolage from authority fallisy here.


lol no. Sony won an EMMY for its Dual-Shock controller, y'know, the one with rumble? ;)

http://www.destructoid.com/sony-did-not-win-an-award-for-sixaxis-29164.phtml

And in short, many titles which once used force-feedback on the PS2 will lack the functionality on the PS3. Also titles which use force-feedback on the Xbox 360 that will be ported to the PS3 will also lack this intuitive functionality. Why you think the PS3's lacking of a feature (that is included on the Wii) is a good thing is beyond me. Even though the PS3 is supposed to offer what the Wii does + more. For $600, removing old tech from a predeceasing console doesn't exactly give Sony brownie points either. "/
1) it appears your right on the award, i read the information prior to the press release.
2) I havent managed to figure out, whether or not youve noticed the obvious problems duel shock, and motion senceing would cause if they were in the same controler... Controler vibrates, what do you think happens to the motion senceing?


A new format for the system was seen as pointless because games won't actually use all that space, so it'll just be asking developers to produce high-priced crap, as they are on the PS3 currently. Xbox 360 uses DVD-9, and it's still able to produce beautiful graphics without the need for a new storage medium. The HD-DVD add on is an option for the consumer if they decide to use their gaming console as a high-definition media player and the format isn't forced by the company as it is with Sony and it's PS3. "/

Wii games are simplistitic and wouldnt use that much space, no, ps2 games fully use dvds and most the developers claim they will be easly able to put a full blu-ray disk in to use. The more space the better.
Plus your argueing from the wii, not a xbox, which is much more like a controler, plus microsoft wont be to botherd who wins the format war, there incodeing methods are in both.


[Wii games are much smaller in terms of data than PS3 games, so load times are much quicker. oO
Whats that got to do with anything? you said blu-ray was slower, i just proved its faster. Plus they wont load quicker, they will still load slower, theres just less to load.


For regular storage, it's no doubt a great medium. The again, if it breaks then all your information is basically destroyed. "/[quote]
In the same way as a: harddrive, dvd, flashdisk, tape drive, hd-dvd,video tape, casset, CD, Record... peace of paper.... engraved stone... Well, put simply EVERY storage mechanism thats ever existed =.= You destroy what the information is stored on, the information also gets destroyed? Whats your point?
[quote]That's actually a major release, so it's significant to know how it'll perform. And most developers aren't backing up Blu Ray on option. "/ If they want to develop games for the PS3, they're pretty much forced to do so, which drives development costs higher. "/
Actualy blu-ray disk are cheaper to produces. The higher costs are just an innital out lay, since blu-rays manufacture process is differnt, so they would need to update most there equipment, while hd-dvd uses very simlar proccesses to current dvds so less changes would be needed.
Plus, if developers werent forced to do anything, we'd still be useing megadrive style catriges as there cheaper... i mean, why in the wolrd would a game ever take more than a few kb of space....


Wii's console specs areinferior, I never argued that they weren't, lol. But once again, saying that the PS3 is a 'proper 7th gen console' because it has the best specs is like saying you made a great painting because you used the best set of paints. "/
o.0 not really, thats a pretty crap ananolgy and youve misused it pretty badly, Thats the analogy for the better console argument. Its a yth geniration console, becuse its in the 7th geniration of consoles, and uses the assoaited technolgys with them. The Wii doesnt use most of the 7th gen technolgys, hence aint 7th gen. If nokia made a 5210 now, they aint gona call it a 3g (3rd geniration)phone are they...



Actually, if you see above my responses to you, you'll notice there's a rather large portion of my post dedicated to the argument. oO
Ok, your actualy right again, i disregarded the quotation as the top as a quotation, insted of part of your actual responce.















Multi-touch
No, it would if they releaced it now, but its actualy far off enough that smart phones with similar technolgy will enter the market before its own releace date "/

[HUGECOOL]

Your probably the first case of selective reading ive ever come accross, ill give you that.
I responded to both your concerns, what's selective about it? I flipped my responses around and responded first to your second comment. o_O

Dylan Jobe is a produce for games, he doesnt work for sony, nore have anything to do with the design of the ps3, nore its controllers. Your just useing the knolage from authority fallisy here.
That's right, he's a game producer. So why is he important, right? Well, he's the producer for the first PS3 game with motion technology- Warhawk. The development team were told about motion sensing *2 weeks* before the Sony keynote at E3, and had days before the event to tweak the controls a little. (Note: At the time of the keynote, a whole year after Sony first introduced the PS3, Warhawk was the only game that offered motion sensing.) So if motion sensing was an original plan of Sony's, why would they choose to release critical information about controller input just weeks before a major event? It doesn't make sense if it actually were a main feature.

1) it appears your right on the award, i read the information prior to the press release.
2) I havent managed to figure out, whether or not youve noticed the obvious problems duel shock, and motion senceing would cause if they were in the same controler... Controler vibrates, what do you think happens to the motion senceing?
That would be Sony's spin on the issue. The real issue was that Immersion, a company specializing in haptic technologies, sued Sony for using their force feedback on the Dual-Shock without licensing it. Sony ended up losing, paying ~$90M and almost being forced to stop production of PS2 consoles and controllers. Microsoft was sued as well, but they settled out of court with Immersion.

Oh, and Pelican, a third-party accesory brand for all platforms, had already released a controller that featured both force-feedback *and* motion sensing back in *1999*. So here's a video a Playstation magazine made to show it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOBtMMWteA


Wii games are simplistitic and wouldnt use that much space, no, ps2 games fully use dvds and most the developers claim they will be easly able to put a full blu-ray disk in to use. The more space the better.
Plus your argueing from the wii, not a xbox, which is much more like a controler, plus microsoft wont be to botherd who wins the format war, there incodeing methods are in both.
When have developers claimed full use of Blu Rays was happening? oO The only time I recall developers speaking about the storage space is when they mentioned that they *wouldn't* use the full disc, unless you can site otherwise. And I'm arguing

Whats that got to do with anything? you said blu-ray was slower, i just proved its faster. Plus they wont load quicker, they will still load slower, theres just less to load.Not really, since DVDs have a variable speed depending on where its loading (inner or outter edge) while Blu-Ray will load at a constant rate. oO As an example, DVD x12 has a rate of ~9MB/s at minimum (inner edge), which is the roughly the same, or better, than a BD x2.

In the same way as a: harddrive, dvd, flashdisk, tape drive, hd-dvd,video tape, casset, CD, Record... peace of paper.... engraved stone... Well, put simply EVERY storage mechanism thats ever existed =.= You destroy what the information is stored on, the information also gets destroyed? Whats your point?
Fault tolerance. And while Blu-Ray does offer many protections against everyday wear and tear, it's still just a disc. Sure, a hard drive is just a disc as well, but recovering data from the latter is already available while recovering data from a burned/shattered BD is pretty much impossible.

Actualy blu-ray disk are cheaper to produces. The higher costs are just an innital out lay, since blu-rays manufacture process is differnt, so they would need to update most there equipment, while hd-dvd uses very simlar proccesses to current dvds so less changes would be needed.
Plus, if developers werent forced to do anything, we'd still be useing megadrive style catriges as there cheaper... i mean, why in the wolrd would a game ever take more than a few kb of space....
I meant developers would have to unconditionally support the Blu-Ray format regardless of performance. Since the PS3's Blu-Ray player is internal and not external, the format is basically being used to lure support from the gaming market even when it isn't really needed.

o.0 not really, thats a pretty crap ananolgy and youve misused it pretty badly, Thats the analogy for the better console argument. Its a yth geniration console, becuse its in the 7th geniration of consoles, and uses the assoaited technolgys with them. The Wii doesnt use most of the 7th gen technolgys, hence aint 7th gen. If nokia made a 5210 now, they aint gona call it a 3g (3rd geniration)phone are they...
So, with that logic, Xbox 360 isn't a next-gen console because it doesn't have motion sensing or offer the ability to read a high-definition format. oO The next generation of anything is just an upgrade to anything currently avialable in whatever its predeceding. The analogy I wrote was basically saying; You don't have a great product just because you used the best materials. Technological superiority doesn't mean your product will have ensured success. You have to have content that'll sell the product. Take last gen for example, the Gamecube was superior in specs, but the PS2 ended up winning the console battles. It was because of the games. Playstation 2's game library offered a very wide variety of games that attracted a much bigger audience. The PS3 so far has very lackluster games, and development costs don't help either which just drives the indie game market away from that console = less games. The Wii offers a much cheaper solution for developing games which has successfully driven more developers to make games for it. Point being, in game consoles, it doesn't matter what specs you boast if you don't have good games. Many consoles have flopped because of this.

No, it would if they releaced it now, but its actualy far off enough that smart phones with similar technolgy will enter the market before its own releace date "/
Since the technology behind multi-touch is already patented, I don't really see that happening any time soon. There may be a similar solution but not the same one.

[dog-egg]

:o - that kinda went off topic didn't it? well, i've seen the iphone in action and it looks great in my opinion - i use macs all the time and i appreciate apple's superior build quality and stability of OSX - yip they're expensive, but i'd rather pay that than have to put up with some brick made by a pc company. the iphone will be supercompatible with my laptop so the extra price doesn't bother me at all, as it'll knock the pants off any other so-called smart phone :D

[GommeInc]

:o - that kinda went off topic didn't it? well, i've seen the iphone in action and it looks great in my opinion - i use macs all the time and i appreciate apple's superior build quality and stability of OSX - yip they're expensive, but i'd rather pay that than have to put up with some brick made by a pc company. the iphone will be supercompatible with my laptop so the extra price doesn't bother me at all, as it'll knock the pants off any other so-called smart phone :D
Brick? Macs are bigger, looking at them in PC World... And Vista has no known Virus' that are serious, as of yet, so your argument is flawed completely. What has your laptop got to do with it knocking the pants off any other smart phone? Even though the iPhone isn't a smart phone, it's kinda useless really, it hasn't been said to offer anything other than a multi-touch screen, which will be on the market before it.

[dog-egg]

Brick? Macs are bigger, looking at them in PC World... And Vista has no known Virus' that are serious, as of yet, so your argument is flawed completely. What has your laptop got to do with it knocking the pants off any other smart phone? Even though the iPhone isn't a smart phone, it's kinda useless really, it hasn't been said to offer anything other than a multi-touch screen, which will be on the market before it.

ok lol - where shall we start? Macs are bigger eh? do you mean that the displays are thicker, cos if you do i think u'll find that they contain the actual computer too and don't need a crummy tower system meaning they take up less space, and the displays are premium quality. if you mean the laptops are bigger then maybe, but only cos they've got huge displays on some models, and there's no way you could mean thickness cos they've gotta be the slimmest on the market, and with built in top notch quality webcams too!

Vista has no known serious virus' yet? for one thing, OSX has NO virus' - yes - NONE! and macs can run Vista anyway so what's your point here? plus, at what point did i mention Vista in there? i just said i liked the stability of OSX...

if i had the choice of two smartphones, and one was more compatible with my laptop in terms of synching with schedules, emails etc then surely i'd choose that one, and seeing as i use a mac then i'd be an idiot NOT to choose an iphone... i don't think u've seen the demonstration of it have you? the viewing of full webpages, not just what your average phone tries to make you think is the internet, the incredibly smooth manipulation of graphics, the fact it actually runs OSX not a chopped down mobile version etc etc

btw - the sentence i highlighted doesn't make sense - did you mean to write 'even though the iphone IS a smartphone'
and 'kinda useless really'??? - show me a phone that does more ;P
go on lol - show me!
and as for multitouch screens coming out before the iphone does, perhaps they will but will they be better?

iphone will rock (at least in my eyes) - and arguing is fun isn't it? :)

[GommeInc]

ok lol - where shall we start? Macs are bigger eh? do you mean that the displays are thicker, cos if you do i think u'll find that they contain the actual computer too and don't need a crummy tower system meaning they take up less space, and the displays are premium quality. if you mean the laptops are bigger then maybe, but only cos they've got huge displays on some models, and there's no way you could mean thickness cos they've gotta be the slimmest on the market, and with built in top notch quality webcams too!
The tower version of the Mac is rediculously huge. They're like 2 times bigger than a computers tower. When you get a Mac with the computer in the monitor, it just makes it less convenient when you want to upgrade your Mac. Yes, you probably don't need to, but anything needs updating once ina while, especially when there are people out there that love to customize their systems. Mac Books are huge in comparison to loads of laptops I've seen. My Sony Vaio is tiny and works pretty fast "/


Vista has no known serious virus' yet? for one thing, OSX has NO virus' - yes - NONE! and macs can run Vista anyway so what's your point here? plus, at what point did i mention Vista in there? i just said i liked the stability of OSX...
That yet could turn into a certain "no virus at all." I would hardly say Macs are superior. Go to any University in the UK and they'll make up so many jokes about OSX. My favourite at the moment is:

"The mouse on a Mac and PC are like a mans balls. The PC has 2 while a Mac has one."

Macs are a joke, just like you can imply in their adverts, they joke around, because that's what they are.


if i had the choice of two smartphones, and one was more compatible with my laptop in terms of synching with schedules, emails etc then surely i'd choose that one, and seeing as i use a mac then i'd be an idiot NOT to choose an iphone... i don't think u've seen the demonstration of it have you? the viewing of full webpages, not just what your average phone tries to make you think is the internet, the incredibly smooth manipulation of graphics, the fact it actually runs OSX not a chopped down mobile version etc etc
I've seen the demonstration of the iPhone. The CEO talked so much crap I got bored. As I've talked about, full web browsing is pointless if you cannot save parts of the pages to the phone itself. You might aswell do it at home on your PC/Mac. I also am confused with what you mean by "what makes you think is the internet." It connects to the internet, therefore uses the internet. What you said made no sense.

I don't see what Apple mean by running OS X. Looking at the phone, it is just like any other phone? What has it got from OS X on it?


btw - the sentence i highlighted doesn't make sense - did you mean to write 'even though the iphone IS a smartphone'
and 'kinda useless really'??? - show me a phone that does more ;P
go on lol - show me!
and as for multitouch screens coming out before the iphone does, perhaps they will but will they be better?
This is where you lose the argument. The iPhone is inferior to the Sony Ericsson.

Face Warp
HP Print
Photo Mate
Radio
Games
Photo DJ
Music DJ
Video DJ
Remote Control (bluetooth)

The iPhone does only 2 of them (I imagine). This excludes the camera, MP3 Player, Video, SMS, MMS, Voice Mail, Internet, Calendar etc.

So the iPhone is just a miniscule smart phone at best. I wouldn't call it a Smart Phone, because there are loads of phones at there that do just what the iPhone does, plus more.


iphone will rock (at least in my eyes) - and arguing is fun isn't it? :)
The iPhone is just another phone that is inferior to Sony Ericsson, even though there are loads of phones coming out soon that have the same technology. And you can't really use a multi-touch screen any different than any other multi-touch screen.

[BL!NKEY]

The mouse on a Mac and PC are like a mans balls. The PC has 2 while a Mac has one."

Common misconception from people who have never used a mac recently. The mouses actualy have a right and left click. Along with side squeeze buttons and a 360 degree scroll ball.





I've seen the demonstration of the iPhone. The CEO talked so much crap I got bored. As I've talked about, full web browsing is pointless if you cannot save parts of the pages to the phone itself. You might aswell do it at home on your PC/Mac. I also am confused with what you mean by "what makes you think is the internet." It connects to the internet, therefore uses the internet. What you said made no sense.

Full web browsing is pointless? What are you talking about. About 99% of what I do on the web i dont need to save parts onto my computer. You can go check your email or a web page. Even come on here and post on habbox. OF corse you could do it easier at home with a full keyboard and 20" screen but the point of the iPhone is that it is portable.



I don't see what Apple mean by running OS X. Looking at the phone, it is just like any other phone? What has it got from OS X on it?

It is a mini OS X. Like windows mobile on some phones.

[BL!NKEY]

sorry internet didnt move but sent all these

[BL!NKEY]

sorry internet didnt move but sent all these

[BL!NKEY]

sorry internet didnt move but sent all these

[BL!NKEY]

sorry internet didnt move but sent all these

[dog-egg]

YAY!!! Go Blinkey!!! What he doesn't know is I actually have a sonyericsson at the moment so i know exactly what it can and can't do, and I have a sony vaio to use at work, but my powerbook is miles thinner and feels better quality

i think it's funny how nuts ppl go over the whole mac/pc debate...

regardless, as soon as iphone is out, this ericsson is history... and goodbye to this rotten stylus

long live the mightymouse!!!!

[Dentafrice1]

Too big.. maybe should be small... and it should work with verizon.

[BL!NKEY]

YAY!!! Go Blinkey!!! What he doesn't know is I actually have a sonyericsson at the moment so i know exactly what it can and can't do, and I have a sony vaio to use at work, but my powerbook is miles thinner and feels better quality

i think it's funny how nuts ppl go over the whole mac/pc debate...

regardless, as soon as iphone is out, this ericsson is history... and goodbye to this rotten stylus

long live the mightymouse!!!!

There we go. Someone who has a sony ericsson and knows about the iPhone. Somebody who has a PC and a Mac.

Now tell me that the iPhone is a bad idea.

People will buy it and love it and Apple will make money. Try to tell us that the iPhone is a bad idea.

[GommeInc]

YAY!!! Go Blinkey!!! What he doesn't know is I actually have a sonyericsson at the moment so i know exactly what it can and can't do, and I have a sony vaio to use at work, but my powerbook is miles thinner and feels better quality

i think it's funny how nuts ppl go over the whole mac/pc debate...

regardless, as soon as iphone is out, this ericsson is history... and goodbye to this rotten stylus

long live the mightymouse!!!!
So then you know for a fact, that the Sony Ericsson has more applications that have some good uses? Or are you going to pretend you have a Sony Ericsson and say it doesn't? Or do you have an old Sony Ericsson phone?

A Sony Ericsson does more than an iPhone, except full web browsing and the multi-touch, but you get the obvious equivilent of buttons and the mini browser. But still, the Sony Ericsson has more applications than an iPhone. You can even download applications if you want, like Bluetooth Messenger.

You never did state that the iPhone is inferior to many already existing super phones "/ So as far as I am concerned, your comment on having a Sony Ericsson was and is pointless. Your Sony Ericsson has a stylus?!

My Sony Vaio is far smaller than a Mac Book:

My Sony Vaio Laptop:

Weight 2.3 kg
Height 37 mm
Width 329.6 mm
Depth 235.6 mm

The Mac Book:

Weight 2.39 kg
Height 27 mm
Width 325 mm
Depth 227 mm

Other than the height, it is nice and small "/ So, any other dumb comments with no proof? And nom, I do not want dumb comments like "But the Mac Book has a camera, it's built in to the screen, which makes indifferent to Width, Depth and Weight, they weigh next to nothing.

The "Might Mouse" has nothing mighty about it "/ It looks like a mouse and it's use is a mouse, so nothing "mighty" about it. Looks like Apple trying to be funny again.

I like how you love people on your side of an argument. An obvious weakness that you're trying to get as many allies. The fact this is a debate, where you need to give your views and fend for yourselfis out of the question for you "/



There we go. Someone who has a sony ericsson and knows about the iPhone. Somebody who has a PC and a Mac.
You cannot know the iPhone, it hasn't been released? Besides, I proved him wrong and as you should know, he never did say it was worse or better than the iPhone?


Now tell me that the iPhone is a bad idea.
It's not, it's just another phone with nothing original about it. Except the iPod, which is just another MP3 player in a phone, like Sony's Walkman.


People will buy it and love it and Apple will make money. Try to tell us that the iPhone is a bad idea.
Obviously people will buy it, Apple can sell anything with 'i' infront and make it seem cool. Have you not seen their "amazing" adverts? They literally scream why Apple is so good. Even though Apple have proven to me they're poor hippies (taken from the adverts). PC looks like he is doing good for himself and has a family that is easy to run. Mac doesn't mention his family, so he isn't proud of them.

Oh, have you also noticed the new Mac adverts about Vista? Don't get me started on how pathetic Mac have made themselves look. The firewall on Vista is not what is portrayed in those ads, far from it.


Common misconception from people who have never used a mac recently. The mouses actualy have a right and left click. Along with side squeeze buttons and a 360 degree scroll ball.
I used one last week, unless they've just released them. Hmmm, funny thing that, I wonder if Apple realised that a one button mouse was pointless? A 360 degree call is also pointless. You only need up, down, left and right on a PC.


Full web browsing is pointless? What are you talking about. About 99% of what I do on the web i dont need to save parts onto my computer. You can go check your email or a web page. Even come on here and post on habbox. OF corse you could do it easier at home with a full keyboard and 20" screen but the point of the iPhone is that it is portable.
You're not millions of phone users. You're just one person. You can check your e-mail on a normal phone, with the e-mail function. Or, if you have Gmail, go on it with a browser. You don't need the huge browser to do that either. Even though it's a good idea, for what I want in a phone, it'll just be another pointless feature which I can do at home or at college, or on my laptop?

[dog-egg]

lmao - there's little point in attempting to carry on the argument with you!
have a look at what you wrote about the dimensions again hahahahahaha
apart from weight the vaio loses on all counts... :P
fyi i've got a p990...
and how can u say that the iphone has worse apps than the ericsson when the iphone hasn't been released and the software is unconfirmed
your contradictions, and erratic form of arguing mean that there is no coherent point in anything that you type - surely the more choice that a consumer has, the better? why try to belittle apple users? at no point have i done the same for PC users, so why the huge chip on your shoulder?

bizarre

[GommeInc]

lmao - there's little point in attempting to carry on the argument with you!
have a look at what you wrote about the dimensions again hahahahahaha
apart from weight the vaio loses on all counts... :P
Lol so it is :P Ignoring that, it isn't "miles thinner" and considering I mucked up what I said, although it is higher and wider, considering it is a Media Laptop, it needs this. Unless you want to view movies on a screen that's a few inches smaller "/ I'm not sure where this argument came from, because the Sony VAIO I have is a media laptop and anything by Apple is focused on media, so really, anything that is big, but easy to handle, is better than having something small which doesn't give you the full viewing pleasure you demand.


fyi i've got a p990...
Well the k800i and w200i has loads of applications which the iPhone probably won't have, but we'll have to wait for its release.


and how can u say that the iphone has worse apps than the ericsson when the iphone hasn't been released and the software is unconfirmed
I never said anything about the apps being terrible? I said that there is a possibility that they couldn't be very good or not having them at all "/


your contradictions, and erratic form of arguing mean that there is no coherent point in anything that you type - surely the more choice that a consumer has, the better? why try to belittle apple users? at no point have i done the same for PC users, so why the huge chip on your shoulder?
I wouldn't say you get a huge selection of choice with a Mac, you get more with a PC "/ You can customize your system to how you please, while with a Mac you can't customize as much as your would with a PC. You get more choice of colours, while with Macs it just appears you can get white and black?

I'm not belittling them, I'm just saying how it is and what I think. Besides, Apple belittle Windows, and fail miserably in their adverts with more visible flaws than Windows.

Mac is a poor hippy with a bad family. PC is doing well for himself, with a good family and friendly sense of humour with no dumb sarcastic comments from Mac, which kinda sum up Apple really. A joke "/

[Mentor]

[COLOR="Black"]That's right, he's a game producer. So why is he important, right? Well, he's the producer for the first PS3 game with motion technology- Warhawk. The development team were told about motion sensing *2 weeks* before the Sony keynote at E3, and had days before the event to tweak the controls a little. (Note: At the time of the keynote, a whole year after Sony first introduced the PS3, Warhawk was the only game that offered motion sensing.) So if motion sensing was an original plan of Sony's, why would they choose to release critical information about controller input just weeks before a major event? It doesn't make sense if it actually were a main feature.
As obviously, actualy encoprateing the technology in to the controller, creating the functionalty to allow the ps3 to interprite it etc, wasnt a concern, and wouldnt have needed to be in development for a substantal time period o.0
More than likley it was a unconfirmed feature, aka they haddent decided to use it or cut it out for the final version till quite late in the devlopment, which commonly happens in such situations. In responce to wii haveing it maybe? Copying, not really possible as they couldnt develop it from start to finish in such a short time frame.



When have developers claimed full use of Blu Rays was happening? oO The only time I recall developers speaking about the storage space is when they mentioned that they *wouldn't* use the full disc, unless you can site otherwise.o.0 interesting, even Howard ("Drive speed matters more to me [than capacity], and Blu-ray is slower.") has said hes going to use the full disk, even if to store redundant data?


Not really, since DVDs have a variable speed depending on where its loading (inner or outter edge) while Blu-Ray will load at a constant rate. oO As an example, DVD x12 has a rate of ~9MB/s at minimum (inner edge), which is the roughly the same, or better, than a BD x2.
Thats all nice, but im not talking about 12* dvd's. Im taking about the WII, which only has read speeds simlar to that of dvd *6... which, not suprisingly is somewhat slower.
If where going to suddenly jump around to speeds the wii cant do, why not jump around with blu-ray's as well, a blu-ray *8 goes one hell of alot faster (288 Mbit/s). Plus you forgot to include the fact the ps3 can stream information from its hard drive... which is also quite substantaly faster.


Fault tolerance. And while Blu-Ray does offer many protections against everyday wear and tear, it's still just a disc. Sure, a hard drive is just a disc as well, but recovering data from the latter is already available while recovering data from a burned/shattered BD is pretty much impossible.Well in normal circumstances, as with every other medium there is no. if you really want to get in to it, get some frenzic lazers, you can read the data in the same way you could read a shatted hard disk plate. So i dont get the differnece really "/


I meant developers would have to unconditionally support the Blu-Ray format regardless of performance. Since the PS3's Blu-Ray player is internal and not external, the format is basically being used to lure support from the gaming market even when it isn't really needed.
Sony build there consoles to last a few years, the requierments go up fast, so why not use the blu-ray disk? After all the ps1's success is partly down to useing a Blu-ray CD?


So, with that logic, Xbox 360 isn't a next-gen console because it doesn't have motion sensing or offer the ability to read a high-definition format.
Urmm, actualy the xbox 360 does suport hd content?

oO The next generation of anything is just an upgrade to anything currently avialable in whatever its predeceding. The analogy I wrote was basically saying; You don't have a great product just because you used the best materials. Technological superiority doesn't mean your product will have ensured success. You have to have content that'll sell the product. Take last gen for example, the Gamecube was superior in specs, but the PS2 ended up winning the console battles.
That would be true, if that was what you had claimed, but you made no mention of better console, you made mention of whether its a 7th gen console, which is directly mesuered by technolgical serfistciaion in the device.

It was because of the games. Playstation 2's game library offered a very wide variety of games that attracted a much bigger audience. The PS3 so far has very lackluster games, and development costs don't help either which just drives the indie game market away from that console = less games. The Wii offers a much cheaper solution for developing games which has successfully driven more developers to make games for it. Point being, in game consoles, it doesn't matter what specs you boast if you don't have good games. Many consoles have flopped because of this.
Well its kinda obvious, but still very true, a console is only as good as the games made for it. but the games can only be as good as the console allows them to be.

Also i support blu-ray as a format, im not so bothered about the ps3's useage of it. Blu-ray outdoes hd-dvd and all other formats in every aspect, and also has massivly outsold hd-dvd.

[BL!NKEY]

My Sony Vaio is far smaller than a Mac Book:

My Sony Vaio Laptop:

Weight 2.3 kg
Height 37 mm
Width 329.6 mm
Depth 235.6 mm

The Mac Book:

Weight 2.39 kg
Height 27 mm
Width 325 mm
Depth 227 mm

Other than the height, it is nice and small "/ So, any other dumb comments with no proof? And nom, I do not want dumb comments like "But the Mac Book has a camera, it's built in to the screen, which makes indifferent to Width, Depth and Weight, they weigh next to nothing.

Lol I thought that was a joke but I guess you are serious. Look at the size. The Mac is smaller in all dimentions


The "Might Mouse" has nothing mighty about it "/ It looks like a mouse and it's use is a mouse, so nothing "mighty" about it. Looks like Apple trying to be funny again.

The thing that people like about it is that it looks simple. It can be used as a one button simple mouse with a scroll ball. Or you can use the right button and side buttons and ball button so you have a nice mouse. It looks simple and that goes in with the style of Apple.


Obviously people will buy it

So to answer the thread question. Yes the iPhone is a good idea.




Oh, have you also noticed the new Mac adverts about Vista? Don't get me started on how pathetic Mac have made themselves look. The firewall on Vista is not what is portrayed in those ads, far from it.

I have talked with people about this ad and they think it is funny because they have installed vista and it is like that. The whole cancel or allow thing.



I used one last week, unless they've just released them. Hmmm, funny thing that, I wonder if Apple realised that a one button mouse was pointless? A 360 degree call is also pointless. You only need up, down, left and right on a PC.

No they have been out for years with a double click. You cant tell from the outside but if you click the right side only it is right click. You can set it to only single click if you want though. One button mouse are not pointless. Some novice computer users will never need use the right click.

About the 360 degree scroll ball. Using excell or photoshop while you are zoomed in the side scroll comes in helpful. You can go down and left with the ball. So it is not pointless. Just a nice feature.

[GommeInc]

Lol I thought that was a joke but I guess you are serious. Look at the size. The Mac is smaller in all dimentions.
Which in itself isn't a good thing. For a Media System like Macs, they would need a big screen to get the full satisfaction with the system. My laptop is perfect with Windows Media System with it's Wide Screen and LCD screen. The MacBook is small yes, but it doesn't mean it is necessarily good for it "/


The thing that people like about it is that it looks simple. It can be used as a one button simple mouse with a scroll ball. Or you can use the right button and side buttons and ball button so you have a nice mouse. It looks simple and that goes in with the style of Apple.
So Apple just use the word "mighty" to look hip and cool, when infact it is out of context and has nothing particularly mighty about it? You might aswell call it iMouse, I am sure people would buy who would buy anythign with "i" infront.


So to answer the thread question. Yes the iPhone is a good idea.
I never said it was a bad idea "/ I just said it will be another product that will be released after others with the same features, including a touch pad of some sort. Even though I am convinced that it won't have half enough interesting features as any other smart phones.


I have talked with people about this ad and they think it is funny because they have installed vista and it is like that. The whole cancel or allow thing.
Apple are just picking out the obvious and taking it out of proportion, as per usual. If you have Zone Alarm Firewall, you get warnings like this. It is easy to solved, you just say "Remember this setting" or agree or decline, depends what it is like. Apple just put it into the real world context which has more inputs and outputs and make it look stupid, which in reality it isn't.


No they have been out for years with a double click. You cant tell from the outside but if you click the right side only it is right click. You can set it to only single click if you want though. One button mouse are not pointless. Some novice computer users will never need use the right click.
I like to be able to right click and save. Much faster than File, Save as. I also like to know what I am pressing and see the options. 2 mice buttons, not one with two settings "/


About the 360 degree scroll ball. Using excell or photoshop while you are zoomed in the side scroll comes in helpful. You can go down and left with the ball. So it is not pointless. Just a nice feature.
Nice, but pointless. Can't you hover over and area and zoom, which is probably more simple and faster?

[BL!NKEY]

Which in itself isn't a good thing. For a Media System like Macs, they would need a big screen to get the full satisfaction with the system. My laptop is perfect with Windows Media System with it's Wide Screen and LCD screen. The MacBook is small yes, but it doesn't mean it is necessarily good for it "

First you argue that the MacBook is too big. Now you realized that it is smaller so you are saying that it is too small. People get different size monitors depending on what they need to use the laptops for. If someone wanted a bigger screen they could always go for a 15" or 17" MacBook Pro



So Apple just use the word "mighty" to look hip and cool, when infact it is out of context and has nothing particularly mighty about it? You might aswell call it iMouse, I am sure people would buy who would buy anythign with "i" infront.

Are you really arguing that there is nothing mighty about the mouse so they should change the name?

Many companies put cool words infront of their product. This is nothing new. The mighty mouse does have some cool features and to some it might be mighty. Maybe not to you.



I like to be able to right click and save. Much faster than File, Save as. I also like to know what I am pressing and see the options. 2 mice buttons, not one with two settings "/

I like to have a right click too. But I am saying that it isnt pointless to have a single click option because some computer users who are not as computer literate as us will never have the need for a two click mouse. It is more simpler for them with just one button to click and open things. I know old people who use the computer and they go up to file and go down to save to save something. I usually just use command S.



Nice, but pointless. Can't you hover over and area and zoom, which is probably more simple and faster?

You can hold down the apple key and move the scroll ball and it zooms in on the screen. But I am saying like working on a spreadsheet you can scroll to the right and down by going diagnol. That is a nice feature. Seems pritty mighty to me :)

[-Wolverine]

I know this is off topic but; Woah, the debate about Apple and Microsoft or whatver between BL!NKEY and Gomme is still going on? :s

[BL!NKEY]

I know this is off topic but; Woah, the debate about Apple and Microsoft or whatver between BL!NKEY and Gomme is still going on? :s

Haha. Its ok. The thread is over in two days. Then I can let my hand rest.

I stopped for a few pages in the middle and they were doing huge posts.

[GommeInc]

First you argue that the MacBook is too big. Now you realized that it is smaller so you are saying that it is too small. People get different size monitors depending on what they need to use the laptops for. If someone wanted a bigger screen they could always go for a 15" or 17" MacBook Pro.
After realizing what argument we're in now, a laptop with a bigger screen that focuses on Media uses is better at its job than a laptop with a small screen. Apple boast that their systems are excellent with fun stuff, or in reality, photos, videos etc. Now, a bigger monitor would be more sufficient to its duties than a tiny, pathetic monitor. And this monitor size argument, you get laptops that come from 13.3" monitors to 17" +. So Macs haven't stumbled across anything brilliant.


Are you really arguing that there is nothing mighty about the mouse so they should change the name?
No, I am saying that the mighty mouse isn't mightier than any mouse already on the market. I am just saying it is a stupid name to call it. Although, anything Apple create is blown up into something ridiculously stupid to sell to stupid people who don't look into things and buy because of a name e.g. iPhone, iPod, iMac and so on.


Many companies put cool words infront of their product. This is nothing new. The mighty mouse does have some cool features and to some it might be mighty. Maybe not to you.
No, because I have enough sense to look at the details and form my own opinions on a product. Just because it is called mighty, doesn't mean it s amazingly brilliant compared to anything else "/ As you would think from something called mighty. Also, I don't loads of companies do put cool words to impress people. Maybe it is just anything trying to sell kids, or Apple users "/


I like to have a right click too. But I am saying that it isn't pointless to have a single click option because some computer users who are not as computer literate as us will never have the need for a two click mouse. It is more simpler for them with just one button to click and open things. I know old people who use the computer and they go up to file and go down to save to save something. I usually just use command S.
In this day in age, child and adults learn how to use a computer just beyond basic level. The right click of a mouse is one of the things you learn. Going back to Key Skills IT at college, they taught you these things again, even though I've known about right clicking since Year 4... Same with anyone else, and as with most people, we'll form our own ideas of how something works. Right click, copy looks awfully familiar as Edit, copy. So we could experiment to see if it is the same... Loads of people experiment, why do you think humans are clever than most animals, even though lab rats learn "/


You can hold down the apple key and move the scroll ball and it zooms in on the screen. But I am saying like working on a spreadsheet you can scroll to the right and down by going diagnol. That is a nice feature. Seems pritty mighty to me :)
You have to hold two mouse buttons? Might as well go to where you want and zoom to save awkwardness.

[dog-egg]

erm iphone? Gomme? iphone? the topic? iPHONE?
ah, too busy trying to verbally bully people and belittle them rather than argue any of your points with finesse, eh?

i bought a mac way back in '96 i think before ipods, or anything else with 'i' in front - i bought it because it was different and i was pleased to have an alternative choice

the iphone is a device that perhaps offers many of the same features that others do, maybe has less in some departments, more in others - the question was whether apple should stick to computers or if the phone was a good idea...

the more choice we have, surely it's an advantage? nobody is forcing you to buy it - the fact it has an 'i' in front of it has no bearing on my decision to buy one, i just choose to buy one because i prefer it to other phones

[GommeInc]

erm iphone? Gomme? iphone? the topic? iPHONE?
ah, too busy trying to verbally bully people and belittle them rather than argue any of your points with finesse, eh?
I was belittling? Yes, you believe that... We're still discussing the iPhone, but it seems the argument has split up into a battle of Apples over-exaggerated advertising methods, MP3 players and general system compared to what is advertised truthfully and doesn't mock another company at the same time.


i bought a mac way back in '96 i think before ipods, or anything else with 'i' in front - i bought it because it was different and i was pleased to have an alternative choice
Good for you. The Mac offers nothing I cannot already get on a PC, plus more. I have no use for them or any other Apple product.


the iphone is a device that perhaps offers many of the same features that others do, maybe has less in some departments, more in others - the question was whether apple should stick to computers or if the phone was a good idea...
I haven't seen anything on the iPhone about is offering more than other phones. The touch-screen is impressive, but it is just an alternative to buttons, and judging from this, it doesn't seem a very good alternative. That's just me though, I'll see if my predictions are correct when I play with a fully working one. How and when I don't know, I am sceptical they'll come to the UK, half the features won't work as good here e.g. Wi-Fi, Google Maps and even the name iPhone is already being used by a company.


the more choice we have, surely it's an advantage? nobody is forcing you to buy it - the fact it has an 'i' in front of it has no bearing on my decision to buy one, i just choose to buy one because i prefer it to other phones
Are you sure about that? You seem to hint you want an iPhone because it has been produced by Apple. Probably accidentally hinted. I don't exactly find the iPhone too appealing to me, I only find the touch-screen impressive. As stated, the Wi-Fi connect would be hard to use in the UK, there isn't very much connectivity in the UK, other than in London, but they're mostly passworded. I only really like the multi-touch pad, but I can't see it doing very well, it seems quicker to call someone with buttons, than scrolling through the touch pad with a finger.

[ColyTom]

Unfortunately, this may mean that the era of ipod's is over unless the iPhone doesn't do too well.. :(

[GommeInc]

Unfortunately, this may mean that the era of ipod's is over unless the iPhone doesn't do too well.. :(
I'm confused? I very much doubt it. Sony make just as good (perhaps better) MP3's and they have phones, laptops, PCs etc going at the same time! Apple isn't that useless "/