Do You Think Immigrants Should Serve?

[VirtualG]

I heard this very good statement the other day and no matter which country your from (Uk, Us, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc...) they all have immigration problems and the statement said, why not make all immigrants over 20 serve in the arm forces (not necesserialy fighting but maybe helping with other things such as working in the munitions departments...) whats your idea?

[Ardemax]

live their life normally

if they've fled from Afghanistan or something, it would be stupid to send them back.

[VirtualG]

live their life normally

if they've fled from Afghanistan or something, it would be stupid to send them back.
I never said send them back. Just that they work in the armed forces, they can provide food in the mess hall at a base back in the uk or what ever...

[Ardemax]

"what's a gun"

army: :eusa_doh:

ye.

ok mr virtualg, why do they have to work in the armed forces? why can't some lazy people do it who earn money by sitting on their butt?

[Jordy]

I know they won't necessarily be placed on the frontline but this idea very much gives the impression of them becoming nothing more than "Human Shields" for our soldiers. It's almost like you want them to risk their life if they wish to be part of the UK, that's wrong on so many levels.

On the plus side it might make them more patriotic but the fact is, people will always be loyal to their homelands. They may well become British Citizens but they're more than likely to still love where ever is really home, time in the army won't change that.

[UKIP]

It is pointless talking about immigration really, the European Union prevents us from controlling our on borders and even if we could, we have Labour in charge remember.

How to solve immigration?

- Leave European Union.
- Refuse to accept people from the camps on France/on the mainland.
- Enforce restrictions concerning education, job, wealth & health like Austrialia has.
- Only accept people whos jobs we need (not many at moment considering millions are out of work).
- Immigrants have no entitlement to welfare system (including health) until being in work in the United Kingdom for 2 to 5 years.

[VirtualG]

"what's a gun"

army: :eusa_doh:

ye.

ok mr virtualg, why do they have to work in the armed forces? why can't some lazy people do it who earn money by sitting on their butt?
Because they were born into this country and have contributed to it slowly over their life, the immigrants though cant just move here and then just stay, with things like this then you get things (and this is just talking about Australia in these examples) The cronulla RAce riots when a group of "wogs" stabbed three Australian Life savers and the whole of Australia went around in two groups, wogs and Aussies and beat the crap out of each other. You get things like two countries that were at war in the country they came from and when they get here and realise that wait, we came here because they were bombing us, why can they come here? Then you get a battle between two groups like the Surbs and Croatians. I have been interacting with the Australian Military my whole life, I've only met 1 man that wasn't Australian or of British decent, he was an indian btw. If you make them fight for something, then they'll respect it and feel like they've earnt it, they wont destroy or ruin something they've fought for. This would also scare them to stop them coming to our country in the first place.

It is pointless talking about immigration really, the European Union prevents us from controlling our on borders and even if we could, we have Labour in charge remember.

How to solve immigration?

- Leave European Union.
- Refuse to accept people from the camps on France/on the mainland.
- Enforce restrictions concerning education, job, wealth & health like Austrialia has.
- Only accept people whos jobs we need (not many at moment considering millions are out of work).
- Immigrants have no entitlement to welfare system (including health) until being in work in the United Kingdom for 2 to 5 years.
Im not just Talking about the Uk, or Europe, Im talking about Australia, America, ect... Thats why I dont why Afghanistan is the only example, why not mexico? And they dont even have to leave what ever country they have just immigrated to, they canjust stay at the local military base organising drill sesions or taking care of equipment, this also assures them of a paying job, health insurance, etc...

[ifuseekamy]

So when Britons emmigrate to countries like Dubai or Spain they should be immediately sent to fight for the United Arab army or Spanish forces?

[Black_Apalachi]

It is pointless talking about immigration really, the European Union prevents us from controlling our on borders and even if we could, we have Labour in charge remember.

How to solve immigration?

- Leave European Union.
- Refuse to accept people from the camps on France/on the mainland.
- Enforce restrictions concerning education, job, wealth & health like Austrialia has.
- Only accept people whos jobs we need (not many at moment considering millions are out of work).
- Immigrants have no entitlement to welfare system (including health) until being in work in the United Kingdom for 2 to 5 years.

This ^

I don't even get the whole issue with Callais. The EU are telling Britian and France to sort it out amongst themselves yeah? So why don't we just tell France to **** off, they're in your country, you ******* sort it out? :rolleyes:

[VirtualG]

So when Britons emmigrate to countries like Dubai or Spain they should be immediately sent to fight for the United Arab army or Spanish forces?
These countries dont have the problem we do. Half the reason this has been put forward is because it will reduce the amount of immigrants in the first place. And, to answer your question, if it is for a pernament visa, then yes.

[RandomManJay]

These countries dont have the problem we do. Half the reason this has been put forward is because it will reduce the amount of immigrants in the first place. And, to answer your question, if it is for a pernament visa, then yes.

That would take away the reason why people would want to migrate to other countries, so the UK wont receive as many immigrants which does help us considering the issue were facing, but if its was implemented in other countries as well no one would want to migrate from the UK because if they did, they would be forced into the armed forces of that country.

It is a good idea on paper, but the problem wouldn't be so easily dealt with, there are many immigrants who come to the UK because of other reasons such as acceptance and effort for equalising disability etc. and some of the immigrants do actually want to work in this country and do end up in employment. So if it was implemented it would have to work on a basis of age, unemployment (for how long and if they are on the dole etc.), disability, education, training, family, and many other things. It could work, but it would have to be done carefully.

[Alkaz]

Immigration is ridiculous anyway, they should seek asylum or what ever in the first country they come to once leaving there country but no, they travel through 4 or 5 countries to france and then try to get into this country. I heard the other day that its mainly because of the benefits which we all know and because we have no ID cards so they can disappear easily.

It makes me sick, the government needs to sort its own people out first before all the immigrants. Send them packing!

[VirtualG]

That would take away the reason why people would want to migrate to other countries, so the UK wont receive as many immigrants which does help us considering the issue were facing, but if its was implemented in other countries as well no one would want to migrate from the UK because if they did, they would be forced into the armed forces of that country.

It is a good idea on paper, but the problem wouldn't be so easily dealt with, there are many immigrants who come to the UK because of other reasons such as acceptance and effort for equalising disability etc. and some of the immigrants do actually want to work in this country and do end up in employment. So if it was implemented it would have to work on a basis of age, unemployment (for how long and if they are on the dole etc.), disability, education, training, family, and many other things. It could work, but it would have to be done carefully.
Yes! Great points! I think that immigrants shouldn't have to join the arm forces if they are not of age or fit the requirements of their role in the forces. I also think if you have an assured job and stuff then you should be fine. If you are apart of the British commonwealth then you should be able to get a visa without joining the armed forces. Another reason why it would be suppourted is because fighting for a country would make you respect it. Your not gonna try and go no another country knowing that you will have to serve unless you respect it, therefore you wont get these disrecpectful immigrants who come from their country so they (knowingly) can abuse our nice countries and disrespect it...

[adaym]

Erm, no. They should have the choice.

[Immenseman]

I think it's a stupid idea, not just original post but posts within this thread, not all, just some. I think some people are quick to forget that many British people immigrate too and 'take' jobs from the natives. It's ludicrous to suggest they should have to serve or we shouldn't accept immigrants. Just because you live your comfortable life you forget there are millions of people out there with more than valid reasons to want to escape to Britain and other European nations where they're treated as equal, at least by the authorities. We should be proud we people less fortunate than ourselves the chance to start afresh rather than having such negative mentalities.

[alexxxxx]

- Refuse to accept people from the camps on France/on the mainland.

They're illegal immigrants who come over in dodgy lorries. We don't accept them, in fact, the border police work in France to try to make sure they don't even get onto a boat.


- Enforce restrictions concerning education, job, wealth & health like Austrialia has.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf21pbsgeneralmigrant#13731176


- Only accept people whos jobs we need (not many at moment considering millions are out of work).

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf26pbsskilledworker


- Immigrants have no entitlement to welfare system (including health) until being in work in the United Kingdom for 2 to 5 years.
[/QUOTE]
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/ukresidency/rightsandresponsibilities/publicfunds/ (i know that doesn't include NI, but then if you pay NI, then you should really be eligible for it's benefits, or it isn't Insurance, it's a tax).

[UKIP]

They're illegal immigrants who come over in dodgy lorries. We don't accept them, in fact, the border police work in France to try to make sure they don't even get onto a boat.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf21pbsgeneralmigrant#13731176

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf26pbsskilledworker


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/ukresidency/rightsandresponsibilities/publicfunds/ (i know that doesn't include NI, but then if you pay NI, then you should really be eligible for it's benefits, or it isn't Insurance, it's a tax).[/QUOTE]

I don't accept any of it, you and Labour can tell me immigration is controlled but that still doesn't explain how and why we have hundreds of thousands of people here who we dont even know are here, along with the fact why many immigrants travel across the world and a sea, just to come here. ..why? - benefits, its as simple as that.

[alexxxxx]

I don't accept any of it, you and Labour can tell me immigration is controlled but that still doesn't explain how and why we have hundreds of thousands of people here who we dont even know are here, along with the fact why many immigrants travel across the world and a sea, just to come here. ..why? - benefits, its as simple as that.[/QUOTE]

If we don't know that they are here, how can you put a number on it? :)

And they are clearly the rules, as defined by the relevant departments. Don't accept them, that's fine. You're just wrong.

[UKIP]

I don't accept any of it, you and Labour can tell me immigration is controlled but that still doesn't explain how and why we have hundreds of thousands of people here who we dont even know are here, along with the fact why many immigrants travel across the world and a sea, just to come here. ..why? - benefits, its as simple as that.

If we don't know that they are here, how can you put a number on it? :)

And they are clearly the rules, as defined by the relevant departments. Don't accept them, that's fine. You're just wrong.[/QUOTE]

Their have been educated guesses from across the board, if Labour knew this was false then they would of said so, but they dont. They are not rules, hence why we wouldn't have uncontrolled immigration to this country. These people do get benefits, this country would not turn someone away whos homeless and just arrived here with no shelter/money; why do you honestley think they travel across 20+ countries and the English Channel to come to the United Kingdom?

..what do people like you not understand, people here do not want uncontrolled immigration & do not want European Union yet you continue to force it down on us.

[LuketheDuke]

If we don't know that they are here, how can you put a number on it? :)

And they are clearly the rules, as defined by the relevant departments. Don't accept them, that's fine. You're just wrong.

Their have been educated guesses from across the board, if Labour knew this was false then they would of said so, but they dont. They are not rules, hence why we wouldn't have uncontrolled immigration to this country. These people do get benefits, this country would not turn someone away whos homeless and just arrived here with no shelter/money; why do you honestley think they travel across 20+ countries and the English Channel to come to the United Kingdom?

..what do people like you not understand, people here do not want uncontrolled immigration & do not want European Union yet you continue to force it down on us.[/QUOTE]


dont take this discussion off topic with your slanted, angry opinions. this debate is about immigration not the European Union whos regulations have been linked to you but you dont read for some reason.

As for service in the armed forces i dont get it. is it such a good idea when these people might not speak english, are probably malnourished and maybe scarred from acts of extreme violence from their homelands to begin with?

[-:Undertaker:-]

dont take this discussion off topic with your slanted, angry opinions. this debate is about immigration not the European Union whos regulations have been linked to you but you dont read for some reason.

As for service in the armed forces i dont get it. is it such a good idea when these people might not speak english, are probably malnourished and maybe scarred from acts of extreme violence from their homelands to begin with?

The European Union has everything to do with it, because it has removed the power of the United Kingdom to patrol its own borders with its human rights acts, and its open border federal policy. I know European Union polciies very well thanks, and I don't need a socialist/EU/Labour site to tell me how great the European Union is, many of which I have bene linked to in the past, once someone even linked me to a pro-Trotsky/Lenin site to prove a point! - thats like me linking you to the UKIP/Conservative site and telling you that proves they are right no matter what.

I could throw links around all night, from the Daily Mail, UKIP, Conservatives, Daily Telegraph - but that isn't a discussion.

[alexxxxx]

Daily Mail - Rag
Telegraph - Mail with a reading age
UKIP - Useless closet racists.
Conservatives - Not as useless as UKIP, but everyone can see through Cameron.

The European Union has nothing to do with it.

Immigrants come to the UK looking for a job. Without papers it's impossible to get benefits. They come off the lorries, call up someone and get picked up and taken to wherever and then get a low-paid (probably less than minimum-wage) job. They don't get a free car/house/£1000 Voucher at Harrods/Mobile.

Likewise, illegal immigrants often stop in Italy, France, Netherlands, Spain and other european nations. Italy has stepped up it's med border control and Malta is under pressure to do the same. Spain's border control at the south is strictly monitored. But these illegals risk life and limb to get a (in their eyes) well paid job.

and to answer the OP's question, no, it's a stupid idea. We should be scaling back costs in all public sectors, not increasing them.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Daily Mail - Rag
Telegraph - Mail with a reading age
UKIP - Useless closet racists.
Conservatives - Not as useless as UKIP, but everyone can see through Cameron.

The European Union has nothing to do with it.

Immigrants come to the UK looking for a job. Without papers it's impossible to get benefits. They come off the lorries, call up someone and get picked up and taken to wherever and then get a low-paid (probably less than minimum-wage) job. They don't get a free car/house/£1000 Voucher at Harrods/Mobile.

Likewise, illegal immigrants often stop in Italy, France, Netherlands, Spain and other european nations. Italy has stepped up it's med border control and Malta is under pressure to do the same. Spain's border control at the south is strictly monitored. But these illegals risk life and limb to get a (in their eyes) well paid job.

and to answer the OP's question, no, it's a stupid idea. We should be scaling back costs in all public sectors, not increasing them.

Congratulations, by calling UKIP racist you've just made yourself appear a complete and utter fool, because like Labour & the left (who at times you try to distance yourself from) you have just thrown a comment on the board which is degrading and totally untrue, just because somebody doesn't have the same political views as yourself.

It is no wonder everyone treads carefully now when it comes to immigration, because anyone who calls for restrictions or a cap on immigration is automatically called racist or homophobic by the loony left, in a way this country deserves to go down the pan because people like you just do not value democracy in anyway at all, anything that opposes you is racist, xenophobic or homophobic, anything that gives the people a say is not allowed - just makes me depair of this country and the police state that is being brought in, totally supported by the likes of you to stop the evil conservatives (who are all racist, homophobic, xenophobic and other other name you can dish out under the sun) sorting this country out and giving the people what they want.

Italy attempted and did (by ignoring the European Union) sort out the issue of Roma people who were illegal to the country, but the European Union called for the Italian government to stop because it was apparentley discriminating against the Roma people - just proves you cant win.

[LuketheDuke]

wow well done by referencing italy in all this, probably the only country on the planet that wouldnt turn on Burlesconi whilst he cheated on his wife with multiple 18year old girls.

the difference between the telegraph and law is that one counts for something whilst the other is only a nudge in a direction of uncertainty. It does annoy everyone when you dont look at statute fact.

im willing to transverse my political opinion even if it goes against my socialist ideology, Undertaker you need to reach middle grounds otherwise discussion cant be developed.

[ashyboy999]

immigrants shouldnt be coming in now taking jobs, there is going to be 3 million qualified workers in this country unemployed, about to lose their home and everything they own and our government is more concerned of the immigrants and them getting the jobs so many british people need.

we are seeing a change in the UK people are sick to death of being second class because they were born here and it is the complete opposite to how it is supposed to be. immgrants know theyd be favoured over the british people and labour is now learning that if they dont stop stabbing us in the back we'll elect this fascist parties like the BNP because at least they listen to us. the only people who oppose them are those that are immigrants or not british.

british people do oppose the BNP too but you see they are confused they think that protecting our borders from alqueda terrorists, deporting ILLEGAL immigrants and bringing back our independance is racist and facist. how these people react to the BNP just shows thanks to multiculture this country can be a very dangerous place to live in. with people willing to murder to stay in this country wether right or wrong. is that the kind of country we should be living in?? have no opinion and say because it might offend immigrants and if it does be afraid because THEY can turn deadly???

[5,5]

I think most people move countries to get more possibilities to fulfill their lives, not to sell their lives for x amount of years.

[Black_Apalachi]

Aren't many of the ones coming over from France after British passports?

[Ardemax]

UKIP aren't racist, just have different views?

They have different views that are racist kthnx

[VirtualG]

Erm, no. They should have the choice.
Explanaation please, otherwise your just getting up post counts...

I think it's a stupid idea, not just original post but posts within this thread, not all, just some. I think some people are quick to forget that many British people immigrate too and 'take' jobs from the natives. It's ludicrous to suggest they should have to serve or we shouldn't accept immigrants. Just because you live your comfortable life you forget there are millions of people out there with more than valid reasons to want to escape to Britain and other European nations where they're treated as equal, at least by the authorities. We should be proud we people less fortunate than ourselves the chance to start afresh rather than having such negative mentalities.

Dont call people stupid, stupid. And sorry, haven't we already pointed out that british people (although you keep forgetting this isn't just about Britain, it also includes Canada, US, AUSTRALIA, New Zealand, France, etc...) ? And I have pointed out also that the same rules should apply to you, unless you have an assured job, eg, you are moving to Canada because a business has offered you a job, your moving for the job so your fine. And yes, people do you want to escape to Britain and other European Countries (thanks forgetting Australia and New Zealand again, the two countries the thread was based around, not to mention the others listed above) But, from what I know and have experienced, aren't these immigrants comming in and taking jobs or becomming jobless themselves, causing slums and disrespecting the country, not to mention cost billions of tax payers money each year in border control, caring for them in a off shore prison, etc...


I don't accept any of it, you and Labour can tell me immigration is controlled but that still doesn't explain how and why we have hundreds of thousands of people here who we dont even know are here, along with the fact why many immigrants travel across the world and a sea, just to come here. ..why? - benefits, its as simple as that.
How can you say that theres soo many immigrants and then say you dont know they are here? Kinda contridicts itself, doesn't it? Although I get what you mean and you are right. Thats why immigrants are comming to our countries, to take advantage of and abuse.

If they join armed forces then they are getting education, job experience, money, housing, food, a sense of the nation, learning the language (and becoming more fluent) and respecting their country. It's not just the immediate immigrants, it's their next generation and offspring as they would only tell their cildren the good things about the horrible country they escaped from and the kids would start thinking, "why are we stuck in this crap hole then?" and start disrespecting it. It happens in every single "white" country I've been to.

[J0SH]

No, just because they want to come to another country to improve their lives doesn't mean they should serve in the British army.

Plus, if any of these countries are similar to Turkey, you get forced to do the army for 2 years anyway. Training etc. My brother in law had to leave London to do it for 2 years a few years back. It's really stupid.

[ifuseekamy]

Thats why immigrants are comming to our countries, to take advantage of and abuse.

If they join armed forces then they are getting education, job experience, money, housing, food, a sense of the nation, learning the language (and becoming more fluent) and respecting their country. It's not just the immediate immigrants, it's their next generation and offspring as they would only tell their cildren the good things about the horrible country they escaped from and the kids would start thinking, "why are we stuck in this crap hole then?" and start disrespecting it. It happens in every single "white" country I've been to.
Most people emmigrate to take advantage of wherever they're moving to, there wouldn't be much point in emmigrating otherwise. I think immigration should be controlled but your idea is impractical. As for "white country", Australia is founded on immigration, it's where we sent out convicts. The indigenous people are aborigines who, by nationalist logic, should be in control of the country. The same goes for native Americans in the USA.

[Ardemax]

if we didn't open our arms in world war 2, what would've happened to the immigrants? oh that's right, been killed.

[-:Undertaker:-]

wow well done by referencing italy in all this, probably the only country on the planet that wouldnt turn on Burlesconi whilst he cheated on his wife with multiple 18year old girls.

the difference between the telegraph and law is that one counts for something whilst the other is only a nudge in a direction of uncertainty. It does annoy everyone when you dont look at statute fact.

im willing to transverse my political opinion even if it goes against my socialist ideology, Undertaker you need to reach middle grounds otherwise discussion cant be developed.

I'm not willing to compromise my view and the mainstream view of the British people when I say enough is enough, for too long have you and the left watered down our country, for too long have you come up with left wing/centre ideas which have ruined this country - so no, I don't have to water down my views to please dwindling numbers of socialists who sadly always have the upper hand when it comes to positions of power.

History showed us what happend when you had centre ground politics (Weimar Republic) and history showed us the poverty and death the left brought on the world (USSR, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam & the United Kingdom during the 1970s). The centre doesn't exist, its just socialism with a smiley face (the Liberal Democrats) - you can't please both sides and get a working solution, it just doesn't happen.


UKIP aren't racist, just have different views?

They have different views that are racist kthnx

..I implore you to show me how the United Kingdom Independance Party are racist.


if we didn't open our arms in world war 2, what would've happened to the immigrants? oh that's right, been killed.

We aren't in a world war at this present time.

[alexxxxx]

I'm not willing to compromise my view and the mainstream view of the British people when I say enough is enough, for too long have you and the left watered down our country, for too long have you come up with left wing/centre ideas which have ruined this country - so no, I don't have to water down my views to please dwindling numbers of socialists who sadly always have the upper hand when it comes to positions of power.

History showed us what happend when you had centre ground politics (Weimar Republic) and history showed us the poverty and death the left brought on the world (USSR, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam & the United Kingdom during the 1970s). The centre doesn't exist, its just socialism with a smiley face (the Liberal Democrats) - you can't please both sides and get a working solution, it just doesn't happen.

Your views are exactly what the material you read makes you feel, like you are part of the outraged majority and that everyone else that doesn't adhere to your views are somewhat lower in moral stature. You group everyone that is an enemy of your nationalist, hate-filled, irrational view in the same group (Asylum Seekers/Illegal Immigrants and Immigrants, for example). A large number of people in the UK are left-wing. They're called the silent majority. The right-wing nutters like those who write in the Daily Mail (Amanda Platell, what a hate-filled woman) and Richard Littledick (plays off intolerance and half-truths) and those who read them somehow feel that they are the majority. It just isn't true. You don't accept facts because they don't agree with your viewpoint, (in fact you dismiss them as liberal propaganda) you aren't rational nor can one argue against you because to argue you need to be able to think rationally. Your mind (from what i gather is like this) is blurred from reality.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Your views are exactly what the material you read makes you feel, like you are part of the outraged majority and that everyone else that doesn't adhere to your views are somewhat lower in moral stature. You group everyone that is an enemy of your nationalist, hate-filled, irrational view in the same group (Asylum Seekers/Illegal Immigrants and Immigrants, for example). A large number of people in the UK are left-wing. They're called the silent majority. The right-wing nutters like those who write in the Daily Mail (Amanda Platell, what a hate-filled woman) and Richard Littledick (plays off intolerance and half-truths) and those who read them somehow feel that they are the majority. It just isn't true. You don't accept facts because they don't agree with your viewpoint, (in fact you dismiss them as liberal propaganda) you aren't rational nor can one argue against you because to argue you need to be able to think rationally. Your mind (from what i gather is like this) is blurred from reality.

Hang on.

Which papers are among the best sellers?

- Daily Mail
- Daily Telegraph

Which paper has to be subsidised by the government (because barely anyone buys it) filled with council non-job advertisements?

- The Guardian

I'm afraid sales tell it all, and you can call us hate filled as much as you want, but it just shows how angry and frustrated you and the left become when people have different opinions to you; you come out and splutter the same old rubbish about..

- how we're xenophobic because we are opposed to surrendering British sovereignty to the unelected European Union, which the government refuses to give us a referendum on because it knows it will lose.

- how we're racist because we want something that nearly every other state in the world has, control over our own borders so we know who is coming in to this country.

- how we're all apparentley upper class & rich because we support an individuals right to work hard, earn his money and spend it on himself, which a government has no right to take away from him.

I'd also like to ask something which you haven't yet backed up; how are the United Kingdom Independance Party racists?

[alexxxxx]

Hang on.

Which papers are among the best sellers?

- Daily Mail
- Daily Telegraph

Which paper has to be subsidised by the government (because barely anyone buys it) filled with council non-job advertisements?

- The Guardian

I'm afraid sales tell it all, and you can call us hate filled as much as you want, but it just shows how angry and frustrated you and the left become when people have different opinions to you; you come out and splutter the same old rubbish about..

- how we're xenophobic because we are opposed to surrendering British sovereignty to the unelected European Union, which the government refuses to give us a referendum on because it knows it will lose.

- how we're racist because we want something that nearly every other state in the world has, control over our own borders so we know who is coming in to this country.

- how we're all apparentley upper class & rich because we support an individuals right to work hard, earn his money and spend it on himself, which a government has no right to take away from him.

I'd also like to ask something which you haven't yet backed up; how are the United Kingdom Independance Party racists?

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/?gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Network%20front&link=Network%20front_jbx_logo

http://jobs.telegraph.co.uk/

I don't see a great deal of difference in the jobs being advertised...

I know liberals who read the daily mail, my parents vote lib dem and read the times and telegraph. It isn't as clear cut. I'm just pointing out that your mind has been corrupted.

We know EXACTLY who comes in and out as there are border controls. Guess you've never been abroad because there's a border check when you get off the boat/plane. We aren't racist!

It's just not right that rich people don't contribute to those in the lower echelons of the socio-economic scale to have the same opportunities that they were born in to. Or that poor people have to choose between eating or medicine. Or people can't afford to better themselves via university or FE colleges. Poor people don't want to be poor and many work hard to no avail or don't have the required training to do that. Right wingers don''t think they should have to pay for that. I think everyone should be able to have an equal start in life. In general, most people agree that richer people should be taxed more than poorer people.

Oh and my racist ukip remark wasn't without any sort of truth. Kilroy Silk was in UKIP and was racist and i suspect there are more and even DC claims that there are 'Closet racists' in the party.

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/?gusrc=gu_jobs_box_Network%20front&link=Network%20front_jbx_logo

http://jobs.telegraph.co.uk/

I don't see a great deal of difference in the jobs being advertised...

I know liberals who read the daily mail, my parents vote lib dem and read the times and telegraph. It isn't as clear cut. I'm just pointing out that your mind has been corrupted.

We know EXACTLY who comes in and out as there are border controls. Guess you've never been abroad because there's a border check when you get off the boat/plane. We aren't racist!

It's just not right that rich people don't contribute to those in the lower echelons of the socio-economic scale to have the same opportunities that they were born in to. Or that poor people have to choose between eating or medicine. Or people can't afford to better themselves via university or FE colleges. Poor people don't want to be poor and many work hard to no avail or don't have the required training to do that. Right wingers don''t think they should have to pay for that. I think everyone should be able to have an equal start in life. In general, most people agree that richer people should be taxed more than poorer people.

My mind hasn't been corrupted just because I disagree with you, it seems that every time I disagree with large scale immigration, the European Union or political correctness that I have apparentley been brainwashed into a Daily Mail cult. I don't need papers to discuss these issues, its you who seems to often feel the need to bring up papers everytime a discussion arises.

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/913963/equality-and-diversity-co-ordinator/


Career Opportunities

All boroughs are unique. Many are vibrant and multicultural. Some have a rich historical background. Others have a modern edge. Tower Hamlets is all of these - it’s got the TH buzz that’s felt by those who live and work here...

Equality and Diversity Co-ordinator
£34,707 - £37,476

There is one example that I found, only on page two on the Guardian government-jobs website of a useless non-job, sometimes it makes me wonder how did we ever manage without these people?

653 government jobs advertised by the government in a left wing, hardly bought newspaper which is also known as subsidising, and if you cant see that then you're a lost cause. ..compare this to the Telegraph (a popular newspaper) which has 26 central government jobs on its web site.

We do not know who comes here and who doesn't, hence why their are estimates of thousands, if not into hundreds of thousands of the number of people we dont even know here, of course the government or the opposition can't give a number because we havent got any form of control over this. We have border controls of the population here, the law abiding people of this country who have everytime they leave/arrive in this country scanned on a database (which incidently Spain didn't have when I went on holiday) - but thats always the way, Labour have always punished the majority.

In terms of wages, if a somebody has spent years upon years training in university, doing well in school just why should and what right do a government have to take more of a percentage of his wages, none. Infact the more amazing thing is that when Poll Tax was introduced (which ment each individual paid for themselves rather than the householder) their was utter outcry against it, yet Labour have introduced stealth tax after stealth tax hitting the poor and middle class and there are no protests against it - because its Labour.

I can gurantee when the Conservatives again office the country will be crippled by strikes, because the unions cannot stand anyone (just like you) having a different opinion to them, and they'll use every dirty trick in the book to bring the government down, just watch and I know you'll be one of those chanting from the sidelines "look at the state of the country now the Conservatives are in office, strikes taking place all the time.".

I will also ask again; how are UKIP racist?

EDIT:

I'd like you to show me how Robert Kilroy Silk was racist, futhermore theres no proof what so ever that UKIP is racist at all and finally David Cameron can say what he wants, it doesn't mean I have to agree with his every word.

[Ardemax]

..I implore you to show me how the United Kingdom Independance Party are racist.



We aren't in a world war at this present time.


I didn't say we were in a war, you're avoiding the subject because you knew if someone like UKIP were in power in WW2, not only would we have lost but millions more people would've died.

[alexxxxx]

My mind hasn't been corrupted just because I disagree with you, it seems that every time I disagree with large scale immigration, the European Union or political correctness that I have apparentley been brainwashed into a Daily Mail cult. I don't need papers to discuss these issues, its you who seems to often feel the need to bring up papers everytime a discussion arises.

Well seeing as you link relentlessly to the telegraph and moreso to the daily fail what other conclusion am I meant to think? That you are a free-thinker that looks at everything for several viewpoints? Like someone who makes an informed and intelligent argument?


http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/913963/equality-and-diversity-co-ordinator/



There is one example that I found, only on page two on the Guardian government-jobs website of a useless non-job, sometimes it makes me wonder how did we ever manage without these people?

http://jobs.telegraph.co.uk/job/257953/permanent/london/equality-and-diversity-coordinator-job-vacancy.aspx?rtn=rsl&order=0&pagesize=10&page=0&searchstring=Equality+and+Diversity+Co-ordinator



Career Opportunities

All boroughs are unique. Many are vibrant and multicultural. Some have a rich historical background. Others have a modern edge. Tower Hamlets is all of these - it’s got the TH buzz that’s felt by those who live and work here...

Equality and Diversity Co-ordinator
£34,707 - £37,476

There is one example that I found, on the telegraph government-jobs website of a useless non-job, sometimes it makes me wonder how did we ever manage without these people?


653 government jobs advertised by the government in a left wing, hardly bought newspaper which is also known as subsidising, and if you cant see that then you're a lost cause. ..compare this to the Telegraph (a popular newspaper) which has 26 central government jobs on its web site.

But it has 524 local government jobs. and 26 government jobs, whilst guardian's just goes under 'government'


We do not know who comes here and who doesn't, hence why their are estimates of thousands, if not into hundreds of thousands of the number of people we dont even know here, of course the government or the opposition can't give a number because we havent got any form of control over this. We have border controls of the population here, the law abiding people of this country who have everytime they leave/arrive in this country scanned on a database (which incidently Spain didn't have when I went on holiday) - but thats always the way, Labour have always punished the majority.


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHAA load of tosh! The border controls here are to stop those coming in who aren't citizens or legally allowed to remain here! A sign of a sovereign nation (which isn't even relevant to the EU rubbish you talk of, because we aren't in the schengen zone).



In terms of wages, if a somebody has spent years upon years training in university, doing well in school just why should and what right do a government have to take more of a percentage of his wages, none. Infact the more amazing thing is that when Poll Tax was introduced (which ment each individual paid for themselves rather than the householder) their was utter outcry against it, yet Labour have introduced stealth tax after stealth tax hitting the poor and middle class and there are no protests against it - because its Labour.

Yeah, that's why they put up tax to 50% on those earning a LOT of money. And yeah, they should take more of a percentage, so others can attempt to be able to do the same.


I can gurantee when the Conservatives again office the country will be crippled by strikes, because the unions cannot stand anyone (just like you) having a different opinion to them, and they'll use every dirty trick in the book to bring the government down, just watch and I know you'll be one of those chanting from the sidelines "look at the state of the country now the Conservatives are in office, strikes taking place all the time.".

The unions have little to no power now because they were destroyed by the tories. The percentage of people in unions is fairly low.


I will also ask again; how are UKIP racist?

EDIT:

I'd like you to show me how Robert Kilroy Silk was racist, futhermore theres no proof what so ever that UKIP is racist at all and finally David Cameron can say what he wants, it doesn't mean I have to agree with his every word.
[/QUOTE]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404715.stm

[Ardemax]

Well seeing as you link relentlessly to the telegraph and moreso to the daily fail what other conclusion am I meant to think? That you are a free-thinker that looks at everything for several viewpoints? Like someone who makes an informed and intelligent argument?

http://jobs.telegraph.co.uk/job/257953/permanent/london/equality-and-diversity-coordinator-job-vacancy.aspx?rtn=rsl&order=0&pagesize=10&page=0&searchstring=Equality+and+Diversity+Co-ordinator


There is one example that I found, on the telegraph government-jobs website of a useless non-job, sometimes it makes me wonder how did we ever manage without these people?

But it has 524 local government jobs. and 26 government jobs, whilst guardian's just goes under 'government'


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHAA load of tosh! The border controls here are to stop those coming in who aren't citizens or legally allowed to remain here! A sign of a sovereign nation (which isn't even relevant to the EU rubbish you talk of, because we aren't in the schengen zone).


Yeah, that's why they put up tax to 50% on those earning a LOT of money. And yeah, they should take more of a percentage, so others can attempt to be able to do the same.

The unions have little to no power now because they were destroyed by the tories. The percentage of people in unions is fairly low.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404715.stm[/QUOTE]

well done my friend
nicely owned there +rep

[GommeInc]

The immigration problem with the UK and France is interesting, you have to consider the ideas between the two countries. If we were France, we wouldn't want people in our country trying to go to another country who is denying them access. No-one will :/ I can see if and why France may not like immigrants heading towards us, and you can understand why we don't want immigrants here (well, some do some don't :P) There's no way to actually solve this problem :/

Anyway, to the point at hand... Having immigrants as soldiers is interesting... Because that would make them fear immigrating and would not necessarily cruel. Then again, that's assuming ALL immigrants are evil and useless...

[Accipiter]

didn't read through all posts.

but i have to state, what kind of immigrant, you have the drug trading immigrants, you have terrorist immigrants.

I think your getting at the ones who fled war, which are asylum seekers not immigrants, and i would say no, because if their asylum seekers running from war they don't want to be thrown back into anything related to it. Seeing as when they leave they will be hated by people who fought in their country and it would probaly start a new fued.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I didn't say we were in a war, you're avoiding the subject because you knew if someone like UKIP were in power in WW2, not only would we have lost but millions more people would've died.

:rolleyes:
I will ask again..
How are UKIP racist?


Well seeing as you link relentlessly to the telegraph and moreso to the daily fail what other conclusion am I meant to think? That you are a free-thinker that looks at everything for several viewpoints? Like someone who makes an informed and intelligent argument?

http://jobs.telegraph.co.uk/job/257953/permanent/london/equality-and-diversity-coordinator-job-vacancy.aspx?rtn=rsl&order=0&pagesize=10&page=0&searchstring=Equality+and+Diversity+Co-ordinator


There is one example that I found, on the telegraph government-jobs website of a useless non-job, sometimes it makes me wonder how did we ever manage without these people?

But it has 524 local government jobs. and 26 government jobs, whilst guardian's just goes under 'government'


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHAA load of tosh! The border controls here are to stop those coming in who aren't citizens or legally allowed to remain here! A sign of a sovereign nation (which isn't even relevant to the EU rubbish you talk of, because we aren't in the schengen zone).

Yeah, that's why they put up tax to 50% on those earning a LOT of money. And yeah, they should take more of a percentage, so others can attempt to be able to do the same.

The unions have little to no power now because they were destroyed by the tories. The percentage of people in unions is fairly low.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404715.stm[/QUOTE]

Sorry, where and when do I link to the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph(?), if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd know I am against posting links from sources, because if I post from the Mail or Telegraph that would prove nothing and would of course be a biased source, just like if you linked me to the Guardian/a left wing/EU site it would also be biased.

The illegal immigrants aren't allowed to live here no, but the fact we dont know who and where they are means we cannot deport them. You are so quick to point to the European Union, but as ever, i'm still as interested as ever to know if you support a referendum on the European Union & Lisbon Treaty? - because we all know what the answer will be, people want control of this country, people want control of our borders and as in 1989 when the Soviet Union began its collapse, once people get their say and become fed up with people with agendas such as yours ruling them, the sooner it will all end.

The European Union makes over 75% of our laws, so no, the EU 'rubbish' I talk of isn't rubbish, thats why people like you (Labour and the European Union) are so afraid to give people a say on it, because the answer will be no.

The tories did destroy the unions, and thank heavens they did. If you want to return to the days of mass unemployment, the 3 day week, power cuts and the United Kingdom going cap-in-hand to the IMF then more fool you.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404715.stm

well done my friend
nicely owned there +rep[/QUOTE]

The questions you both still need to answer;

How are the United Kingdom Independance Party racist? (Ardemax & alex)
What did Robert Kilroy Silk say that was racist? (alex)
When do I link myself to the Daily Mail/Telegraph to prove my points? (alex)

[alexxxxx]

:rolleyes:
I will ask again..
How are UKIP racist?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404715.stm



Sorry, where and when do I link to the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph(?), if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd know I am against posting links from sources, because if I post from the Mail or Telegraph that would prove nothing and would of course be a biased source, just like if you linked me to the Guardian/a left wing/EU site it would also be biased.

Every pathetic thread you start in current topics links to a torygraph or mail source http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=605421 for example.

I rarely link to the guardian as it is, mostly, left wing. I link to official websites because they are the rules and it it's from the horses mouth. Those websites provide evidence of what they do and the rules. There's no bias in it, it is what it is.



The illegal immigrants aren't allowed to live here no, but the fact we dont know who and where they are means we cannot deport them. You are so quick to point to the European Union, but as ever, i'm still as interested as ever to know if you support a referendum on the European Union & Lisbon Treaty? - because we all know what the answer will be, people want control of this country, people want control of our borders and as in 1989 when the Soviet Union began its collapse, once people get their say and become fed up with people with agendas such as yours ruling them, the sooner it will all end.

I mentioned the EU because you seemed to make it sound like our membership had something to do with why we don't know how many are here, which is a complete irrelevance to the point you were making.



The European Union makes over 75% of our laws, so no, the EU 'rubbish' I talk of isn't rubbish, thats why people like you (Labour and the European Union) are so afraid to give people a say on it, because the answer will be no.

I've answered these pathetic arguments before.


The tories did destroy the unions, and thank heavens they did. If you want to return to the days of mass unemployment, the 3 day week, power cuts and the United Kingdom going cap-in-hand to the IMF then more fool you.

Did I say I wanted to go back to mass strikes?


The questions you both still need to answer;

How are the United Kingdom Independance Party racist? (Ardemax & alex)

I've told you why I think there are racists in the UKIP. I didn't actually say UKIP were racist itself.


What did Robert Kilroy Silk say that was racist? (alex)

Calling all arabs suicide bombers I'd say was racist. My arab cousins aren't suicide bombers.


When do I link myself to the Daily Mail/Telegraph to prove my points? (alex)

I never said you prove your points with telegraph or mail links, I just said that I think your sense of reality and perspective has been quashed by mainly/seuly reading these sources, which I believe to be true as, like i've already said, you start threads linking these at the beginning of threads in current affairs. You rarely back your points with sources ever.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Every pathetic thread you start in current topics links to a torygraph or mail source http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=605421 for example.

I rarely link to the guardian as it is, mostly, left wing. I link to official websites because they are the rules and it it's from the horses mouth. Those websites provide evidence of what they do and the rules. There's no bias in it, it is what it is.


I mentioned the EU because you seemed to make it sound like our membership had something to do with why we don't know how many are here, which is a complete irrelevance to the point you were making.


I've answered these pathetic arguments before.

Did I say I wanted to go back to mass strikes?

I've told you why I think there are racists in the UKIP. I didn't actually say UKIP were racist itself.

Calling all arabs suicide bombers I'd say was racist. My arab cousins aren't suicide bombers.

I never said you prove your points with telegraph or mail links, I just said that I think your sense of reality and perspective has been quashed by mainly/seuly reading these sources, which I believe to be true as, like i've already said, you start threads linking these at the beginning of threads in current affairs. You rarely back your points with sources ever.

..you stated I linked to the Mail/Telegraph to use in debates, I never ever link to them when debating an issue, I only use them as a news source/a starter, so again, caught out.

The European Union is linked to the issue as we have open borders apparentley, anyway thats what you seem to tell us is one of the benefits of the European Union; we cannot control who comes here to work/not work from the EU, all three main parties have accepted this sadly.

Indeed you have answered them, and you seem intent on driving the European Union down our throats, so while you may of answered them the British people still haven't answered it, we are waiting for our referendum because we have always valued democracy as a country.

You seem to think that the tories cutting down on the unions and their power was a bad thing, the way you worded it, so yes if you are critical of the Thatcher government then you do want to go back to those days which is a very sad outlook isn't it?.

UKIP can't be racist itself, its a party not a person, just like the BNP can't be racist, it cant think for itself - its an organisation. Infact here, in your exact words; "UKIP - Useless closet racists." - so I will ask yet again, what is racist about UKIP?

Robert Kilroy Silk did not call all arabs suicide bombers, if you can find a quote with him saying all arabs are suicide bombers then I would dearly love to see it. Infact what he did say was this, which certainly isn't racist; "We're told that the Arabs loathe us. Really? For liberating the Iraqis? For subsidising the lifestyles of people in Egypt (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Egypt) and Jordan (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Jordan), to name but two, for giving them vast amounts of aid? For providing them with science, medicine, technology and all the other benefits of the West? They should go down on their knees and thank God for the munificence of the United States. What do they think we feel about them? That we adore them for the way they murdered more than 3,000 civilians on 11 September 2001 (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/11_September_2001_attacks) and then danced in the hot, dusty streets to celebrate the murders? That we admire them for the cold-blooded killings in Mombasa (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/2002_Mombasa_attacks), Yemen (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Yemen) and elsewhere? That we admire them for being suicide bombers (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Suicide_bombing), limb-amputators (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Amputation), women repressors?'" - I managed to get an A in English GCSE, and as far as I can see, he does not say "all arabs" there, which again, shows you are making it up as you go along.

I'm afraid you did say I use sources such as the Daily Mail/Telegraph in my debate and that I, to quote "Well seeing as you link relentlessly to the telegraph and moreso to the daily fail" - so as you have now surely realised, what you said was not true and that I do not link relentlessly to the Daily Mail/Telegraph.

At the end of the day I can read from Sky News, the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph about any issues, such as how the European Union and this Labour government refuses to give the people of this country a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which it promised to do so, but i'll still believe the same, that this country was promised a referendum and it is being refused one because the government knows it will lose.

In these discussions, I always call for people to not use links to different sources, because eventually it turns into people posting me socialist/communist/guardian sources, which I could easily just post back Mail/Telegraphy or UKIP articles, but I don't; because I don't need the aid of the newspapers or political websites to form my own opinion.

The Daily Mail/Telegraph are popular because people agree with them, the European Union is unpopular because people don't agree with it - simple as that, theres no brainwashing by the newspapers or Rupert Murdoch with sinister business interests, you dont buy a house you dont like in the hope that it will grow on you, just like you dont buy a newspaper you dont agree with.

[alexxxxx]

..you stated I linked to the Mail/Telegraph to use in debates, I never ever link to them when debating an issue, I only use them as a news source/a starter, so again, caught out.

Did I ever say you used them as a source in a debate? No. Read what I wrote.



The European Union is linked to the issue as we have open borders apparentley, anyway thats what you seem to tell us is one of the benefits of the European Union; we cannot control who comes here to work/not work from the EU, all three main parties have accepted this sadly.

We don't have open borders. There is an enforced border between us and mainland Europe, there is not one with Ireland. But Ireland only has open borders with us. You obviously don't understand what an open or enforced border is.



You seem to think that the tories cutting down on the unions and their power was a bad thing, the way you worded it, so yes if you are critical of the Thatcher government then you do want to go back to those days which is a very sad outlook isn't it?.

Unions are not a bad thing per se, as they have achieved many important things in the fields of worker safety, fair pay and others. I've never said I want to go back to the days where strikes are everywhere. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to France, where even my Work Experience was cut short due to a strike.


UKIP can't be racist itself, its a party not a person, just like the BNP can't be racist, it cant think for itself - its an organisation. Infact here, in your exact words; "UKIP - Useless closet racists." - so I will ask yet again, what is racist about UKIP?

No, a party can be racist. The BNP is racist, in what it posts on it's website, I find particularly offensive, it's general direction. UKIP is not racist in what it says, nor is any of it's policies, however, a member can be a racist. I've never said that UKIP were racist.


Robert Kilroy Silk did not call all arabs suicide bombers, if you can find a quote with him saying all arabs are suicide bombers then I would dearly love to see it. Infact what he did say was this, which certainly isn't racist; "We're told that the Arabs loathe us. Really? For liberating the Iraqis? For subsidising the lifestyles of people in Egypt (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Egypt) and Jordan (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Jordan), to name but two, for giving them vast amounts of aid? For providing them with science, medicine, technology and all the other benefits of the West? They should go down on their knees and thank God for the munificence of the United States. What do they think we feel about them? That we adore them for the way they murdered more than 3,000 civilians on 11 September 2001 (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/11_September_2001_attacks) and then danced in the hot, dusty streets to celebrate the murders? That we admire them for the cold-blooded killings in Mombasa (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/2002_Mombasa_attacks), Yemen (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Yemen) and elsewhere? That we admire them for being suicide bombers (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Suicide_bombing), limb-amputators (http://www.habboxforum.com/wiki/Amputation), women repressors?'" - I managed to get an A in English GCSE, and as far as I can see, he does not say "all arabs" there, which again, shows you are making it up as you go along.
I still find what he wrote was unacceptable and racist. It's a generalisation.



I'm afraid you did say I use sources such as the Daily Mail/Telegraph in my debate and that I, to quote "Well seeing as you link relentlessly to the telegraph and moreso to the daily fail" - so as you have now surely realised, what you said was not true and that I do not link relentlessly to the Daily Mail/Telegraph.

That quote does not infer what you say it does. I've never said you use your links to back up your debates, in fact i've stated that you never do.



At the end of the day I can read from Sky News, the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph about any issues, such as how the European Union and this Labour government refuses to give the people of this country a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which it promised to do so, but i'll still believe the same, that this country was promised a referendum and it is being refused one because the government knows it will lose.

Irrelevant drivel.


In these discussions, I always call for people to not use links to different sources, because eventually it turns into people posting me socialist/communist/guardian sources, which I could easily just post back Mail/Telegraphy or UKIP articles, but I don't; because I don't need the aid of the newspapers or political websites to form my own opinion.

The Daily Mail/Telegraph are popular because people agree with them, the European Union is unpopular because people don't agree with it - simple as that, theres no brainwashing by the newspapers or Rupert Murdoch with sinister business interests, you dont buy a house you dont like in the hope that it will grow on you, just like you dont buy a newspaper you dont agree with.
What's this to do with the debate? You've driven off the fact that what you originally posted already happens, I've destroyed you over your accusation that the Guardian Newspaper carries adverts for non-jobs provided by the labour party, so it stays in business when the same thing happens at the Telegraph as the recruitment firm (or department) advertise in more than paper. You've been very quiet about that.

You can't accept that your closed mindedness, which is evident in your posts and link, has somehow hazed your view on reality, nor are you willing to engage in a debate that has to stay on topic and you have to push some rubbish right-wing agenda completely irrelevant to the original post. When faced with the facts, which contradict you inhibitions, you ignore, call it false, propaganda or all lies or come back with something stupidly irrelevant to take the original point away. I am as guilty as you in carrying on with these debates but that's because I'm intrigued in what you think about the world and to see a classic example of an outraged reader of particular right wing drivel. You're incredibly predictable. Almost everything you say comes down to the same point, with any sort of answer ignored. There are people like you up and down the land engineered by the press to become more and more outraged and less and less out of touch with reality so they can sell more and more. Each exclusive scandal written from half truths or story written on fabricated facts to get you all worked up and made to hate a particular group of people. You're a stereotype. A sad stereotype.

I truly don't care what you say about me, because I know I'm more capable of you in holding a decent debate. I hope what I said brought upon you some home truths and you can see how you can be seen this way.

[Black_Apalachi]

I was reading this debate in detail but the posts are getting way too long to bother now :P.


The immigration problem with the UK and France is interesting, you have to consider the ideas between the two countries. If we were France, we wouldn't want people in our country trying to go to another country who is denying them access. No-one will :/ I can see if and why France may not like immigrants heading towards us, and you can understand why we don't want immigrants here (well, some do some don't :P) There's no way to actually solve this problem :/

Anyway, to the point at hand... Having immigrants as soldiers is interesting... Because that would make them fear immigrating and would not necessarily cruel. Then again, that's assuming ALL immigrants are evil and useless...

Yeah but I still say it's France's problem. Maybe they should sort it out at the other end of the country where the immigrants are actually coming in. If they did what we are doing then the problem would be Italy's problem or whichever countries they're coming through.

As for using 'Immigrants should serve' as an empty threat to scare them away; that would be a good idea until it came to those who still decided to come over. In reality such a system would never be put into practice for various reasons.

[VirtualG]

No, just because they want to come to another country to improve their lives doesn't mean they should serve in the British army.

Plus, if any of these countries are similar to Turkey, you get forced to do the army for 2 years anyway. Training etc. My brother in law had to leave London to do it for 2 years a few years back. It's really stupid.
Why did you highlight British? Ok, one country I can think of off the top of my head like Turkey was Ukraine, and during World Wars, UK, Australia, New Zealand, America, etc...

Most people emmigrate to take advantage of wherever they're moving to, there wouldn't be much point in emmigrating otherwise. I think immigration should be controlled but your idea is impractical. As for "white country", Australia is founded on immigration, it's where we sent out convicts. The indigenous people are aborigines who, by nationalist logic, should be in control of the country. The same goes for native Americans in the USA.
Thats not immigration, as such, it was empire building...

if we didn't open our arms in world war 2, what would've happened to the immigrants? oh that's right, been killed.NSS, But thats very different cercumstances.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Did I ever say you used them as a source in a debate? No. Read what I wrote.


We don't have open borders. There is an enforced border between us and mainland Europe, there is not one with Ireland. But Ireland only has open borders with us. You obviously don't understand what an open or enforced border is.


Unions are not a bad thing per se, as they have achieved many important things in the fields of worker safety, fair pay and others. I've never said I want to go back to the days where strikes are everywhere. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to France, where even my Work Experience was cut short due to a strike.

No, a party can be racist. The BNP is racist, in what it posts on it's website, I find particularly offensive, it's general direction. UKIP is not racist in what it says, nor is any of it's policies, however, a member can be a racist. I've never said that UKIP were racist.

I still find what he wrote was unacceptable and racist. It's a generalisation.

That quote does not infer what you say it does. I've never said you use your links to back up your debates, in fact i've stated that you never do.


Irrelevant drivel.

What's this to do with the debate? You've driven off the fact that what you originally posted already happens, I've destroyed you over your accusation that the Guardian Newspaper carries adverts for non-jobs provided by the labour party, so it stays in business when the same thing happens at the Telegraph as the recruitment firm (or department) advertise in more than paper. You've been very quiet about that.

You can't accept that your closed mindedness, which is evident in your posts and link, has somehow hazed your view on reality, nor are you willing to engage in a debate that has to stay on topic and you have to push some rubbish right-wing agenda completely irrelevant to the original post. When faced with the facts, which contradict you inhibitions, you ignore, call it false, propaganda or all lies or come back with something stupidly irrelevant to take the original point away. I am as guilty as you in carrying on with these debates but that's because I'm intrigued in what you think about the world and to see a classic example of an outraged reader of particular right wing drivel. You're incredibly predictable. Almost everything you say comes down to the same point, with any sort of answer ignored. There are people like you up and down the land engineered by the press to become more and more outraged and less and less out of touch with reality so they can sell more and more. Each exclusive scandal written from half truths or story written on fabricated facts to get you all worked up and made to hate a particular group of people. You're a stereotype. A sad stereotype.

I truly don't care what you say about me, because I know I'm more capable of you in holding a decent debate. I hope what I said brought upon you some home truths and you can see how you can be seen this way.


You have just defeated your own argument, I just said and gave an example of how the European Union forcing the Republic of Ireland to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty is against my beliefs, whether reported on Sky News, BBC News, CNN or the Daily Mail - it doesn't matter, I can still see that is wrong and its the same with any issue, yet you time after time continue to blame the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and other best-selling right wing newspapers for everyone being against the European Union - perhaps once, just once, you could accept people don't agree with the European Union and do not want the police state Labour are forcing on this country.

You can read the Guardian and continue to wish for your European superstate which I know you cannot wait for; or you can accept that people do not want a centralised federal superstate ruling us, just as Europe did not want the Third Reich or the Soviet Union ruling them.

I will say again, if anyone disagrees with Labour, the Guardian, European Union or the left in general, they are either crazy right wingers, homophobes, xenophobes or racist, or all of them. You did say UKIP was racist and i'll quote it yet again, "UKIP - Useless closet racists." - because a party doesn't agree with full scale, uncontrolled immigration they are racist? - what a sad sterotypical, politically correct sterotype you are then, who would be perfectly suited to a job similar to those advertised in the Guardian, earning 30k+ a year of taxpayer money doing a useless non-job which benefits no one.

The issue over borders, I thought the whole point on being in the European Union was for economic reasons, and having polish migrants etc doing work in this country?, or does that not exist anymore because that does not suit your side anymore?.

You have basically admitted you made it up about Robert Kilroy Silk then, you call him a outright racist and claimed he said all arabs are suicide bombers, now you call it a generalisation when I actually look into it and find out the truth, that you have twisted what he said to make him look racist, when in fact he never said anything remotely racist.

You say its irrelevant drivel, well I have just proven that my opinions remain the same regardless of what news source posts it, so therefore you are basically covering your ears and refusing to accept that, and continue to bash on about how i'm under the thumb on the Daily Mail. The Guardian issue, the Guardian is subsidised by the government as proven by the number of government jobs advertised in there, and even so if the Telegraph is also being advertised in, how does a paper such as the Guardian manage to earn so much from advertisements yet is a little bought paper. It is like advertising in something very few people read, its a waste of time - but not if that money is subsidising the Guardian, which is it.

[GommeInc]

Yeah but I still say it's France's problem. Maybe they should sort it out at the other end of the country where the immigrants are actually coming in. If they did what we are doing then the problem would be Italy's problem or whichever countries they're coming through.

As for using 'Immigrants should serve' as an empty threat to scare them away; that would be a good idea until it came to those who still decided to come over. In reality such a system would never be put into practice for various reasons.
Indeed, but France can't really control all their borders and it does make you wonder why countries next to France can't just stop them entering, or the ones neighbouring the original country. Money is an issue, and as we have seen with the current economic climate, countries love money too much to go a flaunt it all on things like immigration, even though it would cost far too much and solve very little (unless they brought in tazers, which would be totally inethical).

Do you get the feeling we're sitting in the corner just talking amoungst ourselves? :P

Also, UKIP aren't racist - that's to those who keep saying that. They hated Robert Kilroysilk (or whatever his name was) and couldn't wait to see the back of him. They believe in letting immigrants in who will help, a dream difficult to achieve.


I still find what he wrote was unacceptable and racist. It's a generalisation.
It's common practice to generalise to put out a point, otherwise you'd have to consider each factor when the initial target that some Arab nationals did dance in the street and hail the fact loads of innocent people died. To save yourself from writing out a lecture to stop yourself from generalisation, you just don't say all. It's like saying Cadbury's chocolate is terrible, by saying "Cadbury's chocolate is horrible" when the caramel, fruit and nut and so forth could all be fine (not the best example, but there's a point in there somewhere :P).

[Ardemax]

sorry to be off topic, but some of these posts are getting a bit too long lol

you don't wanna be spending 30 mins to read a point lol

[-:Undertaker:-]

UKIP aren't racist, just have different views?

They have different views that are racist kthnx


sorry to be off topic, but some of these posts are getting a bit too long lol

you don't wanna be spending 30 mins to read a point lol

..and you say I troll. :P

You refuse point-blank time after time to answer my question, so i'll ask yet again; how are UKIP racist?

[MrPinkPanther]

UKIP is not racist. The BNP is racist. End of.

[Black_Apalachi]

UKIP is not racist. The BNP is racist. End of.

I was about to suggest, perhaps people are mixing up those two?

[Ardemax]

ye i fink i have

GORSH UNDERTAKER MIND CONTROLLING PPL :@

[VirtualG]

sorry to be off topic, but some of these posts are getting a bit too long lol

you don't wanna be spending 30 mins to read a point lol
Thats good, thats what we want.

[Blinger1]

no. just a simple one line answer will suffice :)

[nemesis9k]

The ROMAN EMPIRE collapsed when they started hiring foreigners to defend them from foreigners (barbarians). Just thought I would point that out to you lot.

[Ardemax]

The ROMAN EMPIRE collapsed when they started hiring foreigners to defend them from foreigners (barbarians). Just thought I would point that out to you lot.


mind you barbarians used to just run at anything fired at them, which is completely different to modern... oh yeah, i get your point

[Mickword]

Let them live there life, they have every right to be here as we do, we all have different parts of us, like from Germany, Russia, Ireland and so on, and that doesn't make us any different from each other. We are all one race and we should live like it. The world used to be one nation, Panjia I think it was called, so we are all just one race.

[AgnesIO]

I heard this very good statement the other day and no matter which country your from (Uk, Us, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc...) they all have immigration problems and the statement said, why not make all immigrants over 20 serve in the arm forces (not necesserialy fighting but maybe helping with other things such as working in the munitions departments...) whats your idea?


This is possibly the worlds, most stupid, ridiculous idea I hve heard.

Some immigrants are hard working citizens - 10x better than half the **** we have over here. I mean come off it? If you moved to a different country for a better life and then got told 'u gotta fite for us mayte.' You would leave.

[Nixt]

No. The British Army runs well as it is without forcing people to work for it. In fact it is why it runs so well, because the people that are there want to be there. That's why we have the best Army in the world..

[-:Undertaker:-]

Let them live there life, they have every right to be here as we do, we all have different parts of us, like from Germany, Russia, Ireland and so on, and that doesn't make us any different from each other. We are all one race and we should live like it. The world used to be one nation, Panjia I think it was called, so we are all just one race.

Humans were not around then and the British welfare system didn't exist - the world was a far different place to now.

[Mickword]

Yeah but as long as we are human does it matter?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yeah but as long as we are human does it matter?

Indeed it does matter.

Finance, well-being, personal well-being, quality of life, and public opinion all matters.

[Mickword]

I take that into consideration, but really you can't make people who do have a right to be here to help out the army, who is doing fine. Can you really.

[Jay.]

Nobody is going to come to UK to defend for our country now, are they?

I don't think they should be allowed in my opinion. Why exactly should immigrants come to the country then fight for us? It's not right. What if we go into war with someone, say Germany (random country) then a German person who is a solider for us, goes to war. They'd surely friendly fire?

[Ardemax]

Jay, im not being mean or anything, but i don't like people with the kind of opinion like yours.

The reason being is you think that immigrants just bring trouble? When actually, they work harder than a lot of people born here, they will put in more effort (usually) to stay here.

Maybe they're fleeing from a war in their country? Do you want to kill people by not letting them settle here?

Think about it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Jay, im not being mean or anything, but i don't like people with the kind of opinion like yours.

The reason being is you think that immigrants just bring trouble? When actually, they work harder than a lot of people born here, they will put in more effort (usually) to stay here.

Maybe they're fleeing from a war in their country? Do you want to kill people by not letting them settle here?

Think about it.

I know you and the left do not approve of common sense opinions, hence why you named UKIP racist and refuse to accept the BNP have a mandate from the electorate, and are therefore entitled to sit on Question Time. I have said before and I will say it again, anybody who does not agree with the left is labelled racist, homophobic or xenophobic and you have just proven it with what you have just stated above, you refuse to accept that people have other opinions to yours.

There are 150+ other states' in the world, why should the United Kingdom (which has crippling debts, a welfare system that can be abused and high crime rates) cater for the rest of the world. We tried to help Africa, the Middle East and Asia - but alas, they threw us out after we built them hospitals, roads, capitals and everything else.

[Ardemax]

im sorry but our efforts to "help" weren't "helping" as in giving resources, more like invading..

so you're calling me racist because i think BNP should not appear on question time?

i really dont get it? :S

[-:Undertaker:-]

im sorry but our efforts to "help" weren't "helping" as in giving resources, more like invading..

so you're calling me racist because i think BNP should not appear on question time?

i really dont get it? :S

I think you really need to take a look at history. The land the British Empire controlled was where nations never existed, and those that did exist there were constantly at war, using barbaric methods and the people lived in poverty, with no jobs or healthcare. We then came there, gave them capital cities, formed actual states with borders, and we used the stuff (oil, coal, minerals, steel, iron etc.) that they had been standing on for millions of years without knowing or even understanding what it could be used for, and we used it to our advantage and to thier advantage. In Africa under British rule, they had jobs, food, money and security. In post-colonial Africa we now have South Africa with mass unemployment, poverty and a massive surge in crime, in Zimbabwe we now have a dictator who not only murders white farmers, but his own people. In the rest of Africa and the Middle East, along with Burma and others we now have dictatorships which are constantly at war with eachother, no employment and no food.

I have no called you racist at all, would you like to point out where I have called you racist?

[Wig44.]

If we don't know that they are here, how can you put a number on it? :)

And they are clearly the rules, as defined by the relevant departments. Don't accept them, that's fine. You're just wrong.

Their have been educated guesses from across the board, if Labour knew this was false then they would of said so, but they dont. They are not rules, hence why we wouldn't have uncontrolled immigration to this country. These people do get benefits, this country would not turn someone away whos homeless and just arrived here with no shelter/money; why do you honestley think they travel across 20+ countries and the English Channel to come to the United Kingdom?

..what do people like you not understand, people here do not want uncontrolled immigration & do not want European Union yet you continue to force it down on us.[/QUOTE]

Complete idiot. If people are growing up with this mindset then I'm worried. It's a small minority that reject the EU, so stop pulling stuff like that out of your tail pipe. Of course no one wants uncontrolled immigration but leaving the EU is not the way to do it. Stop jumping on "Look at me I'm different and smart" bandwagons and try to figure out the world you live in before you bring your propaganda in here.

[Ardemax]

I have no called you racist at all, would you like to point out where I have called you racist?



I have said before and I will say it again, anybody who does not agree with the left is labelled racist, homophobic or xenophobic and you have just proven it with what you have just stated above, you refuse to accept that people have other opinions to yours

:love3:

[-:Undertaker:-]

Their have been educated guesses from across the board, if Labour knew this was false then they would of said so, but they dont. They are not rules, hence why we wouldn't have uncontrolled immigration to this country. These people do get benefits, this country would not turn someone away whos homeless and just arrived here with no shelter/money; why do you honestley think they travel across 20+ countries and the English Channel to come to the United Kingdom?

..what do people like you not understand, people here do not want uncontrolled immigration & do not want European Union yet you continue to force it down on us.

Complete idiot. If people are growing up with this mindset then I'm worried. It's a small minority that reject the EU, so stop pulling stuff like that out of your tail pipe. Of course no one wants uncontrolled immigration but leaving the EU is not the way to do it. Stop jumping on "Look at me I'm different and smart" bandwagons and try to figure out the world you live in before you bring your propaganda in here.[/QUOTE]

I'm an idiot for disagreeing with you? - yet again the left wing shows its true colours, and inability to accept that other people have different opinions to your own, just as the European Union refused to accept the Irish no vote, just as it refuses to accept the view of the Czech President without smearing him and threatening the Czech Republic, just like it refused to accept the votes of France and the Netherlands and just like our very own government refuses to accept people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Union itself.

The large majority do not want the European Union, hence why we are not given a referendum - why do you not understand this very simple fact? - you are so arrogant it is unreal. I am afraid leaving the European Union is the way to do it, as we cannot control properly immigration from eastern europe. My views are no different to the views on the public, hence why the two parties who represent views most similar to mine both came first and second in the European Paliamentary Elections 2009.

I have my own mind, can make my own choices and just because they do not reflect your views does not mean I have been indoctrinated by the Daily Mail or Telegraph, maybe it is time people stopped mentioning the Daily Mail and debate the issues as I am.

Ardemax - if you read that properly and had any grasp of the English language, you'd know that I am referring to you as the left, and that therefore I am not calling you racist at all.

[Wig44.]

I'm an idiot for disagreeing with you? - yet again the left wing shows its true colours, and inability to accept that other people have different opinions to your own, just as the European Union refused to accept the Irish no vote, just as it refuses to accept the view of the Czech President without smearing him and threatening the Czech Republic, just like it refused to accept the votes of France and the Netherlands and just like our very own government refuses to accept people want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Union itself.

The large majority do not want the European Union, hence why we are not given a referendum - why do you not understand this very simple fact? - you are so arrogant it is unreal. I am afraid leaving the European Union is the way to do it, as we cannot control properly immigration from eastern europe. My views are no different to the views on the public, hence why the two parties who represent views most similar to mine both came first and second in the European Paliamentary Elections 2009.

I have my own mind, can make my own choices and just because they do not reflect your views does not mean I have been indoctrinated by the Daily Mail or Telegraph, maybe it is time people stopped mentioning the Daily Mail and debate the issues as I am.

Ardemax - if you read that properly and had any grasp of the English language, you'd know that I am referring to you as the left, and that therefore I am not calling you racist at all.

I'm not the arrogant one - you are. I think it's arrogant that you judge me to be left wing, have I openly declared where I am? Just because I don't share your views on the EU I become left wing. Absolutely not. Do you truly believe we could eliminate illegal immigration by leaving the EU, becuase if you do you are deluded. We could reduce it yes, and if your argument is solely based on reducing immigration then yes, leaving the EU would be a step forward. But for the greater good of the UK leaving the EU is a stupid idea. For instance travelling anywhere in the EU would become harder, our economy would be hit far harder than before as the UK lacks to ability to sustain it's economy without the EU. Nobody should leave the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not the arrogant one - you are. I think it's arrogant that you judge me to be left wing, have I openly declared where I am? Just because I don't share your views on the EU I become left wing. Absolutely not. Do you truly believe we could eliminate illegal immigration by leaving the EU, becuase if you do you are deluded. We could reduce it yes, and if your argument is solely based on reducing immigration then yes, leaving the EU would be a step forward. But for the greater good of the UK leaving the EU is a stupid idea. For instance travelling anywhere in the EU would become harder, our economy would be hit far harder than before as the UK lacks to ability to sustain it's economy without the EU. Nobody should leave the EU.

I did not say you declared yourself left wing now did I? - maybe its time people stop putting words in my mouth for once. I merely have always thought, and still question how anybody could be right-wing yet support an organisation which is full of left wing failures such as Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock, Peter Mandelson and various others who have passed through Brussels and ended up with a nice fat pension at the end of it.

I did not say we could truly eliminate illegal immigration by leaving the European Union, however gaining back control of our own borders from the EU is a nessacery step and pulling away from the human rights regulations concerning illegal immigrants that the EU imposes on us is a nessecery step.

On the issue of travel around the European Union, we still have to show our passports when travelling around Europe, so much for free travel. On the economy, the EU has said itself that the UK is one of the worst economies in the EU and that the UK, Italy and Ireland are in most danger of basically going bankrupt. The rest of the world still trades fine, and their economies are in better shape than ours - and guess what? - they are not in the EU!

[DaveN]

live their life normally

if they've fled from Afghanistan or something, it would be stupid to send them back.
If they fled from persecution in their own country why didn't they stop in the first safe country they arrived in?

[Ardemax]

If they fled from persecution in their own country why didn't they stop in the first safe country they arrived in?


sometimes the safe country they come across is britain, as persecution comes in different forms...

[DaveN]

sometimes the safe country they come across is britain, as persecution comes in different forms...
Any EU country is considered safe, why continue to Britian?

[alexxxxx]

if anyone knows exactly what happens is that the uk border force works in france, catches illegal immigrants (not asylum seekers) but obviously has to give them to the french. The french being useless in this department let them go to try once more. These people can't claim UK asylum in France, they can only claim it once theyve made it to the UK. But obviously the majority of these illegals don't want to claim asylum they want to work in the UK illegally, which you can't do (legally) as an asylum seeker. Asylum seekers are not entitled to work and get very minimal benefits (lower than unemployment benefits) until they can be sent home. Failed asylum seekers are sent home with nothing. Legal immigrants with visas (usually) don't have access to public funds and have to support themselves until they apply for british citizenship.

Apart from exceptional circumstances, these immigrants need to have a job secured or be incredibly qualified (ie university degree and earning money in their old country) before being allowed in anyway.

[Ardemax]

Any EU country is considered safe, why continue to Britian?

I have to disagree.
Not all countries protect everyone from persecution.

[DaveN]

I have to disagree.
Not all countries protect everyone from persecution.
It is in the EU laws of membership, Each country has to provide protection to each citizen/immigrant to that country

[Ardemax]

It is in the EU laws of membership, Each country has to provide protection to each citizen/immigrant to that country

Not persecution from religions..

[DaveN]

Not persecution from religions..
Where in the EU does this happen?

[Ardemax]

Belarus to name one.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Any EU country is considered safe, why continue to Britian?

The oh-so-great European Union is controlled by the French and the Germans, and they couldn't give a toss to be quite frank about immigrants crossing their borders, because they all end up here eventually and we end up paying for them to be housed while their asylum is considered, their food, their plane flights and so on.

I couldn't blame the French, Germans or the rest of Europe, afterall its only the British taxpayer thats paying for it and any costs that France/Germany do encounter because of mass cross-border immigration can just be paid for by the United Kingdom and its large lump sum of cash we give the European Union every year.


I have to disagree.
Not all countries protect everyone from persecution.

It-is-not-our-problem.

[DaveN]

Belarus to name one.
Since when has Belarus been in the EU?