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Inseriousity.
24-04-2011, 09:50 PM
Hey!

So I study theology + education studies at uni and in the education studies part of the course, we had a debate about faith schools so I wondered what everyone else thought. Do you think faith schools should be part of the education system? Should the state pay for them? Should religious education be part of the national curriculum?

I know there are a lot of atheists on this forum so it'd be interesting to see what you think.

Hecktix
24-04-2011, 10:23 PM
I love the faith school debate :D. I am an atheist, just to get that out there before I start.

There are a lot of questions in there Mike so I'm going to try and answer most of them however I just wanted to pick out the last thing you mention, the debate of whether religious education should be part of the national curriculum - the answer to this is yes. I imagine a lot of people will disagree with me there however read what I have to say, in this part I am talking about religious education in normal, state schools - not in faith schools. Religious Education in my eyes should be compulsory as if it is taught correctly - what do I mean by taught correctly? Well I'll give various examples of what I have experienced in Religious Education through secondary school and further education. To start with, in secondary school I went through about 10 different Religious Studies teachers - why? Because the school didn't think it was important and hired anybody with any kind of teaching degree to teach it. I think there are three kinds of religious studies teachers:

1) Religious, Religious Studies Teacher
In my eyes people of faith should be banned from teaching Religious Studies because they have a bias. Religious studies in my eyes is about opening the eyes of youngsters to different cultures and religions in the world and it is absolutely fascinating. If a teacher is religious, it's more than likely that Religious Education is going to turn into you being preached to - I've seen it happen, I've had religious education lessons like church services - not good. Similarly however a strong-minded atheist shouldn't teach religious studies either, as they would also be too biased. Religious studies needs to be taught by someone open minded.

2) A religious studies teacher who took a job teaching religious studies because there are no jobs available in their area teaching their subject
This, is the most common kind of religious studies teacher. Most schools don't care about religious studies so will hire anybody to teach it no matter what their core degree is in as long as they have a teaching qualification, so you end up with most of these kinds of teachers not really caring about the subject and teaching it awfully. Not good.

3) Open minded religious studies teacher
The only kind that works, you need a religious studies teacher who can take you on the journey of exploring religion. I don't think that any school pupil could say that religion isn't interesting to explore if they had a good religious studies teacher.

Religious studies for me, opened up my views of the world, and this is why religious studies should be on the national curriculum and taken seriously.

So, on to state funded faith schools. I agree with them. The main reason for this is because I believe that education for everybody is very individual, we all have our own learning styles, we all have our own behavioural styles and we all have our own morals and values. Naturally, the best thing to do would be to have your own school and education system tailored to suit you as an individual however this is obviously not plausible, however I think grouping schools on the basis of moral values (particularly secondary school) is probably a good idea and can cater for religious children quite well. The problem I find, is parents sending their children to religious schools purely because it gets good grades. I strongly believe that children should only be sent to faith schools if their family practice that faith, otherwise the faith school is utterly pointless.

Obviously, there's an issue here when you think of faith primary schools as there's the argument that the children aren't old enough to decide whether they want to be religious, however I think it's perfectly acceptable for a religious family to bring up their child as religious and send them to a faith school - however should a child wish to not be part of that faith when they reach adolescence, this should be their choice too.

Faith schools run properly, with pupils that are actually religious run very well and get very good results, however I think they are abused by parents wishing their children to go to faith schools when the family arent religious, because the only reasons they send them is stuff like they will mix with "better" children (in terms of moral values) and may get better grades - this is wrong.

Technologic
24-04-2011, 10:32 PM
As long as they follow the rules i don't really give a hoot about them

-:Undertaker:-
24-04-2011, 10:46 PM
I think this article (http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2010/01/those-church-schools-again.html) on Church schools (lets be honest and call them that, because those are what we are talking about) is pretty much spot on. Education based on selection works, unlike the comprehensive system of which East Germany ditched in favour of the grammar schools the moment the Berlin wall came down although sadly here in Britain we are stuck with them. I think selection based on faith is perfectly fine and works for many, just as selection based on knowledge is also a sound idea which worked in the past before the vast majority of Grammars were torn down.

If the state is to fund education, the state should fund Church schools along with grammars - its the comprehensives which are the problem, the attacks on the remaining grammars and Church schools are unfounded and are only being dished out in order to complete the destruction of the 1960s.


Faith schools run properly, with pupils that are actually religious run very well and get very good results, however I think they are abused by parents wishing their children to go to faith schools when the family arent religious, because the only reasons they send them is stuff like they will mix with "better" children (in terms of moral values) and may get better grades - this is wrong.

Indeed I agree, afterall many of the pro-comprehensive left wing politicians send their children to church schools in order to avoid sending their children to the comprehensives in which they force the rest of the population to send their children to attend (the wealthy are exempt from this). The list includes David Miliband, Antony Blair, Harriet Harman and David Cameron along with many more former and current frontbenchers.

Selection works, thats why the politicians pick it for their own children.

Conservative,
25-04-2011, 12:21 AM
1) Religious, Religious Studies Teacher
In my eyes people of faith should be banned from teaching Religious Studies because they have a bias. Religious studies in my eyes is about opening the eyes of youngsters to different cultures and religions in the world and it is absolutely fascinating. If a teacher is religious, it's more than likely that Religious Education is going to turn into you being preached to - I've seen it happen, I've had religious education lessons like church services - not good. Similarly however a strong-minded atheist shouldn't teach religious studies either, as they would also be too biased. Religious studies needs to be taught by someone open minded.

I disagree. My first religious studies teacher was a devout Christian. My 2nd an atheist. The first taught the subject with passion. Even with the other faiths - she taught us in-depth analysis of each religion, explained them to us, why they believed what they did etc. Because she had her own views, it made it interesting. She was open minded, but she was also Christian. She often went back to comparing different Religions to each other and their positives and negatives, leaving us to choose what we wanted to believe. She didn't cram Christianity down our necks like you seem to be implying.
However my 2nd teacher was rather different. He - being an atheist - told us from the start he didn't follow any of the religions. This resulted in boring lessons because he didn't believe what he was telling us. He couldn't give us valuable analysis on why particular religions held certain beliefs because he wasn't interested - he didn't believe them.


2) A religious studies teacher who took a job teaching religious studies because there are no jobs available in their area teaching their subject
This, is the most common kind of religious studies teacher. Most schools don't care about religious studies so will hire anybody to teach it no matter what their core degree is in as long as they have a teaching qualification, so you end up with most of these kinds of teachers not really caring about the subject and teaching it awfully. Not good.
This is something I don't think anyone can actually say with basis unless they have been to numerous schools and checked it. It is most likely different school to school. My school hires religious studies teachers for religious studies only (although there are a few history teachers who teach RS to Year 7s). But in my school the teachers are normally those with philosophy or similar degrees. Whether this is the same in other schools I don't know, but I don't think you can say that all schools have teachers who aren't qualified because how many schools have you been to Oli?


3) Open minded religious studies teacher
The only kind that works, you need a religious studies teacher who can take you on the journey of exploring religion. I don't think that any school pupil could say that religion isn't interesting to explore if they had a good religious studies teacher.
Agreed with this. Religious studies needs to be interesting, but I feel the teacher needs to be able to put their own opinion into it - without cramming a particular belief down the students' necks or it ruins it. The students need to be able to make up their own mind as well.


Religious studies for me, opened up my views of the world, and this is why religious studies should be on the national curriculum and taken seriously.
Again agree, I didn't really know about other religions before doing Religious Studies and it made me realise not everyone had the same beliefs as me, even within the same Religion. So I think it is important.


So, on to state funded faith schools. I agree with them. The main reason for this is because I believe that education for everybody is very individual, we all have our own learning styles, we all have our own behavioural styles and we all have our own morals and values. Naturally, the best thing to do would be to have your own school and education system tailored to suit you as an individual however this is obviously not plausible, however I think grouping schools on the basis of moral values (particularly secondary school) is probably a good idea and can cater for religious children quite well. The problem I find, is parents sending their children to religious schools purely because it gets good grades. I strongly believe that children should only be sent to faith schools if their family practice that faith, otherwise the faith school is utterly pointless.

Obviously, there's an issue here when you think of faith primary schools as there's the argument that the children aren't old enough to decide whether they want to be religious, however I think it's perfectly acceptable for a religious family to bring up their child as religious and send them to a faith school - however should a child wish to not be part of that faith when they reach adolescence, this should be their choice too.

Faith schools run properly, with pupils that are actually religious run very well and get very good results, however I think they are abused by parents wishing their children to go to faith schools when the family arent religious, because the only reasons they send them is stuff like they will mix with "better" children (in terms of moral values) and may get better grades - this is wrong.

Essentially I agree. Faith run schools do attain good results and they can be the best type of education if you are religious and are going to integrate into the school community. However I think that whether they should be state run or not is another thing. I honestly haven't decided my position on this yet but I think that is it really right to use taxpayer's money - who may not be religious - to pay for religious schools?

And I also agree that they shouldn't be abused by people just trying to get some morals and better grades into their kids without care for the religious implications - but what can they do to stop them?

Hecktix
25-04-2011, 12:36 AM
I disagree. My first religious studies teacher was a devout Christian. My 2nd an atheist. The first taught the subject with passion. Even with the other faiths - she taught us in-depth analysis of each religion, explained them to us, why they believed what they did etc. Because she had her own views, it made it interesting. She was open minded, but she was also Christian. She often went back to comparing different Religions to each other and their positives and negatives, leaving us to choose what we wanted to believe. She didn't cram Christianity down our necks like you seem to be implying.
However my 2nd teacher was rather different. He - being an atheist - told us from the start he didn't follow any of the religions. This resulted in boring lessons because he didn't believe what he was telling us. He couldn't give us valuable analysis on why particular religions held certain beliefs because he wasn't interested - he didn't believe them.

If you read it properly, I did say it's not always the case but a lot of the time from situations I have heard of/witnessed/read about (I have read a lot of educational research into such things) strictly religious/strictly atheist teachers do not make good religious studies teachers.



This is something I don't think anyone can actually say with basis unless they have been to numerous schools and checked it. It is most likely different school to school. My school hires religious studies teachers for religious studies only (although there are a few history teachers who teach RS to Year 7s). But in my school the teachers are normally those with philosophy or similar degrees. Whether this is the same in other schools I don't know, but I don't think you can say that all schools have teachers who aren't qualified because how many schools have you been to Oli?

Unfortunately robbie, it's a fact that a lot of schools disregard religious studies and this is why it's not so prominant on the national curriculum, of course some schools will hire religious studies teachers with the correct qualifications however it's also fact that another reason religious studies is put to the side is that because it's only in the few decades or so become what we know religous studies to be. If you ask the older people in your families what they thought to religious studies lessons (if they aren't religious) they'll just say something like "bible bashing" - my dad thought religious studies was reading the bible as that's what he had to do at school, because of this there aren't many religious studies teachers out there because religious studies 20 years ago wasn't what it's become now, it's fact there are a lack of qualified religious studies teachers, I have worked amongst teachers for the past 3 years and recently I worked with a woman who is a head teacher at a Primary School who's degree was in Religion & Philosophy and she told me that she worked as a religious studies teacher in secondary schools all over the UK for 15 years and too many schools disregard it as a proper subject because they cannot get teachers with the proper qualifications for religious studies and enthusiasm, however nowadays more and more people are taking religious studies further and there is a new generation of religious studies forming and that is what I believe some of us are lucky enough to experience today. It's a wonderful subject, when taught properly but a lot of bad press and it being taught incorrectly over previous generations has delayed it's kick-start.

-Soph-
25-04-2011, 04:29 AM
As staunchly atheistic as I am, it ought not be scrapped from the curriculum.
It just needs to be taught in an historical sense, not factually. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to teach the subject if you're a devout member of a specific faith, you just need to realize that you need to be open minded and teach objectively, however hard it may be. Religion can be fascinating, and it's vital to expose children to a vast spectrum of them, or else we're going to end up with a generation who believe that Muslims are out to kill us all, atheists lack a moral compass, and so on, of course none of which has a lick of truth to it.

My issue with faith schools is that the material's often not taught objectively, you have creationism in the science classroom, young earth "theories" batting around, amongst others, taught to children whose brain at this point of development is tantamount to a sponge, and it concerns me how easily brain washing can occur, this ought not be funded by the government.
Religious education classes differ from a curriculum based around a specific deity, the former deserves funding, the latter absolutely doesn't.

Not a predominantly American forum, but the Constitution forbids intertwining government and religion excessively (the Lemon Test), and it's always seemed like a good rule of thumb to me.

.x.miss.angel.x
25-04-2011, 05:30 PM
If we are talking about Church of England Schools then, boy did I go to one. One thing, it was an amazing school, high grades, oustanding by oftsted, no children were THAT naughty, and no shouting out. They must have diciplined young children rather well (I would not know, i went private for all of infants) , although not many of them carried on with the good behaviour in highschool.

Only problem, we got a new headteacher when i was in year 5 and he was extremly religeious, but he was a very nice man so luckily he was one of those firm and kind believers since I knew some nasty, yet extremly religeous children when I was there. He began to call Assembly 'Worship', we went to Church quite a few times, and every Ash Wednesday in Lent. All we would hear about in 'worship' was about the bible, jesus and god. That may have been ok for religeous students, but I myself am not very religeous and it was slightly on the verge of an obsessive faith school by the end of year six, no idea what it is like now, but most likely the school has proberbly become more religeous.

Also we did not do much RE, most likely the same as other schools. We mainly did English & maths, Science a few times a week, Geography/History once a week, and RE if we were lucky enough to have time, but when we did, we did have alot of resources, our teachers were also just the teacher we were with all day.

Really, it was just another primary school, with a religeous head teacher and good grades! But at the end of the day, all that counts is that we understand other religeons, support them and good grades and manners.

In answer to the questions, Yes I do think the faith schools should be paid for and supported beacause most of the faith schools have good grades, good children and overall nice people in them, which should set an example to the struggling schools!

luce
25-04-2011, 08:03 PM
1) Religious, Religious Studies Teacher
In my eyes people of faith should be banned from teaching Religious Studies because they have a bias.

yeah i realize you say it isn't always the case but i would just like to say the reason i continued with RS through to A level was because of a Christian RS teacher who was actually less bias than the atheist that taught me before. She was more passionately and dogmatically atheist and made it painfully apparent to the point where it affected her objectivity of teaching however the Christian was the best RS teacher i have ever met because he had a passion for the subject.

Also on what you said about teachers doing the job because there is none around - my RS department is one of the best there is. I know I go to a Grammar school (yes we have the 11+ system still) so we can afford to be picky but the HoD says no to anyone who doesn't meet the mark and there is a very high mark. There is not one teacher who you would say "oh damn i've got them they're rubbish" so much so i got 100% GCSE and 100% in my first AS philosophy module. Yes it's not all down to teaching but it's a massive part of it!


Onto faith schools. Yes i agree with them however I do not think the state should be obliged to provide faith schools for any other religion other than main stream christianity. why, because the united kingdom is a Christian country. Controversial maybe but I do not see one valid reason why Muslims, seeks etc should claim the right to the schools on the ground on religious freedom/discrimination. Yes you have religious freedom but you can be freely Muslim without having a school, also it's not discrimination because under the new open schools system the government are trying to push through religious schools can be set up but not state funded. Also even if this wasn't the case it's not discrimination as if you move to this country you know what you are coming to, you should adjust to the lifestyle of this country not this country to you - if that means going to a non-religious school then so be it.

Celacia
25-05-2011, 08:32 AM
As long as your academic courses meet state standards and you test well on state proficiency tests, I don't see why faith schools shouldn't be allowed to coexist with non-faith schools.

However, I strongly believe the parents shouldn't force theology upon their children.

These types of schools don't usually test the best in the state for science if you know what I mean.

GirlNextDoor15
01-06-2011, 02:34 AM
I need not quote anybody because Hecktix already said whatever I wanted to say in this debate lol

Edited by Infectious (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not make pointless posts.

Charlottay!
01-06-2011, 04:34 PM
I went to a Faith school and tbh i do agree with them (might be a lil biased)

The school i went to was for Catholics yet a large majority of the students attending weren't catholic or religious. There is a certain moral ethic behind faith schools that seems to be instilled into the students more. Some of my friends from other schools have said that religious schools are more stricter in terms or rule breaking, uniform and general conduct.

My religious studies lessons covered several religions, since it is a course and the entire curriculum on the course needs to be taught so that cannot be biased to one religion. However I think at my school it was a requirement that to be catholic to teach R.E.

My future brother in law is an R.E teacher but is an atheist in a normal school. He doesnt believe in god but finds the different religious views fascinating . (his degree is philosophy though)

I do agree with Oli's statement completely though.


Faith schools run properly, with pupils that are actually religious run very well and get very good results, however I think they are abused by parents wishing their children to go to faith schools when the family arent religious, because the only reasons they send them is stuff like they will mix with "better" children (in terms of moral values) and may get better grades - this is wrong.

Wig44.
01-06-2011, 05:43 PM
Faith schools are wrong because of:

Segregation
Indoctrination

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