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View Full Version : Do you think you are born gay or it is a lifestyle?



peteyt
26-10-2011, 04:32 AM
I'm a straight male, but once had an argument with someone who believed that gay's are born gay.

Now I can see it from both sides, but I've always believed its a choice. Some people prefer the opposite sex and some people prefer the same sex. To me its like, I like some food e.g. Venison that some people hate. They don't like it by choice, they weren't simply born like that.

Now a lot of people will say it runs in the family and will effect certain people. For example I have a cousin who is gay and his uncle, his dad's brother also is gay. Some people think it's in the genes or something, but I highly disagree. I think that that's actually far from the truth.

What is interesting is I remember when I was young at school, and I mean real young, the whole gay idea was thought to be wrong and people would use the whole you dropped your gay card gag to see who actually looked down. To me people like my cousin aren't born gay, they are simply born around gay's and interact with them from an early age and so due to that they gain a different understanding to what others might think and perceive of them.

Now I hope this next part doesn't come across as wrong as it certainty isn't meant to. I kind of wonder if the whole idea of people being born gay is wrong, because to me it makes it sound like a disease. If I was to be a homophobic who believed people where born gay, I may also believe because they where born gay from a gene or something, it was a disease and one that was curable. While as to me it's far from that, it's the mind, its how you feel emotionally. When you fall for a girl, you may have sexual attractions to her, but there's often other stuff, small stuff, that you love, that's nothing to do with that. That comes from you both, nothing written in the body.

But I don't hate people for thinking the opposite, I just don't believe it myself. Let me know what you think. I want to know what gays actually think, do you think you where born gay?

Thread moved by Infectious (Forum Super Moderator): From "Discuss Anything", as it is better suited here!

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 04:57 AM
I believe its some sort of genetic/body defection of some sort, its certainly not a choice however it is a choice to partake in it. I will probably add to this more once more people have commented on it, because we will no doubt have the usual nonsense of the Kinsey scale posted which, apparently, means everyone is homosexual (even if they don't know it themselves!) fancy that.

FlyingJesus
26-10-2011, 01:35 PM
It's neither a lifestyle nor an innate genetic trait. I believe that just like any other sexual preference it is something that develops (for whatever spectrum of reasons) through one's life. It's not a matter of choice any more than I "choose" to prefer my partners to be a certain way or "choose" to like different foods or music or anything else that's a preference.

GirlNextDoor15
26-10-2011, 02:01 PM
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone was born gay. I think that'll be the last thing you'll say when someone questions you about your sexuality preference. How can one be born gay? It doesn't make sense to me. It should be how that someone is influenced by the environment including.. people of course.

Judas
26-10-2011, 02:03 PM
i don't really know if you are born gay, i'm kind of on the fence about that. but i definitely disagree with you saying that it is a choice, i've read a lot about people not wanting to be gay (because of homophobia they have/will face, and the idea that it is wrong to be gay), you can't just wake up one day and decide that now you like girls/boys.

i think what tom said is more likely, that it develops.

it's confusing though, and also really fascinating. i don't think that question will ever be answered though


It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone was born gay. I think that'll be the last thing you'll say when someone questions you about your sexuality preference. How can one be born gay? It doesn't make sense to me. It should be how that someone is influenced by the environment including.. people of course.

why though? why does straight have to be the default setting?

GirlNextDoor15
26-10-2011, 02:12 PM
why though? why does straight have to be the default setting?

From what I know, that's just how it is. I don't think children who knows how to talk will straight away say they're gay? For example, you're a male and I'm a female. Males and females have their own specific traits.

Judas
26-10-2011, 02:16 PM
From what I know, that's just how it is. I don't think children who knows how to talk will straight away say they're gay? For example, you're a male and I'm a female. Males and females have their own specific traits.

Yeah, they don't know how to talk... So how can they tell you they're straight as well?

But obviously young children don't even understand sexual orientation though. I remember being reaaaally young, before I ever went to school, and being attracted to both men and women. Obviously it wasn't until much later on that I realised I was attracted to them, because I didn't understand. But I was...

GirlNextDoor15
26-10-2011, 02:22 PM
Yeah, they don't know how to talk... So how can they tell you they're straight as well?

But obviously young children don't even understand sexual orientation though. I remember being reaaaally young, before I ever went to school, and being attracted to both men and women. Obviously it wasn't until much later on that I realised I was attracted to them, because I didn't understand. But I was...

Ok. They might not tell you they're straight but can they tell you that they are gay?
If children don't know what is sexual orientation, then will they know what does 'gay' mean? Or they will eventually know after being exposed to those things and then, decide what they really attracted to. They'll be influenced by then.

Judas
26-10-2011, 02:27 PM
Ok. They might not tell you they're straight but can they tell you that they are gay?
If children don't know what is sexual orientation, then will they know what does 'gay' mean? Or they will eventually know after being exposed to those things and then, decide what they really attracted to. They'll be influenced by then.

just because you don't know what it means, it doesn't mean you can't be gay/straight/bi. like i said, i remember finding both men and women attractive when i was really young, as in 2/3 years old. but i didn't really understand what i was feeling or care too much either. but it wasn't until many years later that i realised i had been bisexual for as long as i can remember.

they won't understand sexual orientation at all, so they won't even know what 'straight' means.

i discovered the meaning of 'gay' before 'straight' lol

GirlNextDoor15
26-10-2011, 02:38 PM
just because you don't know what it means, it doesn't mean you can't be gay/straight/bi. like i said, i remember finding both men and women attractive when i was really young, as in 2/3 years old. but i didn't really understand what i was feeling or care too much either. but it wasn't until many years later that i realised i had been bisexual for as long as i can remember.

they won't understand sexual orientation at all, so they won't even know what 'straight' means.

i discovered the meaning of 'gay' before 'straight' lol

Well, that's what you feel. But, they cannot be born gay. It's not a talent or whatsoever. It's just how you feel and what you like after years and years of gaining experiences (with sex and stuff). Some of the 'gay' people just find it cool to say that they're gay since there's a lot of gay people standing up for themselves at this time.

peteyt
26-10-2011, 03:06 PM
i don't really know if you are born gay, i'm kind of on the fence about that. but i definitely disagree with you saying that it is a choice, i've read a lot about people not wanting to be gay (because of homophobia they have/will face, and the idea that it is wrong to be gay), you can't just wake up one day and decide that now you like girls/boys.

i think what tom said is more likely, that it develops.

it's confusing though, and also really fascinating. i don't think that question will ever be answered though



why though? why does straight have to be the default setting?

Being gay and hating being gay are two different things.

It is a personal choice in my opinion really. Some people prefer the oppisite sex some people prefer the same sex. This obviously can be influenced by different factors e.g. having a gay friend, gay member in your family, having some kind of gay experience. But some people are straight to begin with well in their opinion and just have a drunken experience and actually realise they liked it. While as some claim they knew from early on. A female at my school said she knew from about 2-3 but I find it hard to believe and I cant remember much of then anyway's. I do know I was more interested in being my age and didn't really see people in the way I would today.

You mention people not wanting to be gay. To me that's like liking something, knowing you do and trying to fight it. I like chocolate, I could say oh I don't like it but I do. I think that the people who do turn gay and fight and deny it usually only do because of its connotations. They deep down probably want to be gay, but don't want the prejudice and don't know how people will take it. I remember someone upset once because he thought he was gay, but also religious and hated the idea of being gay. I think maybe deep down he wanted to be gay, wishing he could be accepted.

Judas
26-10-2011, 03:46 PM
Well, that's what you feel. But, they cannot be born gay. It's not a talent or whatsoever. It's just how you feel and what you like after years and years of gaining experiences (with sex and stuff). Some of the 'gay' people just find it cool to say that they're gay since there's a lot of gay people standing up for themselves at this time.

And the evidence you have to back up these facts is what?

I respect your opinion but don't tell me things like they are absolutely true. And why assume that some people pretend to be gay to act cool? That is such a cynical thing to say that is so irrelevant to this question, that some may be offended by :rolleyes:


Being gay and hating being gay are two different things.

It is a personal choice in my opinion really. Some people prefer the oppisite sex some people prefer the same sex. This obviously can be influenced by different factors e.g. having a gay friend, gay member in your family, having some kind of gay experience. But some people are straight to begin with well in their opinion and just have a drunken experience and actually realise they liked it. While as some claim they knew from early on. A female at my school said she knew from about 2-3 but I find it hard to believe and I cant remember much of then anyway's. I do know I was more interested in being my age and didn't really see people in the way I would today.

You mention people not wanting to be gay. To me that's like liking something, knowing you do and trying to fight it. I like chocolate, I could say oh I don't like it but I do. I think that the people who do turn gay and fight and deny it usually only do because of its connotations. They deep down probably want to be gay, but don't want the prejudice and don't know how people will take it. I remember someone upset once because he thought he was gay, but also religious and hated the idea of being gay. I think maybe deep down he wanted to be gay, wishing he could be accepted.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but you said it yourself (bolded parts I'm talking about).

You can't choose to not be gay. If you like boys or girls - you do. You just do. You can't change your way of thinking. However you can choose to pretend to not be, and put on a front and "be" straight, but at the end of the day, you are just a closet gay.

You can choose to just not tell anyone and pretend you're straight, and that's a choice that someone may make for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, if you're gay - then you're gay.

beth
26-10-2011, 04:01 PM
Well, that's what you feel. But, they cannot be born gay. It's not a talent or whatsoever. It's just how you feel and what you like after years and years of gaining experiences (with sex and stuff). Some of the 'gay' people just find it cool to say that they're gay since there's a lot of gay people standing up for themselves at this time.

i think the parts bolded are incredibly offensive, sure i'm gonna get another -rep from you from voicing an opinion (and what you say is an opinion, it's not fact) different to yours, but whatever. not a talent? whoever said having a sexuality was a talent. and the second point is just... "some of the gay people" they're not a seperate breed from you, they're still humans and A LOT of the gay people i know would prefer to be straight as they feel they'd have one less hassle in their life. and of course they're gonna stand up for themselves, even in the 21st century homophobia is ripe. and yr kinda proving it here, the way you are talking is borderline homophobic and it's not even intentional i believe. it's just because you have no knowledge of homosexuality.

personally i think it's just something that happens, it's not a choice nor did you fall out of yr mom and go hiya i'm gay. it's just something that happens over time. like i don't like mushrooms, gay men don't like girls. i think there are people who are homosexual because they've had traumatic experiences with members of the opposite sex when they were developing. you hear stories of girls being abused by their father and then turning to women for support and trust, but obviously this isn't always the case. i don't think it's nature or nurture, i don't want to use the word FATE. but i don't know how to describe something that just happens.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 04:19 PM
i think the parts bolded are incredibly offensive, sure i'm gonna get another -rep from you from voicing an opinion (and what you say is an opinion, it's not fact) different to yours, but whatever. not a talent? whoever said having a sexuality was a talent. and the second point is just... "some of the gay people" they're not a seperate breed from you, they're still humans and A LOT of the gay people i know would prefer to be straight as they feel they'd have one less hassle in their life. and of course they're gonna stand up for themselves, even in the 21st century homophobia is ripe. and yr kinda proving it here, the way you are talking is borderline homophobic and it's not even intentional i believe. it's just because you have no knowledge of homosexuality.

GirlNextDoor15 has not voiced any fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, there is no homophobia at all in her post. At that, she has not even expressed any dislike (which is not homophobia, see above) towards homosexuality or homosexuals in general, rather towards the culture that surrounds the issue ... And you have just added to that culture, the idea that homosexuality is above all criticism.


It's not a talent or whatsoever. It's just how you feel and what you like after years and years of gaining experiences (with sex and stuff). Some of the 'gay' people just find it cool to say that they're gay since there's a lot of gay people standing up for themselves at this time.

Indeed, this is correct. We only have to look at gay 'pride' marches (which our shameful councils pay for) when most people actually find them repulsive, cringeworthy and flaunty for a variety of reasons from the message to the theme. We only have to look at the propaganda in schools, not just preaching just tolerance anymore (which is not the place of schools anyway) but actually teaching 'acceptance' which I find a sinister hint of Orwell's 1984 within. We also have the cult of the likes of Lady Gaga and the usual 'baby I was born this way' rubbish that we have to put up with whenever homosexuality is brought up, which, sadly, closes any rational debate on the subject down.

There is nothing homophobic nor have you shown any hatred or dislike of homosexuals in your post. Even if you had shown a dislike of homosexuality or even a fear (personally i've never come across a fear of homosexuals so I don't see why its being mentioned so often) then you are perfectly entitled to do so.

Judas
26-10-2011, 04:42 PM
GirlNextDoor15 has not voiced any fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, there is no homophobia at all in her post. At that, she has not even expressed any dislike (which is not homophobia, see above) towards homosexuality or homosexuals in general, rather towards the culture that surrounds the issue ... And you have just added to that culture, the idea that homosexuality is above all criticism.

That's why Beth said "borderline", she never actually called her a homophobe.

And we've been through this time and time again so I know this is a waste of time but the meaning of homophobia is not just a "fear" of homosexuals, it can also be a dislike etc. You know full well what she means, so for the sake of the argument can't you just drop it? Whenever a discussion like this comes up you choose to focus on that to ignore the other (very valid) points that are being made.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 04:47 PM
That's why Beth said "borderline", she never actually called her a homophobe.

And we've been through this time and time again so I know this is a waste of time but the meaning of homophobia is not just a "fear" of homosexuals, it can also be a dislike etc. You know full well what she means, so for the sake of the argument can't you just drop it? Whenever a discussion like this comes up you choose to focus on that to ignore the other (very valid) points that are being made.

Because I find attempts to label opinions as mental ******ation as downright disrespectful and are intended on shutting down debate on this topic.

Judas
26-10-2011, 04:47 PM
Because I find attempts to label opinions as mental ******ation as downright disrespectful and are intended on shutting down debate on this topic.

... who did that?

FlyingJesus
26-10-2011, 04:48 PM
Dan if you're gonna keep pulling out the "phobia is a fear!!!!!" strategy whenever this topic is raised then you should just give up now, seeing as how the definition of phobia does not just cover irrational fears, but also irrational dislikes and criticisms. Perhaps you ought to actually look into an issue before commenting on it in future.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 04:51 PM
... who did that?

Those bringing up 'homophobia' here, classing those who object to/dislike homosexuality as homophobic.


Dan if you're gonna keep pulling out the "phobia is a fear!!!!!" strategy whenever this topic is raised then you should just give up now, seeing as how the definition of phobia does not just cover irrational fears, but also irrational dislikes and criticisms. Perhaps you ought to actually look into an issue before commenting on it in future.

A phobia is an irrational fear, the word has been hijacked and i'm not going to stand for it anymore, just as I will not stand for being called a 'racist' when discussing mass immigration or being labeled an xenophobe when discussing the European Union.

A great deal of us do not have a fear or homosexuals or foreigners, nor do we have a hatred of people of other skin colours. But does this mean we can still object to homosexuality, mass-immigration and foreigners ruling this country? yes it does, and I don't expected to be slurred with words that do not mean what you intend them to mean.

Judas
26-10-2011, 04:54 PM
Those bringing up 'homophobia' here, classing those who object to/dislike homosexuality as homophobic.

A phobia is an irrational fear, the word has been hijacked and i'm not going to stand for it anymore, just as I will not stand for being called a 'racist' when discussing mass immigration or being labeled an xenophobe when discussing the European Union.

A great deal of us do not have a fear or homosexuals or foreigners, nor do we have a hatred of people of other skin colours. But does this mean we can still object to homosexuality, mass-immigration and foreigners ruling this country? yes it does, and I don't expected to be slurred with words that do not mean what you intend them to mean.

The dictionary would like a word with you.

Inseriousity.
26-10-2011, 04:54 PM
I think it's a mixture of both nature and nurture. I am bisexual and knew from 5-6 that I liked both males and females. I didn't really understand relationships at the time so wouldn't have known the terms for it but it was definitely at an early age. I think the opinions lie around the following questions:

Am I hanging around with women, gay men etc because I'm gay?
Am I gay because I'm hanging around with women, gay men etc?

I should point out that, in my experience, I used to hang around with girls all the time during primary school. Not entirely sure why tbh, it just worked out that way. Not trying to say there's a stereotype of gay men in the above questions however I think this is the point. There is no 'one size fits all' solution to this. People can live in the most homophobic of families and communities and still say 'I'm gay' (or if they choose not to say it, know inside that they are). This suggests to me that there must be some nature involved as well.

edit: words are not 'hijacked', words evolve. There's a difference

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 04:56 PM
The dictionary would like a word with you.

If you think you can get away with classing opposing views to homosexuality as homophobia then you are wrong, even when you use hijacked words. It also does your 'cause' no good either because as know the homosexual lobby has a reputation for flashing the homophobia card whenever they are met with criticism.

A key example being this thread.


edit: words are not 'hijacked', words evolve. There's a difference

Would you like it if I started describing you as a 'denier' whenever we disagreed with one another? you know, to implicate you as a holocaust denier? I doubt you would, so i'd ask others to stop using words which class opponents as mentally backward simply for opposing homosexuality.


People can live in the most homophobic of families and communities and still say 'I'm gay' (or if they choose not to say it, know inside that they are). This suggests to me that there must be some nature involved as well.

I agree, this being the key factor against the enviroment/nuture argument. It could be, as I think, that genetics actually influence personality traits which is what I think the case is.

Judas
26-10-2011, 04:59 PM
If you think you can get away with classing opposing views to homosexuality as homophobia then you are wrong, even when you use hijacked words. It also does your 'cause' no good either because as know the homosexual lobby has a reputation for flashing the homophobia card whenever they are met with criticism.

A key example being this thread.

You're making things way bigger than they are, and it is so pointless. You say people are trying to shut down the debate when you're the one completely derailing it with your unnecessary rambling about your disagreement with the ******* dictionary definition of a word.

I haven't called anyone a homophobe in this thread, and no one is saying that someone with opposing views is homophobic. Those with a dislike or prejudice towards homosexuals are.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 05:02 PM
I haven't called anyone a homophobe in this thread, and no one is saying that someone with opposing views is homophobic. Those with a dislike or prejudice towards homosexuals are.

Often when you oppose something it naturally means you dislike it. :rolleyes:

In other words, anybody with an objection or dislike with homosexuality is a homophobe then.

Judas
26-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Often when you oppose something it naturally means you dislike it. :rolleyes:

In other words, anybody with an objection or dislike with homosexuality is a homophobe then.

ho·mo·pho·bi·a
noun /ˌhōməˈfōbēə/
prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality

Looks like you're getting the hang of things!

http://blog.linklift.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/GoldStarSticker.jpg

Inseriousity.
26-10-2011, 05:10 PM
If you think you can get away with classing opposing views to homosexuality as homophobia then you are wrong, even when you use hijacked words. It also does your 'cause' no good either because as know the homosexual lobby has a reputation for flashing the homophobia card whenever they are met with criticism.

A key example being this thread.

Would you like it if I started describing you as a 'denier' whenever we disagreed with one another? you know, to implicate you as a holocaust denier? I doubt you would, so i'd ask others to stop using words which class opponents as mentally backward simply for opposing homosexuality.

Well this actually proves my point. According to this (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/denier), the word 'denier' originated in the 14th Century and means:
a unit of weight indicating the fineness of fiber filaments and yarns, both silk and synthetic, and equal to a yarn weighing one gram per each 9000 meters: used especially in indicating the fineness of women's hosiery.

The holocaust occured during the 2nd World War so a long time since the 14th Century and so if the word denier now had connotations of holocaust denier, it would show how words and language can evolve into different meanings and contexts, the same way that homophobia does not just mean 'fear of homosexuals' but has evolved to also mean a prejudice against them.

Does it stop the debate? No because debates don't stop over petty name-calling.

PS feel free to call me a denier all you want. I couldn't care less.
PSS. Not sure why someone with a fear would be 'mentally backwards' anyway. Everyone has fears, makes people human.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 05:11 PM
I can be childish also if you wish Judas, you hetrosexual denier (thats right, remember the holocaust).

But as I said before, you homosexuals who act like yourself do yourselves no favours at all with your attitudes to criticism.


PS feel free to call me a denier all you want. I couldn't care less.
PSS. Not sure why someone with a fear would be 'mentally backwards' anyway. Everyone has fears, makes people human.

But I don't, because its disrespectful and slurs you as something you are not.

I feel I can argue points without slurring opponents as deniers, or classing them as being mentally backward.


I agree, this being the key factor against the enviroment/nuture argument. It could be, as I think, that genetics actually influence personality traits which is what I think the case is.

Indeed, enviroment argument makes no sense when some have father figures who push them to like football/girls etc.

FlyingJesus
26-10-2011, 05:11 PM
From my Collins thesaurus:

Phobia
aversion, detestation, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hatred, horror, loathing, obsession, repulsion, revulsion, terror

dbgtz
26-10-2011, 05:14 PM
I'd say you're born it, but it develops as you age. Someone on the first page was saying how an infant knows if they are gay are not (or something along those lines) is a bit of a ridiculous arguement considering that the chances of you being sexually attracted to someone so young is pretty unlikely and if I am right, there is another word which says how someone is attracted to someone in the same sex by their personality rather then sexuality so if you were to see a boy be "friendly" with a boy at a young age it would likely be that. To be honest, I don't think most people think sexually until puberty.

Inseriousity.
26-10-2011, 05:14 PM
I can be childish also if you wish Judas, you hetrosexual denier (thats right, remember the holocaust).

But as I said before, you homosexuals who act like yourself do yourselves no favours at all with your attitudes to criticism.



But I don't, because its disrespectful and slurs you as something you are not.

I feel I can argue points without slurring opponents as deniers, or classing them as being mentally backward.

Clearly not and the 'he started it' excuse would also be childish ;)

Judas
26-10-2011, 05:15 PM
I can be childish also if you wish Judas, you hetrosexual denier (thats right, remember the holocaust).

But as I said before, you homosexuals who act like yourself do yourselves no favours at all with your attitudes to criticism.

1) I'm not a homosexual
2) No one has criticised me in this thread for my orientation, I'm simply trying to explain to you what the word homophobia means.

Stop with your baseless claims pls :S

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 05:16 PM
From my Collins thesaurus:

Phobia
aversion, detestation, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hatred, horror, loathing, obsession, repulsion, revulsion, terror

In that case, why is nobody labelled as 'EUphobic', 'ClubHabbo phobic' or 'immigration phobic' - why? because its ridiculous and childish.


Clearly not and the 'he started it' excuse would also be childish ;)

Well actually thats an sarcastic example, but nevermind.

Judas
26-10-2011, 05:19 PM
In that case, why is nobody labelled as 'EUphobic', 'ClubHabbo phobic' or 'immigration phobic' - why? because they aren't actual words like homophobic is

fixed.

FlyingJesus
26-10-2011, 05:22 PM
In that case, why is nobody labelled as 'EUphobic',

Eurosceptic


'ClubHabbo phobic'

Sensible


or 'immigration phobic'

Intraxenophobic or nationalist


- why? because its ridiculous and childish.

Or possibly because there are other words for them and not everything has to use the same language roots, especially in a language as diversely inspired as English

beth
26-10-2011, 05:26 PM
GirlNextDoor15 has not voiced any fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, there is no homophobia at all in her post. At that, she has not even expressed any dislike (which is not homophobia, see above) towards homosexuality or homosexuals in general, rather towards the culture that surrounds the issue ... And you have just added to that culture, the idea that homosexuality is above all criticism.



Indeed, this is correct. We only have to look at gay 'pride' marches (which our shameful councils pay for) when most people actually find them repulsive, cringeworthy and flaunty for a variety of reasons from the message to the theme. We only have to look at the propaganda in schools, not just preaching just tolerance anymore (which is not the place of schools anyway) but actually teaching 'acceptance' which I find a sinister hint of Orwell's 1984 within. We also have the cult of the likes of Lady Gaga and the usual 'baby I was born this way' rubbish that we have to put up with whenever homosexuality is brought up, which, sadly, closes any rational debate on the subject down.

There is nothing homophobic nor have you shown any hatred or dislike of homosexuals in your post. Even if you had shown a dislike of homosexuality or even a fear (personally i've never come across a fear of homosexuals so I don't see why its being mentioned so often) then you are perfectly entitled to do so.

(if there's any bizarre autocorrects in this post its cause i'm doing it on my phone.)

i said borderline for a reason but i do believe there was negative connotation from her words towards homosexuality/homosexuals. which i disagree with. if you don't like gay culture that's different to disliking homosexuality is it not? and if that is what she meant it could've been worded better. homophobia to me is someone disliking homosexuality to the point of being offensive about it. i don't really care who/why/how i came to have that personal definition but i am very much entitled to my own opinion.

i can understand people disliking gay culture, but i believe people disliking homosexuality is odd. if yr comgortable with yr own sexuality why does someone else's sexuality bother you so much?

but then not to contradict myself, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 06:18 PM
Eurosceptic

Sensible

Intraxenophobic or nationalist

Or possibly because there are other words for them and not everything has to use the same language roots, especially in a language as diversely inspired as English

As you can see, not a 'phobic' word - homophobic is used purposely to dismiss any criticisms or dislike of homosexuality by classing this criticism/dislike of homosexuality as some sort of mental ******ation. This is because the word has been hijacked, unlike on other topics as of yet, to silence all criticism of homosexuality. When phobia becomes added to everything we dislike/criticise, then i'll take you all seriously using it - until then i'll treat it as you all do but care not to admit so; an attempt to dismiss criticisms and distaste to homosexuality.

If I dislike homosexuality I am not homophobic, I simply dislike it just as I may dislike the colour orange/a family member.
If I criticise homosexuality I am not homophobic, I simply am criticising homosexuality in general/parts of homosexuality.
If I have an irrational fear of homosexuality I am homophobic.


(if there's any bizarre autocorrects in this post its cause i'm doing it on my phone.)

i said borderline for a reason but i do believe there was negative connotation from her words towards homosexuality/homosexuals. which i disagree with. if you don't like gay culture that's different to disliking homosexuality is it not? and if that is what she meant it could've been worded better. homophobia to me is someone disliking homosexuality to the point of being offensive about it. i don't really care who/why/how i came to have that personal definition but i am very much entitled to my own opinion.

i can understand people disliking gay culture, but i believe people disliking homosexuality is odd. if yr comgortable with yr own sexuality why does someone else's sexuality bother you so much?

but then not to contradict myself, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

But it isn't that - homophobia is simply a dismissive term used to dismiss any criticism/dislike of homosexuality. If you really have the courage of your convictions and believe you have sensible counter-points to those who show a dislike/criticise homosexuality, then debate it rather than use dismissive terms 'well your just a homophobe' as though the arguments advanced are being advanced by somebody mentally ******ed.

As for my exact opinions on sexuality, I haven't spoken them out in this thread - i've just stood up against one side of the debate being shut down as it usually is through the use of certain words, just as with global warming (denier), immigration (xenophobe) etc etc. But GirlNextDoor15 wasn't even showing a dislike/distate towards homosexuality, let alone a phobia of homosexuality.

If people are going to oppose criticism of homosexuality, then they are going to have to come up with better reasons for rejecting that criticism rather than simply saying that any criticism or distaste of homosexuality is 'homophobia'.

Inseriousity.
26-10-2011, 08:13 PM
If people are going to oppose criticism of homosexuality, then they are going to have to come up with better reasons for rejecting that criticism rather than simply saying that any criticism or distaste of homosexuality is 'homophobia'.

Likewise, one could argue that:

If people are going to oppose criticism of criticism of homosexuality, then they are going to have to come up with better reasons for rejecting that criticism of the criticism rather than simply arguing over the origins of a word.

-:Undertaker:-
26-10-2011, 08:18 PM
Likewise, one could argue that:

If people are going to oppose criticism of criticism of homosexuality, then they are going to have to come up with better reasons for rejecting that criticism of the criticism rather than simply arguing over the origins of a word.

Because all you do is stifle debate with that word, thats why no debate can be held on it either here on in the public square - anyone who dares shows a dislike, distate or criticism of homosexuality is instantly dismissed as a frothing-at-the-mouth 'homophobe'.

I stated before, I haven't even given my opinions so much on this topic - but i've seen another member vilified for a harmless comment.

peteyt
26-10-2011, 08:19 PM
GirlNextDoor15 has not voiced any fear of homosexuality/homosexuals, there is no homophobia at all in her post. At that, she has not even expressed any dislike (which is not homophobia, see above) towards homosexuality or homosexuals in general, rather towards the culture that surrounds the issue ... And you have just added to that culture, the idea that homosexuality is above all criticism.



Indeed, this is correct. We only have to look at gay 'pride' marches (which our shameful councils pay for) when most people actually find them repulsive, cringeworthy and flaunty for a variety of reasons from the message to the theme. We only have to look at the propaganda in schools, not just preaching just tolerance anymore (which is not the place of schools anyway) but actually teaching 'acceptance' which I find a sinister hint of Orwell's 1984 within. We also have the cult of the likes of Lady Gaga and the usual 'baby I was born this way' rubbish that we have to put up with whenever homosexuality is brought up, which, sadly, closes any rational debate on the subject down.

There is nothing homophobic nor have you shown any hatred or dislike of homosexuals in your post. Even if you had shown a dislike of homosexuality or even a fear (personally i've never come across a fear of homosexuals so I don't see why its being mentioned so often) then you are perfectly entitled to do so.

You do bring an interesting point. When it comes to gays, to me there is a big issue with problem/issue with the way they are often shown, the issue being THE MEDIA.

How many gay's do you see that aren't over the top camp on TV. Not very many. I feel the media really should try to show gays at both ends of the spectrum and in the middle. Instead of just having over the top camp hosts, Graeme Norton coming into my mind right now, why not have some softer gays.

I find it kind of weird how some gay's love to flaunt how their gay, I'm gay look at me. You don't really see the straight equivalent like I'm straight look at me. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, but it just seems the media only shows one side.

And I do have an example. The actor Russell Tovey who's been in Doctor Who and the BBC3 comedy Him & Her (Where he interestingly plays a very convincing straight guy in a relationship). He found it hard to come out simply because there was no role model for him, there was no proper blokey kind of gay's instead simply the over the top famboyant type and so while he considers himself gay he thinks he doesn't fit into the gay type society.

I think that's the important thing here. There are people out there that are gay that act straight, because that's just them, they don't like the over the top campyness. The Media really needs to portray both sides. I think it would help with people confused about their sexuality like Russell Tovey.

Also after reading all your comments I still don't fully agree with being born gay. I read that the lady who was voted off X Factor at the weekend, can't remember her name, but apparently she turned Lesbian after her last relationship.

You could say that she always knew she was, but to me people's tastes change. Music I used to like I hate now. I mean you hear of people who've been straight all their life and then they meet one person of the same sex and they feel a powerful connection that they'd never felt with the same sex before.

I know Patrick Wolf a musician doesn't actually believe in sexuality himself. Instead he thinks its based on the person, so he may fall in love with a brilliant girl or a brilliant guy, but it is the person he falls for and not the sexuality of that person.

Inseriousity.
26-10-2011, 08:44 PM
Because all you do is stifle debate with that word, thats why no debate can be held on it either here on in the public square - anyone who dares shows a dislike, distate or criticism of homosexuality is instantly dismissed as a frothing-at-the-mouth 'homophobe'.

I stated before, I haven't even given my opinions so much on this topic - but i've seen another member vilified for a harmless comment.

No you don't stifle debate with that word because the debate continues on regardless of it. She wasn't described as a 'frothing at the mouth homophobe', she was described as a "borderline homophobe" which is just an opinion and not fact. The only one stopping the debate is you by going onto completely different tangents as you say you haven't even given your opinion and we're already on page 4.

lucycamper
26-10-2011, 08:52 PM
Well it is not proven and so it could be true but couldn't be true. However I personaly don't think you can be born gay! :D

.Tom.
26-10-2011, 10:29 PM
Really interesting reading through this thread... So much focus on the origins of a word oO

But on topic, I feel it's a mixture of the two :)

I do disagree though that the default setting of a person is straight. Just because this is the majority/has previously been the accepted norm, it doesnt make the point correct :)

Judas
27-10-2011, 12:46 AM
Really interesting reading through this thread... So much focus on the origins of a word oO

But on topic, I feel it's a mixture of the two :)

I do disagree though that the default setting of a person is straight. Just because this is the majority/has previously been the accepted norm, it doesnt make the point correct :)

lol ikr

+ i agree with you.

GirlNextDoor15
27-10-2011, 02:37 AM
And the evidence you have to back up these facts is what?

I respect your opinion but don't tell me things like they are absolutely true. And why assume that some people pretend to be gay to act cool? That is such a cynical thing to say that is so irrelevant to this question, that some may be offended by :rolleyes:

Can't really show you any evidences but some people I know.. they said they are gay because it's cool. It is not my own assumption. It is based on my experiences with some friends. I wouldn't say it out in a debate if it's not true, right?


i think the parts bolded are incredibly offensive, sure i'm gonna get another -rep from you from voicing an opinion (and what you say is an opinion, it's not fact) different to yours, but whatever. not a talent? whoever said having a sexuality was a talent. and the second point is just... "some of the gay people" they're not a seperate breed from you, they're still humans and A LOT of the gay people i know would prefer to be straight as they feel they'd have one less hassle in their life. and of course they're gonna stand up for themselves, even in the 21st century homophobia is ripe. and yr kinda proving it here, the way you are talking is borderline homophobic and it's not even intentional i believe. it's just because you have no knowledge of homosexuality.

First of all, I -rep you because you don't even know what's going on between me and Lamar and straight away jump into your own conclusions. Second, sexuality preferences is not a talent. That's what I'm trying to say here. You can't just say 'I am gay ever since I was born'. It's a simile to what I'm saying. Third, they are NOT a separate breed. That I will have to agree with you because it's true. But, did I say anything that means like I'm hating them? I use the word 'some' to indicate just a few of them. I cannot say all gay people are gay because they think it's cool, right? It's not true. Just a few of them. Not all. And it's based on my experiences with gay people. If you want to deny my experiences, then go on. Fourth, what did I say to prove that I'm a homophobic? I don't get you, Bethie. I respect gay people. But, some of them are trying to act cool by saying they're gay just like how you might think it's cool if you have a gun. Although it doesn't happen to you, it doesn't mean that it never happens.

GirlNextDoor15
27-10-2011, 03:10 AM
i said borderline for a reason but i do believe there was negative connotation from her words towards homosexuality/homosexuals. which i disagree with.

You can deny my opinions by stating facts or evidences because debate is CLEARLY about facts/evidences. The 'I believe...' thing that you just said will not make any slight difference if you don't have any facts/evidences. So, stop jumping into conclusions please.


gay culture

If I'm not mistaken, you mentioned 'gay culture' twice in your post. Gay isn't supposed to be a culture, right? It's rather a sexual preference. If you keep on going with your gay culture thingy, then people will start to say this blahblah country is famous with its gay culture. Like I said, I respect gay people but people who say they are gay because they think it's cool is really undoubtedly annoying. They are confused between their own sexual orientation and being under influence.

xRemziBx
27-10-2011, 02:49 PM
In my opinion I don't think you are born gay, and I don't think you are born straight.

Its really who you grow up around, most people are brought up around straight people and because of that they think that they have to be straight, but as you start to gain experience with people, you start to realise that you might like different people.

Vinnie:Safety
27-10-2011, 02:52 PM
I never heard a straight person with a gay voice, or gay traits. Serious gay traits.
So I Am gonna say they are born that way.

FlyingJesus
27-10-2011, 04:40 PM
I never heard a straight person with a gay voice, or gay traits. Serious gay traits.
So I Am gonna say they are born that way.

The only "gay traits" are being sexually/romantically involved with someone of your own gender. As for "gay voice", just wow. Camp =/= gay

Vinnie:Safety
27-10-2011, 04:43 PM
The only "gay traits" are being sexually/romantically involved with someone of your own gender. As for "gay voice", just wow. Camp =/= gay

There are more traits then just the ones your said..
Like the one i said.

Ardemax
27-10-2011, 05:21 PM
I find it interesting to be honest.

I know there are a lot of gays who are and who are not religious and I'm just curious that's all.

On the topic of being "born gay", if you are not religious and you believe our only purpose on this earth is to reproduce, how on earth can you be born gay? Surely it's one of those Adam and Eve situations...

Secondly if you were religious, I'm sure that all or most religions teach about a man and a woman, therefore it would be your choice to be gay?

I'm not hating, just curious. :)

Chippiewill
27-10-2011, 10:08 PM
In terms of the thread title, Homosexuality cannot be genetic since a "gay gene" is self-destructive, if we were to evolve to have that gene our species would die out. So either:

a) Miracle
b) Common genetic mutation during pregnancy
c) After birth


From my Collins thesaurus:

Phobia
aversion, detestation, dislike, distaste, dread, fear, hatred, horror, loathing, obsession, repulsion, revulsion, terror
A Thesaurus is not a dictionary (For definitions), it means you get similar words. Phobia specifically references irrational fear whilst these all reference an aversion/dislike/distaste towards something.

@Undertaker

Homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals or homosexuality
You have not provided a rational basis for disliking/fearing homosexuals
You are homophobic

GommeInc
27-10-2011, 10:29 PM
I think this world is too complex and diverse to assume it has to be either or. I think some people are born gay, or innately feel the feelings they do and can track them down to when they were young. However, I feel that sometimes lifestyle can induce homosexuality or open up and trigger homosexuality later in life, or some sort of bisexuality that jumps between heterosexuality and homosexuality at whim. There is no right or wrong answer, genetically there may be no evidence for many cases and lifestyle can only be the answer - some seemingly straight men may like to pleasure or be pleasured by other men.

The very definition of homosexuality is disputed. Is it just sex, an emotional feeling or a mixture of the two? Perhaps even more attributing factors, like the physical look of men but not necessarily being physical with them.


@Undertaker

Homophobia is an irrational fear of homosexuals or homosexuality
You have not provided a rational basis for disliking/fearing homosexuals
You are homophobic
Surely a rational belief that something is wrong can sometimes fall under a phobia, or would you suggest that the meaning of phobia is often attributed to wrong things? Loads of homophobic people can rationally argue why they hate homosexuals, yet they still hate them. I think the word phobia has evolved to literally mean hate or fear of any kind - I seem to be getting that opinion from any study on homophobia at least :P

FlyingJesus
27-10-2011, 10:30 PM
There are more traits then just the ones your said..
Like the one i said.

No I believe you are thinking of camp traits, the only thing required to be gay is to be attracted to people of the same sex as you. As I said before, camp =/= gay

Misawa
27-10-2011, 11:31 PM
I live in Brighton. I have enough friends who are gay/lesbian to know that it isn't a choice, like how fellow straight folks didn't choose to be straight.

peteyt
28-10-2011, 12:59 AM
I live in Brighton. I have enough friends who are gay/lesbian to know that it isn't a choice, like how fellow straight folks didn't choose to be straight.

But as a straight person I choose not to go for men. I know friends however who are bisexual and late on, but prefer one sex. They simply decided to experiment, but had never considered it before.

I agree maybe some people can know they are from early on, but it doesn't explain how some people change their sexuality, and never considered changing it until that point or late on.

Vinnie:Safety
28-10-2011, 01:34 PM
No I believe you are thinking of camp traits, the only thing required to be gay is to be attracted to people of the same sex as you. As I said before, camp =/= gay

What are camp traits? and what is camp =/= gay ?
/:

peteyt
28-10-2011, 03:00 PM
What are camp traits? and what is camp =/= gay ?
/:

As mentioned in my post this is a problem the media has brought on.

Most media gays are the stereotypical type of gays. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there are gays that don't act camp just like there are straight people that sometimes may act in a camp manner.

Judas
28-10-2011, 04:04 PM
But as a straight person I choose not to go for men. I know friends however who are bisexual and late on, but prefer one sex. They simply decided to experiment, but had never considered it before.

I agree maybe some people can know they are from early on, but it doesn't explain how some people change their sexuality, and never considered changing it until that point or late on.

Being bisexual and preferring one is not a choice though, just a preference...

And while you choose not to go for men, you could also choose to go for men even if you don't find them attractive, and that wouldn't make you gay. It would just be a strange thing for you to do.

Chippiewill
28-10-2011, 05:54 PM
Surely a rational belief that something is wrong can sometimes fall under a phobia, or would you suggest that the meaning of phobia is often attributed to wrong things? Loads of homophobic people can rationally argue why they hate homosexuals, yet they still hate them. I think the word phobia has evolved to literally mean hate or fear of any kind - I seem to be getting that opinion from any study on homophobia at least :P

I would certainly believe that people use "phobia" for a far broader function than it's original definition. And whilst there are several rational arguments against homosexuals like "The human race would die out" most cases would require insurmountable odds to occur (Think: 0.1^7,000,000,000) it's like believing that you could rationally be scared of spiders because you could die, well the only spider with deadly venom in the UK is the daddy long legs which has too short of fangs to penetrate human skin requiring, again, insurmountable odds for a daddy long legs somehow getting venom into an open flesh wound. I'd still call it irrational even though it's possible. Most however stretch the definition from fear (Particularly with Homophobia) to dislike, which is an entirely different idea which is more analogous with racism.

GommeInc
28-10-2011, 06:09 PM
I would certainly believe that people use "phobia" for a far broader function than it's original definition. And whilst there are several rational arguments against homosexuals like "The human race would die out" most cases would require insurmountable odds to occur (Think: 0.1^7,000,000,000) it's like believing that you could rationally be scared of spiders because you could die, well the only spider with deadly venom in the UK is the daddy long legs which has too short of fangs to penetrate human skin requiring, again, insurmountable odds for a daddy long legs somehow getting venom into an open flesh wound. I'd still call it irrational even though it's possible. Most however stretch the definition from fear (Particularly with Homophobia) to dislike, which is an entirely different idea which is more analogous with racism.
An interesting answer :) But what deems something rational or irrational is the problem here. Using your example of "the human race will die out" is a possibility but unbelievable. Perhaps an irrational fear is only irrational if it is unbelieveable? Using homophobia as an example here is difficult because it is a dodgy subject and seems to be based purely on personal beliefs than any sort of fact, but with spiders the phobia could be justifiable for all kinds of reasons - death, infections or something as simple as their overall design e.g. their weak seeming legs, seemingly useless number of eyes etc. This can cause a irrational fear (e.g. the number of eyes) with something seemingly rational (e.g. weak legs). A friend of mine has a fear of spiders because they find their weaknesses like their thin legs disturbing despite how good they are at killing.

So although you find it irrational despite the possibility, it could be considered rational because any tiny amount of possibility could make it likely to happen.

Like I said earlier, these sorts of debate are complex and diverse and there really are no right or wrong answers - it's what you think as they are entirely opinionated :P An interesting debate none-the-less.

HotelUser
28-10-2011, 06:10 PM
The decisions we make about anything are influenced by the same or similar factors. The social environment we grow up in, the people around us and the experiences we have in life all have an impact on whether we prefer blue to black, RAP or Rock or even influence your love life. Everybody's been exposed to different things growing up, different environments and everyone thinks different. Even if you experience something someone else experienced, your interpretation of it will be completely different because no two minds are alike.

In Sambia culture males as young as seven engage in oral sex with older males because of their beliefs on manhood. To us this seems crazy but to them it's the norm, it's socially acceptable and totally justified based upon the parameters of their society.

People are gay for the same reason people are straight, like wearing makeup, like red or like blue. Because throughout their life they interpreted various things in a certain ways which is called preference. Saying someone is born gay is like saying someone was born to love the colour green. It's their preference because of an assortment of events, observations and unique interpretations throughout the individual's life.

Judas
28-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Can we stop talking about the definition of homophobia lol it's pretty irrelevant and is clogging up this thread which deals with quite an interesting subject... Make another thread if you want to debate that

peteyt
29-10-2011, 02:47 AM
The decisions we make about anything are influenced by the same or similar factors. The social environment we grow up in, the people around us and the experiences we have in life all have an impact on whether we prefer blue to black, RAP or Rock or even influence your love life. Everybody's been exposed to different things growing up, different environments and everyone thinks different. Even if you experience something someone else experienced, your interpretation of it will be completely different because no two minds are alike.

In Sambia culture males as young as seven engage in oral sex with older males because of their beliefs on manhood. To us this seems crazy but to them it's the norm, it's socially acceptable and totally justified based upon the parameters of their society.

People are gay for the same reason people are straight, like wearing makeup, like red or like blue. Because throughout their life they interpreted various things in a certain ways which is called preference. Saying someone is born gay is like saying someone was born to love the colour green. It's their preference because of an assortment of events, observations and unique interpretations throughout the individual's life.

I think what you said really sums everything up about how I see it. Everyone in my opinion is born balanced (forgetting birth defects that can occur) and some simply lean one way or another all depending on a multiple of things including family background, beliefs and just general opinions tastes and thoughts.

The way I see it is you can have different tastes musically from parents, brothers/sisters etc. This doesn't mean you where born with them you simply made a decision on what you liked/perfered which to me sums up sexuality. You decide what you like/prefer based on stuff.

This to me proves how straight people can go gay and vice versa because tastes themselves are aquirred and change - people go off genres of music film etc compelely and move to others.

I know some may disagree with this. A lot of people seem to think you can't change back once your gay your gay. But it happens and why shouldn't it. It's all about personal preferences. I might love a girlfriend then bump into a mysterious man who shows me a good time and I fall for him then in turn may fall for another girl later on.

Sexuality to me is something that doesn't have to be concrete, set in stone.

And to all the people going on about the meaning oh phobia people who are called homophobic are usually believed to be simply against gay's not scared of them. Ricky Gervais is a prime example - He's had complaints about the usage of the word mongs because it offends people with difficulties e.g. down syndrome but it is used in a wider sense today. Remember gay once meant happy. Words can change or even get multiple meanings. As someone mentioned earlier it is the beautiful thing about language.

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