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Thomas.
07-02-2014, 08:22 PM
David Cameron has urged the rest of the UK to tell Scottish voters to reject independence saying he could not bear to see the country "torn apart".

He said he had chosen the Olympic Park as a venue for his speech because he wanted to send a message to people living in the rest of the UK, adding "all 63 million of us are profoundly affected" by the referendum.

"That's why this speech is addressed not to the people of Scotland, but to the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We would be deeply diminished without Scotland". "This matters to all our futures. And everyone in the UK can have a voice in this debate."

"In September, we have a chance to put Scotland's future in Scotland's hands and ensure that we always get the government we vote for."

Source: BBC News



What do you think?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~archibald/ScotlandFlag.gif

FlyingJesus
07-02-2014, 08:32 PM
It is a country

-:Undertaker:-
07-02-2014, 09:11 PM
I do not want to see Scotland become independent. Together Britain has the most remarkable history of any country in the world: how did a wind swept island off the coast of the European continent become the largest Empire the world had ever known? A nation that developed the concept of English Liberty and Common Law from England upto present-day Britain. An Industrial Revolution, the first in the world, sparked by Scottish Britons. A monarchy that has a very close and intertwined history which resulted in the Union of the Crowns and eventually the Acts of Union. The Battle of Waterloo, the Battle of Rorke's Drift, the Battle of the Somme, the Boer War, Queen-Empress Victoria and the Victorian era, World War I, World War II, Churchill, the Palace of Westminster and the Westminster system of government, our nuclear deterrent built during the Cold War that is based in Scotland, the Falklands War and the Queen's Platnium Jubilee. Our poetry, our language, our foods, our drinks, our outlook in general..............

All of this, and much more we did as Britain - not as England or as Scotland. Why bring to an end the most successful nation that has ever existed?


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/25/article-2149845-134B2EED000005DC-327_634x367.jpg

The Churchill video with I Vow To Thee My Country always gets me nostalgic and patriotic for some reason so I will share. :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87Xkr8z3lEo

Rule Britannia and I hope the Scots vote do so too in September.

Kardan
07-02-2014, 09:50 PM
"And everyone in the UK can have a voice in this debate."

We may have a voice, but it's only the votes of the Scots that count, and I'm not sure my ramblings on will persuade any Scots to change their mind :P

I would much prefer if Scotland stayed part of the UK, but I'm not Scottish, so my opinion doesn't count for much :P

dbgtz
08-02-2014, 12:06 AM
Not as it is currently planned for sure, the plan is an absolute mess and there is either no certainty or Salmond is essentially demanding the rest of the UK has to act in Scotland's best interest once it gains independence. The whole argument and reasoning for wanting independence is a whole load of crap too and anyone who buys into half of the arguments presented is a bit of a moron to be quite honest. I'd also rather see a federal UK (which would solve a hell of a lot of "issues" most pro-independence campaigners seem to have) before I see a broken UK.

David
08-02-2014, 02:24 AM
if i vote im voting no
as much as i want to see it happen i know its a bad idea to do so

Thomas.
08-02-2014, 09:04 AM
No it isnt, its part of the United Kingdom.

-Nick
08-02-2014, 09:24 AM
I thought it is a country?:S


Hmm! Sent from this lovely phone :)

karter
08-02-2014, 03:02 PM
Together Britain has the most remarkable history of any country in the world

:rolleyes: :big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::L:L:L:L:L :L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L :shifty:

Mark
08-02-2014, 03:14 PM
I'm a Scot and currently I'm voting no. After reading the white paper and going to numerous independence debates, the White Paper looks more of a manifesto of empty SNP promises, that's really too good to be true. I also enjoy being part of the UK, we get a good deal and it's a great country union to be a part of

zombies
08-02-2014, 03:54 PM
i'm a scot and i'm voting no!

-:Undertaker:-
08-02-2014, 05:30 PM
Not as it is currently planned for sure, the plan is an absolute mess and there is either no certainty or Salmond is essentially demanding the rest of the UK has to act in Scotland's best interest once it gains independence. The whole argument and reasoning for wanting independence is a whole load of crap too and anyone who buys into half of the arguments presented is a bit of a moron to be quite honest. I'd also rather see a federal UK (which would solve a hell of a lot of "issues" most pro-independence campaigners seem to have) before I see a broken UK.

See, as a Unionist i'd have to switch to supporting a independent Kingdom of England if a move towards devomax or federalism is made. Under a federal set up, we'd risk losing our unwritten constitution and we'd have the constitutional crisis potential whereby Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would be able to block legislation in a Federal Council/Senate despite being much smaller than England.

A system of federalism would basically mean England paying for the defence of everybody else. What's the point in the UK if it goes federal?


:rolleyes: :big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::big_grin::L:L:L:L:L :L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L :shifty:

Absolutely, and top historians agree and disagree with your blind anti-British hatred. No nation has ever made such a lasting impact on the world as Britain has, apart from the Roman Empire. That's the fact of world history.

I won't take lectures on Britain from somebody who lives in a country that still practices slavery (the caste system) in the modern world. And that reminds me of another great gift that Britain gave to the world, the abolition of slavery. Without us, it's very likely that slavery would still be practiced worldwide just as it is still practiced in modern India. Thanks for the reminder of another great gift Britain gave to the world :)

dbgtz
08-02-2014, 06:19 PM
See, as a Unionist i'd have to switch to supporting a independent Kingdom of England if a move towards devomax or federalism is made. Under a federal set up, we'd risk losing our unwritten constitution and we'd have the constitutional crisis potential whereby Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would be able to block legislation in a Federal Council/Senate despite being much smaller than England.


Well when I said that, I was basically imagining each constituent country of the UK having evenly distributed power over each region rather than this unequal mess and having "MPs" only vote together on joint matters such as defence. The only constituent country, in my vision, that may have unequal power is Northern Ireland for reasons you can guess. The only problem I could see if this were have some sort of attempt at implementation is who writes it.

I've said before I'd rather there was no devolution altogether, but this is my preferred alternative.



A system of federalism would basically mean England paying for the defence of everybody else. What's the point in the UK if it goes federal?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but OK.

FlyingJesus
08-02-2014, 07:25 PM
Alexander of Macedon, Barbarossa, the Achaemenid and Sassanid empires of Persia, the Ottomans, the New Kingdom of Egypt, none of these people shaped the world obv because it isn't taught in British schools and they didn't speak English

-:Undertaker:-
08-02-2014, 07:28 PM
Alexander of Macedon, Barbarossa, the Achaemenid and Sassanid empires of Persia, the Ottomans, the New Kingdom of Egypt, none of these people shaped the world obv because it isn't taught in British schools and they didn't speak English

Did I dispute the influence and importance of these civilisations, nations or empires? No, I did not. All nations and civiliations should be proud of themselves and their culture - just as I am, and I won't be told or taught to be ashamed of my own country, it's culture and it's history by left wing white guilt theory. I'm damn well proud of our history and I stand for people lecturing me on how worthless/evil it is.

I have said many times in the past in regards to the EU for example that it's a disgrace that Germany is constantly made to feel ashamed of itself.


I've said before I'd rather there was no devolution altogether, but this is my preferred alternative.

Agreed.


I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but OK.

Because we could very well end up with bloc voting among the federal 'states' of a federal UK whereby England, with the largest population by far, could be outvoted on say defence despite the fact that it would be England mainly paying for defence.

In my view, if countries wish to make more or less most of their own laws then they should be independent.

FlyingJesus
08-02-2014, 07:48 PM
Never said you should feel guilty about British history, although it was pretty hilarious that you condemned slavery and feudal caste systems while glorifying the empire

ps Britain didn't give the world the abolition of slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline)

-:Undertaker:-
08-02-2014, 08:01 PM
Never said you should feel guilty about British history, although it was pretty hilarious that you condemned slavery and feudal caste systems while glorifying the empire

Nobody claimed the Empire was perfect, but you have to weigh it up. It's true that Britain once practiced slavery across it's Empire - but it's also true that Britain abolished slavery rather early on in it's Empire... something very unique in world history as slavery had been common in the world until this point. It's true that British colonies did not have sufficent rights and lacked democracy for native people... but on the other hand it's also true that had Britain not conquered these areas, they would have not been granted English Liberty & Common Law (which makes a people more free than a democracy) and would not have ended up with Westminster democracy post-independence as many of them did but which many of them ruined within only a few years of Britain leaving.


ps Britain didn't give the world the abolition of slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline)

Britain led the way in abolishing slavery seeing as Britain controlled the oceans. Indeed, British ships used to purposely target and board Spanish ships carrying slaves which we then freed. William Wilberforce and the efforts of others led to the abolition of slavery in the British Empire which de facto (due to it's size and coverage) abolished slavery around the world. It was those evil white people who abolished slavery across the world.

That is a good legacy from the British Empire.

FlyingJesus
08-02-2014, 09:05 PM
That was to stop the slave trade, not slavery itself. Very different kettle of fish. America and Mexico beat us to actual abolition by quite a way

The Don
08-02-2014, 09:47 PM
That was to stop the slave trade, not slavery itself. Very different kettle of fish. America and Mexico beat us to actual abolition by quite a way

Genuine question because i'm not clued up on this topic, why would they want to stop the slave trade? Obviously it's morally terrible but if they didn't want to stop slavery, why stop the trade itself?

FlyingJesus
08-02-2014, 09:59 PM
Guess they realised it wasn't very nice to tear people from their homeland and send them halfway across the world to die but didn't want to give up their easy lifestyles

e5
08-02-2014, 10:01 PM
I'm like WELL IF THEY WANNA BE LIKE THAT FINE but then again, the independence aint gonna benefit us :(

Yawn
08-02-2014, 10:02 PM
as i read the thread title a scottish dancer came on icarly

FREAKY

Edited by Nick (Forum Super Moderator): Please don't post offtopic.

Thomas.
09-02-2014, 06:26 PM
Sorry, It is a country. I meant to put 'should Scotland be independent'

Ardemax
09-02-2014, 09:15 PM
Can't see independence being a good thing for either side.

Southe,
09-02-2014, 11:11 PM
So looks like I'm the only Yes voter around here.

dbgtz
10-02-2014, 12:40 AM
So looks like I'm the only Yes voter around here.

Why are you though?

FlyingJesus
10-02-2014, 12:42 AM
I say yes and they can take Newcastle with them

Southe,
10-02-2014, 12:22 PM
Why are you though?

Because i hate the English and want to watch Braveheart everyday. Just kidding.

I want Scotland to be an independent country, I'm proud to be Scottish and i believe that Scotland is more than capable of looking after itself. I'm no fan of Alex Salmond and will most likely vote elsewhere when we get independence(have to think positive) but he is right in the fact David Cameron should come to Scotland and debate with him. Regarding his message of getting the rest of the UK to tell us to stay I've had more positive people tell me to vote yes then tell me to stay/get lost.

Project Fear have done nothing to question my choice and I've noticed daily more and more people are siding with Yes or are starting to question Better Together, Sure the white paper has been called a "wish list" by many but it is still more than Project Fear have done. All they seem to do is chirp in "no you can't" "you can't do that" "that wouldn't work" etc.

I'm sure I read the other week that the man who helped the UK and other countries into the EU said Scotland would get into the EU no problem. Where as Project Fear just say we can't but at the same time can't tell us if the UK will still be in the EU in 5 years time.


Seen this earlier on.
http://nationalcollective.com/2014/02/10/support-for-scottish-independence-grows-among-progressive-england/



Some bad language


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjbuTckpcDI




18th September 2014
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Daniel-Bryan-Yes-Cheer.gif (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=QcUdXZHC0GEcOM&tbnid=vr9wQPuRHe8pgM:&ved=0CAgQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgifrific.com%2Fdaniel-bryan-yes-chant%2F&ei=QMP4UtrEDMKThgec0oCACg&psig=AFQjCNG-3TPUTZaxhl6d0CtOPZDrOD6GIw&ust=1392121024287665)

-:Undertaker:-
10-02-2014, 06:12 PM
I'm sure I read the other week that the man who helped the UK and other countries into the EU said Scotland would get into the EU no problem. Where as Project Fear just say we can't but at the same time can't tell us if the UK will still be in the EU in 5 years time.

But why do you want 'independence' from Westminster only to move control over to Brussels? Scottish independence with an entry into the EU will be purely symbolic - you still won't have any control over your fisheries, agriculture, industry, financial regulations, immigration policy or your currency (which you will likely have to join the Eurozone which is a requirement for all new EU members).

So even if you do feel seperate and want Scotland to be making it's own laws (which I have to say it a perfectly rational position if you feel only Scottish and not in the slightest bit British, Scotland can make it on it's own no matter what scaremongering Unionists on my side say) it's pretty pointless unless you also exit the European Union.

It'd be out of the frying pan and into the fire as they say.

soaf
06-03-2014, 03:10 PM
I am cuttrntly saying No indepentent because Half of USA states/countries are indepentent and I really sure we don't want like 300 of them at all

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