Does rape culture exist or is it a feminist fantasy?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Does rape culture exist or is it a feminist fantasy?


http://cdn.thewire.com/media/img/upload/wire/2014/04/11/Screen_Shot_2014_04_11_at_10.09.37_AM/lead_large.png


The definition of rape culture is a society in which rape is normalised and results in victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivialising rape and the denial of widespread rape. It is a feminist theory which is highly controversial but which has come to prominence on the internet in recent years due to movements on social sites such as tumblr as well as songs such as Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines which was even banned by a number of British universities.

But does rape culture exist in western society to you? Does rape culture even make sense? Is rape in our society viewed as something to be mocked or is it infact taken seriously by society as a whole? Does the feminist movement in pushing rape culture have a vendetta against straight, white, western men?


There are plenty of nifty prizes to be won within this forum and we have some new awards and prizes to be won in this forum and beyond. Focus on putting a good argument forward, try to be controversial and you'll be rewarded!

The debate is open to you.

[FlyingJesus]

Rape culture does exist but only within the American prison system - which is where the phrase was actually coined before feminists appropriated it to suit their victim complexes. Outside of that system society quite clearly views rape as among the worst things you can do to a person, even trumping murder, so quite clearly we do not in any way live in a culture that is pro-rape, and certainly not when females are the victims

[CaptainKilt]

However, there are several facets of life that would, in a sense, overlook at or thoughts or jokes around rape. Making jokes that allude to or even mention rape can all be examples of foster a rape culture. By allowing things like rape to be funny or used in a humour context you allow yourself to view something such as a rape as a joke or you normalize it. Thus creating a rape culture.

In regards to the alienation of white western males that the OP mentioned... The "Feminist movement" doesn't involve jut women. All and any individual can be a feminist or a part of the feminist movement. All feminism is is the desire for equal rights between all gender and non-gender identifying individuals regardless of what that gender or non-gender may be. (Now this is just one of many definitions however continues to be the most prominent and popular.)

[GommeInc]

Quite an interesting debate. University feminist groups are really deluded finding any excuse to assume a woman's liberty is being eroded by men, but outside of Universities it seems this culture that women are victims doesn't really exist.

Neo-feminists are incredibly dangerous, not to others but to themselves, using rape culture as a tool degrading not only themselves but the very crime they're worried about. For example, at my University there was an event called "50 Shades of Glitter" and women started saying it is a disgusting name hinting to sexual assault or degrading behaviour, despite it being a popular event and obviously the book which it shares only the name with involved a consenting woman wanting to experiment with S&M etc. Crying wolf despite no reason to do so!

Of course you should stamp out sexual harassment, but when you start suggesting this morally, physically and mentally destroying crime in conversation, you begin to degrade the crime itself. It's like bringing up Nazism or Hitler in a debate about eroding civil liberties - you're only making Nazism seem like it wasn't really as much as those millions of people who suffered directly or indirectly from it made it out to be. They make it seem like they were making a fuss about nothing. Discussing rape and desensitising people from it works from both sides, by crying rape when it isn't relevant to prove a point, to joking around about it.

As far as my experience goes, there is a line to be drawn between feminism and sexism as the two are not the same. Quite a lot of feminist activism is just female sexism in sheep clothing, by women who simply hate men or find any excuse to cry foul play despite no obvious intention or behaviour. I seem to notice a lot of these sorts of feminist suffer from general social anxiety and have openly admitted to, which in serious debates if they begin to lose tend to victimise themselves which results in acting repressed, which when talking to men usually results in sexist remarks. It's quite dangerous.

These "safe space" things that seem to pop-up are one thing I really do not like in principle, where groups in a "minority" have a space to discuss matters, despite it really just being segregation harvesting hate towards this apparent "majority" and causing unnecessary conflict. I don't think these help at all either. If you're mixing with your own kind, how to expect integration and sharing views developing understanding? You're just harvesting hate where it is unwanted.

If women want to be treated fairly or as equals, do not segregate yourselves from others and simply get involved as it only boosts understanding from these apparently evil men. How can your voices be heard if you shut it behind a closed door away from those who ought to hear it? It's madness.

I think anyone with sense ignores this concept of rape culture, as it doesn't exist and is used by idiots to make a point which they can't even find. Blurred Lines isn't about rape - unless you make mountains out of mole hills, take 1 + 1 and make 3, and any other metaphor for thinking too much by blurring the lines of reality and fiction.

[FlyingJesus]

However, there are several facets of life that would, in a sense, overlook at or thoughts or jokes around rape. Making jokes that allude to or even mention rape can all be examples of foster a rape culture. By allowing things like rape to be funny or used in a humour context you allow yourself to view something such as a rape as a joke or you normalize it. Thus creating a rape culture.

By that logic we live in an epidemic murder culture and everyone supports murder, because the prevalence of people saying "I'll kill you if..." or "I'd kill for..." and the such likes is far greater than people making rape jokes, which society at large sees as disgusting and unwarranted.

As for feminism being about equality, I tend to look at what a movement does rather than just what it says

[Joe]

However, there are several facets of life that would, in a sense, overlook at or thoughts or jokes around rape. Making jokes that allude to or even mention rape can all be examples of foster a rape culture. By allowing things like rape to be funny or used in a humour context you allow yourself to view something such as a rape as a joke or you normalize it. Thus creating a rape culture.

I disagree entirely. Comedy is, most of the time, used as a medium to make fun of some of the things that scare you or worry you about life, and I think rape is one of these things. Just because I hear a joke about rape or make one myself, doesn't mean I, in any way, condone nor agree with it. It in no way normalises it, in fact I think hearing a joke about it and therefore considering it acceptable is a human fault on their part, or even a poor upbringing.

I'm not part of a rape culture just because I've made a joke about it. There's no such thing as a rape culture in my opinion, just the world a messed up place because the people in it have "blurred lines" between what's right and what's wrong. I can make a joke about rape and still hate even the slightest thought about it, because my head's in the right place and my morals are set in the stone.


Of course you should stamp out sexual harassment, but when you start suggesting this morally, physically and mentally destroying crime in conversation, you begin to degrade the crime itself.


I really do agree with you. For example, using something you’ve mentioned, a few people at my college discussed Fifty Shades when it came out as degrading and almost promoting this rape culture. What I don’t fully understand that what happens if a female (or anyone for that matter, only using a female because of the people who said it originally) want’s to experiment with different things sexually and, therefore, getting themselves into situations such as the subject of the Fifty Shades trilogy. That is not rape. Without going into too much graphic detail we all know that the style of experimentation promotes leadership and command.

Just to add to the debate too, the more things are targeted as part of a rape culture the easier it gets to do, because people become used to it and, although deluded, are susceptible to the media, and the more they hear the word “rape” the more interested they get.

[FlyingJesus]

Fifty Shades is absolutely about a series of rapes, it completely ignores all of the safeguards of genuine BDSM relationships and focuses entirely on power play and coercion which is 100% not what that lifestyle is supposed to be about. BDSM as a whole is not rape behaviour, but the things taking place in Fifty Shades of Grey certainly are

[CaptainKilt]

It's interesting that you both deny a Rape Culture yet both think jokes about rape are ok. (That's what I've understood anyways, please do correct me if I am wrong.) This in itself seems to foster a "Rape Culture" per say. What making a joke about rape does is trivialize it, this is inherently giving off the message that you are ok with rape enough to joke about it. This can be harmful not only for the idea of a rape culture existing but to victims of rape, sexual violence, or sexual assault by triggering harmful elements of their lives. This in itself signifies to those individuals that rape is something that can be joked about. That rape can be funny.

An interesting quote to better understand what exactly can and is commonly included within the idea of Rape Culture.

"Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.” http://www.wavaw.ca/what-is-rape-culture/

Even the usage of the word rape for things other than sexual violence can be contributing to a rape culture. ie. Individuals playing sports, video games, or any other competition telling an another individual that they "will rape them" in the sense of destroy and crush. The usage of this word in those contexts is rape culture.

To address a specific point by Joe; Just because you consider your morals to be right and to be of a right head space doesn't mean all others do. You can't apply concepts such as rape culture entirely to yourself because it does;t have to do with you. It has to do with society as a whole! Just something to think of when discussing these sort of topics.

[Inseriousity.]

An academic discussion about the term 'rape culture' does not perhaps do justice to the components of said title that Dan highlighted: victim blaming, sexual objectification etc. My first instinct to this question was 'no because rape culture is too strong. Rape is too horrendous a crime to be normalised' but that really ignores that the components that feminists use to define it are evident in society. Victim blaming and the sexual objectification of women, in particular, are normalised in lad culture and while it's wrong to say that's rape, it can lead to a culture where women are seen as second best rather than equals.

Rape culture, meh too strong (although brand management is an important tool activists need. They need to be controversial and simplify things down to soundbites to gain attention or generate debate). The components of "rape culture," maybe they're onto something there.

[Joe]

CaptainKilt;

I wouldn't perhaps say that jokes about rape are okay, but neither will they make be flinch or question myself. I think its obvious we have a total difference of opinion in the way a rape culture is presented. You evidently believe it exists and I don't. My question is how does a rape culture come about without people being in the right head space with the correct morals?

You bring up my point about me considering I have the correct morals, maybe I generalised that a little too much and it sounded pretentious, apologies. I meant to specify that my morals about rape are in the right place: it's wrong, disgusting and horrific. I think even the mere possibility of a rape culture will always stem from the specific person and how deluded they are and how out of touch with reality they are.

My main problem with your point is the fact you mention so much about rape being mentioned anywhere will promote it. Going back to a previous point made by FlyingJesus;, if rape works in this way, then surely other crimes such as murder are now a culture then, are they? With that mentality going through life, everything will be, and is, a culture in it's own way.

[GommeInc]

Fifty Shades is absolutely about a series of rapes, it completely ignores all of the safeguards of genuine BDSM relationships and focuses entirely on power play and coercion which is 100% not what that lifestyle is supposed to be about. BDSM as a whole is not rape behaviour, but the things taking place in Fifty Shades of Grey certainly are
I've never seen or read it but from what I understood from those that have is that she was finding herself in a mum porn sort of way. She's an innocent woman who had never done it and met someone who is also innocent but isn't all at the same time, and does like to do that sort of thing and has a dodgy background story where mum's seem to come over all maternal and care about him, despite his flaws.

It seemed consensual but it might be one of those books where it can be either way. All I know is that it is poorly written.

[FlyingJesus]

It's written by someone who knows as much about BDSM as Freddie Mercury does about safe sex, which is why there are so many problems in the supposed portrayal of such a relationship. The only people I know who thought it was any good are people who still get excited by the word nipple :P


@CaptainKilt (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=113410); when quoting someone as a supposed authority on a matter it's a good idea to make sure that they aren't lying through their teeth in the very first sentence on the page, and aren't claiming that all sexual violence is male on female

[GommeInc]

These are the sorts of people who give feminism a bad name:

Bahar Mustafa: Goldsmiths Students' Union diversity officer to keep her job after vote of no confidence petition fails (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bahar-mustafa-goldsmiths-university-diversity-officer-keeps-her-job-after-vote-of-no-confidence-petition-fails-10277562.html)

Particular reference should be to these paragraphs:

The petition calling for Ms Mustafa's removal from her post alleged she had "used hate speech based on race and gender".

It read: "For example, the consistent use of hashtags such as #killallwhitemen and #misandry, and publicly calling someone 'white trash' under the official GSU Welfare and Diversity Officer Twitter account."

Ms Mustafa has said her use of the term "white trash" on an official account had been "not professional".

But she also said the use on her personal account of hashtags such as #killallwhitemen were "in-jokes and ways that many people in the queer feminist community express ourselves".

"It's a way of reclaiming the power from the trauma many of us experience as queers, women, people of colour, who are on the receiving end of racism, misogyny and homophobia daily," she said.

A comment on reddit perfectly summed it up.
"social justice FTW. rich white girl pretending to be oppressed"

[The Don]

These are the sorts of people who give feminism a bad name:

Bahar Mustafa: Goldsmiths Students' Union diversity officer to keep her job after vote of no confidence petition fails (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bahar-mustafa-goldsmiths-university-diversity-officer-keeps-her-job-after-vote-of-no-confidence-petition-fails-10277562.html)

Particular reference should be to these paragraphs:

The petition calling for Ms Mustafa's removal from her post alleged she had "used hate speech based on race and gender".

It read: "For example, the consistent use of hashtags such as #killallwhitemen and #misandry, and publicly calling someone 'white trash' under the official GSU Welfare and Diversity Officer Twitter account."

Ms Mustafa has said her use of the term "white trash" on an official account had been "not professional".

But she also said the use on her personal account of hashtags such as #killallwhitemen were "in-jokes and ways that many people in the queer feminist community express ourselves".

"It's a way of reclaiming the power from the trauma many of us experience as queers, women, people of colour, who are on the receiving end of racism, misogyny and homophobia daily," she said.

A comment on reddit perfectly summed it up.
"social justice FTW. rich white girl pretending to be oppressed"

It's ridiculous. Unfortunately i'm not that shocked anymore as it's becoming more and more common. If I remember correctly an active user on this forum also shares that idiots same views on racism (that minorities can't be racist). It's like they think they can just change the definition of the word to suit their deranged ideology.

On topic: I don't really think a few people joking about something means we live in a culture that accepts it. People joke about all sorts of depraved topics that they disagree with. It's insensitive, I guess, but that definitely doesn't mean our society condones it.

[FlyingJesus]

Interesting bit of news today; the ONLY men's shelter for rape/DV victims in the UK has had its government funding taken away. But of course, it's the rape of women that's seen as unimportant in our society, right?

[GommeInc]

Interesting bit of news today; the ONLY men's shelter for rape/DV victims in the UK has had its government funding taken away. But of course, it's the rape of women that's seen as unimportant in our society, right?
Saw that earlier. Survivors UK isn't it? It's disgusting they have had their funding cut when they have seen a 120% raise in reports. Their priorities are all wrong.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah that's the one, and supposedly the overall funds allocated to those groups has been increased, so there really is no excuse whatsoever except that they know they can get away with it

[GommeInc]

Hopefully this is just a re-shaping exercise of the way in which men can see help and a new service will replace it because of a merger with other services. If not, something has seriously gone wrong.

EDIT: Apparently this has nothing to do with the General Election, but was done by Boris Johnson as, for reasons unknown, London was funding it so he just decided to cut funding today of all days. It makes you wonder why a national charity helping people in and out of London was funded by London in the first place :S

[CaptainKilt]

Joe, But by making rape jokes and you are implying that those jokes are funny and through that that rape can be funny. I feel like this is something we will likely agree isn't (I also don't want this to come off as personal in anyway!) They may not make you flinch or question yourself however others, as I said earlier, may not have the same morals as you, they may not have the same clear head of not having those elements effect you. I feel that largely that is the issue and that is a component that leads into the idea of Rape Culture.

Also, as far as I understand the debate is whether or not rape culture exists. So the fact that we both have differing views is something I think we could and should break down more and discuss, that is if you have time and are interested.

Further, I wouldn't disagree with the murder culture idea. But that doesn't make rape culture or any other forum of culture less prominent or less important. Of course there are an infinite number of different cultures, every single one of our interactions in life with anything consists of a culture of some sort.

The difference is is that some cultures are ok and can be beneficial to society and some are not and should be actively pursued against (ie. Rape and murder etc...)

FlyingJesus,

I didn't quote the website, I quoted a quote that was posted on the website. I agree with that specific quote, not necessarily with the website. I am a huge proponent of ensuring that male sexual assault is not forgotten in the midst as well. However, female sexual assault happens a drastically large amount more than any other form of sexual assault. Looking at the larger context of the article you will also realize that the quote I posted is not by the author of the post, or article it is in fact by a different individual all together.

I also implore you to understand the differences between men and women that has come from rape culture and the ideas of rape culture, regardless if it exists or not. For example, I assume for the most part you feel rather comfortable walking down the street by yourself, regardless of night or day. For many women this is not the case, for many women it is a constant background thought that something may happen to them while alone on the street. The fact that that exists in itself is rape culture. That we allow women to even feel that way when walking down the street by themselves.

This is just one example of many times in life that rape culture can and does appear.

[FlyingJesus]

I didn't quote the website

Yes you did, you even linked it


I am a huge proponent of ensuring that male sexual assault is not forgotten in the midst as well. However, female sexual assault happens a drastically large amount more than any other form of sexual assault.

Incorrect, prison rape of males alone outweighs all non-prison rape, and outside of prison approximately 40% of cases where a person is forced into sexual activity are cases of female-on-male attacks. You're stating things that you clearly have not researched beyond listening to what people tend to believe


I also implore you to understand the differences between men and women that has come from rape culture and the ideas of rape culture, regardless if it exists or not. For example, I assume for the most part you feel rather comfortable walking down the street by yourself, regardless of night or day. For many women this is not the case, for many women it is a constant background thought that something may happen to them while alone on the street.

Absolute nonsense. Someone FEELING a certain way is not indicative of truth at all - the reality of the situation is that men have far more to fear walking around alone at night, because the vast vast vast majority of all attacks in public places, sexual or otherwise, are aimed at males. Facts are more important than feelings, and the reason women may feel more threatened (quite irrationally in most cases) is because they're told to by people like you who quite obviously view them as walking victims rather than people who are capable of taking in a statistical fact and working with it as they choose to. This is not rape culture, this is self victimisation culture

[CaptainKilt]

FlyingJesus; Could you provide some citations for these statistics that you seem to have?

You're right I linked a specific page on the website when referring to a quote. However, the specific context of which was being presented was not the website. It was the quote. I think that's rather obvious.

Again, asking for a source or a citation, you assume I haven't done outside research on this topic and are claiming some pretty extreme things that I feel many people would disagree with.

With your final paragraph, that claim within itself is an example or a "Rape Culture". I have very very rarely walked down the street at anytime of the day or night and felt that I was in real danger. You seem to really love facts! However, I've yet to see a source for your facts and I find this troubling when saying such controversial things without some sort of backing from a proper source.

[FlyingJesus]

You're still trying to claim that feeling a certain way is indicative of reality... Irrational fears don't exist? Ok well anyway here you go

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/systemic-gendered-violence/
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
(http://www.csulb.edu/%7Emfiebert/assault.htm) http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/Dutton_GenderParadigmInDV-Pt1.pdf
http://lab.drdondutton.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Dutton-D.G.-Corvo-K.-2007-The-Duluth-Program_-A-flawed-and-data-impervious-paradigm.pdf
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf (http://pubpages.unh.edu/%7Emas2/ID45-PR45.pdf)
http://www.kidscape.org.uk/assets/downloads/Femalesexualabuseofchildren.pdf
Transcript of a talk on how males are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked, with sources for stats

http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/12/15/us-federal-statistics-show-widespread-prison-rape
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
Prison rape as a widespread problem and one that's massively overlooked - the actual existence of a rape culture, not "oh my that chap looked at me"

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/manufacturing-female-victimhood-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/
Source of sexual assault figures and article analysing the raw data to show that female-on-male rape rates in at 40% of all cases if you don't hide your head in the sand and pretend that it can't happen (and another more in-depth reasoning here (http://permutationofninjas.org/post/57003274589/gender-symmetry-in-sexual-assault-an-analysis-of))

And if you're actually interested in learning about this subject rather than just wanting to be right, here's an absolutely fantastic essay (http://permutationofninjas.org/post/35653709672/rape-culture-101-debunked) debunking the many claims of "rape culture" in the West. I'm not saying anything extreme at all, it's just that the majority of people are happy to simply believe that women are victims and men are aggressors without ever actually looking into any figures, which is a very dangerous way to make decisions on what to think

[buttons]

However, there are several facets of life that would, in a sense, overlook at or thoughts or jokes around rape. Making jokes that allude to or even mention rape can all be examples of foster a rape culture. By allowing things like rape to be funny or used in a humour context you allow yourself to view something such as a rape as a joke or you normalize it. Thus creating a rape culture.

In regards to the alienation of white western males that the OP mentioned... The "Feminist movement" doesn't involve jut women. All and any individual can be a feminist or a part of the feminist movement. All feminism is is the desire for equal rights between all gender and non-gender identifying individuals regardless of what that gender or non-gender may be. (Now this is just one of many definitions however continues to be the most prominent and popular.)
uhh many of the people making rape jokes are rape victims/survivors. it can be a coping mechanism and no-one has a right to deny them of that. i don't mind people making rape jokes and i find "daddy issues" or "absent father" jokes hilarious.

[GommeInc]

uhh many of the people making rape jokes are rape victims/survivors. it can be a coping mechanism and no-one has a right to deny them of that. i don't mind people making rape jokes and i find "daddy issues" or "absent father" jokes hilarious.
Precisely. It is why you get black comedians joking about racism and white supremacy when they have been the victim of it. It makes the actual racists (or rapists) seem pathetic, which helps those making the jokes feel better because they know they are better than their attackers.

[FlyingJesus]

Woman supposedly attacked at feminist rally (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/woman-holds-sign-at-feminist-rally-saying-there-is-no-rape-culture-in-the-west-10310370.html) for holding up a sign stating that rape culture is not a thing in the west, plenty of "BUT I GOT CATCALLED" responses on facebook but no-one actually able to counter the point that we don't have rallies against murder culture or theft culture or any other widespread crime - which realistically shows that rape is the one crime so reviled that if anything we live in an abundant consent culture

[The Don]

Woman supposedly attacked at feminist rally (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/woman-holds-sign-at-feminist-rally-saying-there-is-no-rape-culture-in-the-west-10310370.html) for holding up a sign stating that rape culture is not a thing in the west, plenty of "BUT I GOT CATCALLED" responses on facebook but no-one actually able to counter the point that we don't have rallies against murder culture or theft culture or any other widespread crime - which realistically shows that rape is the one crime so reviled that if anything we live in an abundant consent culture

I agree with your view on the topic itself but i think it's slightly disingenuous to make a point based on the lack of protest over other severe crimes.

[FlyingJesus]

Why? It shows that we clearly don't tolerate rape at all, so we obviously aren't in any way part of a rape culture

[The Don]

Why? It shows that we clearly don't tolerate rape at all, so we obviously aren't in any way part of a rape culture

Not really as i'd wager the people campaigning against 'rape culture' are a negligible minority when talking about society in general so it's a bit of a stretch to draw any comparison over

[FlyingJesus]

Society in general does abhor rape though, to the point where it's considered shocking to say something like "I'll rape you!" but not "I'll kill you!" even if both are very clearly hyperbole, and no-one seriously suggests that we live in a society that promotes murder for it

[The Don]

Society in general does abhor rape though, to the point where it's considered shocking to say something like "I'll rape you!" but not "I'll kill you!" even if both are very clearly hyperbole, and no-one seriously suggests that we live in a society that promotes murder for it

Yeah I agree about society abhorring rape in general although a lot of people do use rape in slang. For example in the context of winning/beating someone else on something such as "I raped nick on fifa last night!". The point I was trying to make was that the fact that rape is campaigned against more than all other crimes doesn't make arguments about rape culture itself invalid. We have a society that campaigns heavily against bullying too, to the point of having an annual 'anti-bullying' week in schools. Clearly bullying still exists and I would even say a 'bullying culture' exists in schools due to the sheer amount of people that either passively participate or idly sit by and do nothing. The fact that bullying is campaigned against doesn't remove the fact that it exists and is very much a part of school culture, much the same that the fact there are more people actively campaigning against a 'rape culture' than any other crime doesn't invalidate the argument, the fact that they're wrong does :P