EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's more from The Sun this morning on the Queen and the EU.

The Sun has more evidence to back its claim that The Queen backs #Brexit https://t.co/hkJ1AluO2V via @tnewtondunn pic.twitter.com/1s3XjRddJN

— Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧 (@montie) March 11, 2016

Tony Benn (d. 2014) was the former - Labour - Secretary of State for Industry and of Energy.

[scottish]

Norway has said it would invest possibly even more in Britain if we left the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ch-Norway.html

That's strange. From reading posts in this thread from some you'd be led to believe anyone outside the EU was poor.



Right.

And how exactly has non-EU Switzerland blocked from "recruiting the best minds to perform" science & research?

That's not what it says

‘We will continue to be a significant investor in the UK at about the same level as we are today and probably even increasing our investments there no matter what happens,’ he said.

Does not equal

Norway has said it would invest possibly even more in Britain if we left the EU.

or, in that case... Norway has said it would invest possibly even more in Britain if we stay in the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@scottish; we can read what it says hence why i put the word possibly into the sentence. :|

"Norway has said it would invest possibly even more in Britain if we left the EU."

they're the ones making claims about what will happen so i am pointing out how the Norwegian SWF has said investment could possibly increase despite all their doom and gloom predictions. i've never personally said investment will increase in the event of an exit but rather i am simply dispelling the scare stories of the other side. investment, as the Norwegian guy says, will stay same or even increase. it all depends on favourable market conditions, not a political union which is my entire point.

if it wasn't for others in the thread using that fear argument, i wouldn't feel the need to even combat it [investment] as it isn't really related to the EU.

[FlyingJesus]

And how exactly has non-EU Switzerland blocked from "recruiting the best minds to perform" science & research?

In exactly the way Hawking warned we would be, by not having our students and institutions considered part of the ERASMUS programme. All your gish galloping doesn't change the original point

[-:Undertaker:-]

In exactly the way Hawking warned we would be, by not having our students and institutions considered part of the ERASMUS programme. All your gish galloping doesn't change the original point

I ask or "gish gallop" because a quick check would show you that the following non-EU countries take part in Erasmus.....

Turkey, Iceland, Macedonia, Liechtenstein and Norway are all part of the Erasmus scheme yet are not in the European Union.

Switzerland also took part in the programme until a few years ago but I still see no evidence this has hurt Switzerland in any form.


So your 'original point' is a misguided one because EU membership is not a requirement to take part in this particular student exchange scheme. Sorry.

[FlyingJesus]

They were kicked out of it for not following the EU line on immigration, and a gish gallop isn't about asking questions it's about how you constantly bring up points no-one's disputing or cares about to drown out whatever the discussion started as. The only way to retain the benefits of the EU (and whether or not they outweigh the negatives isn't the point here) is to remain within it, or at least to do as they say from the outside which is obviously no different. That aside, this particular branch of discussion budded from the very weird suggestion that we couldn't possibly be left out of Erasmus because currently we benefit from it

I'll grant that there's probably not been a lot of difference seen in Switzerland yet considering it's been one academic term since the change, you can take that as a victory if you're desperate I guess

[-:Undertaker:-]

They were kicked out of it for not following the EU line on immigration, and a gish gallop isn't about asking questions it's about how you constantly bring up points no-one's disputing or cares about to drown out whatever the discussion started as. The only way to retain the benefits of the EU (and whether or not they outweigh the negatives isn't the point here) is to remain within it, or at least to do as they say from the outside which is obviously no different. That aside, this particular branch of discussion budded from the very weird suggestion that we couldn't possibly be left out of Erasmus because currently we benefit from it

That is just incorrect.

As I point out, there are other member states taking part in Erasmus which are not only not in the EU but also not in the EEA or even EFTA (Turkey).

But even if it were true, let us just say it suddenly became EU-exclusive, there's nothing to stop us and others setting up bi-lateral exchange schemes.

I'll grant that there's probably not been a lot of difference seen in Switzerland yet considering it's been one academic term since the change, you can take that as a victory if you're desperate I guess

Thank you.

I would hope after we've left we continue to take part in Erasmus (and think we will) but if not then it isn't the end of the world. There are other options.

[FlyingJesus]

Why does it always come down to speculation and hope? That's not an argument it's rhetoric, and it's worrying how invested in a cause (one way or the other) some people will get without any sort of proof of the outcome. Dangerous, reactionary thinking which encourages change for the sake of change

[-:Undertaker:-]

Why does it always come down to speculation and hope? That's not an argument it's rhetoric, and it's worrying how invested in a cause (one way or the other) some people will get without any sort of proof of the outcome. Dangerous, reactionary thinking which encourages change for the sake of change

It's hope and logic based on reason given there are five other non-EU countries in the scheme.

Even if Erasmus was EU-only countries I don't believe Erasmus is worth the price of national independence and democracy, but you wanted to debate it.

[FlyingJesus]

No I wanted to question the idea that us doing well right now means we wouldn't be kicked out of Erasmus