EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[The Don]

So I will ask the question once again which you keep dodging, why does tiny non-EU Switzerland have an FTA with China and the EU does not?

Straight from the horses mouth:

Yet while China has made good progress in implementing its WTO commitments, there are still outstanding problems.
• EU Ambassador Pangratis' statement of 1 July 2014 at China's WTO TPRM peer review
The EU's concerns include:
• lack of transparency
• industrial policies and non-tariff measures in China which may discriminate against foreign companies
• a strong degree of government intervention in the economy, resulting in a dominant position of state-owned enterprises, and unequal access to subsidies and cheap financing
• inadequate protection and enforcement of intellectual property rights in China

It's all very well saying Britain has more weight and influence as part of this bloc but the evidence does not support your argument my friend.

Are you seriously saying that Britain would be more influential outside the EU? Don’t be ridiculous Dan, literally the biggest load of crock I’ve heard you say.

And? You've just admitted above that Britain could make it's own trade agreements so what is the issue?

It would take years of renegotiating deals that we already have. There’s literally no reason to go through all that uncertainty when we already have it. You have yet to provide a reason to justify this other than whataboutism’s in regards to Switzerland.

Oh no not these terrible public relations phrases again from the Nick Clegg speech book. "Around the table" "Playing our part" "Asserting our influence"

How about arguing the points?

and yet despite all this talk of sitting around the table we've achieved nothing in the European Union and it has kept on travelling in a direction which we do not want. How many years and lost battles in the EU will it take for you to realise that with under 10% of the vote in the EU we're wasting our time?

Canada, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland are all much wealthier and better off without "sitting around the [EU] table".

Their economies are smaller than ours. We are ‘wealthier’ at the table.

As I told you earlier, they sell more to us than we do to them - they rely more on us.

Whilst we may sell more to them than they do to us, we make up a much smaller percentage of their overall economy than they do ours.

We are reliant on them. Don’t try and twist this.

No I am making the argument based on where world trade is going my friend.

No Dan, this argument “Any FTAs signed with Australia, New Zealand and India with the EU - and again I point out how the EU has still not completed these deals - will be poor. “
Is you once again passing off your poorly based opinion as fact.

The EU as a % of wold trade is rapidly declining and world trade is shifting to Asia and the Commonwealth. Although I believe we will leave the EU regardless within the next decade, it is the reason why I want out so badly now because I will be so pissed if people like you keep us in there for another ten years and throw away the opportunities that we have now to sign FTAs with India, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Malaysia and China right now.

World trade is going in the direction of trading unions.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_...erican_Nations

We have FTA’s in the works with most of the countries you’ve listed. I will be pissed if we leave because of people like you spreading lies leaving us unable to secure a deal with the single market. Despite what you claim, that is almost HALF of all our trade. The EU’s market share in a decade from now is irrelevant we rely so heavily on them now.



Now Dan, how about you actually answer the point that we wouldn’t be able to get access to the free market unless we follow EU legislation (in which point there’s no reason leaving)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Are you seriously saying that Britain would be more influential outside the EU? Don’t be ridiculous Dan, literally the biggest load of crock I’ve heard you say.

Absolutely I am saying that.

Not only would be we stronger and more influential such as exercising our power on the World Trade Organisation once again where most trade decisions are actually taken, but we would be able to forge much closer ties and bonds with those nations that have a similar free trade outlook as us as well as sharing the same language, English legal system and global mindset: the Commonwealth. I would be open for example to the idea of a free movement zone between Britain, Australia, New Zealand and America at some point in the future. That's entirely possible and would work quite well.

The Commonwealth is a family of nations which contains over a third of the population of the globe. The potential is huge. Why should Britain lock herself into an outdated and declining bloc? Why should we continue to subsidise the French agricultural industry when we can buy much more cheaply all of our food products from New Zealand and African countries? Not only would that benefit the British consumer, but African farmers and our Commonwealth relationships.

The problem you have is you're stuck in a Little European mindset of the 1970s. Times have moved on and the world is much more global.

It would take years of renegotiating deals that we already have. There’s literally no reason to go through all that uncertainty when we already have it. You have yet to provide a reason to justify this other than whataboutism’s in regards to Switzerland.

And here we go again. Uncertainty. Let's just cancel elections too then because the "uncetainty" of policy changes it just too much to bear.

Their economies are smaller than ours. We are ‘wealthier’ at the table.

Not for much longer. Many of the Commonwealth countries are moving rapidly up the global GDP rankings (India will be in the top three) and Britain is the only European country that is going to remain in the top ten by 2050 - and we are going to overtake Germany itself. You're prepared to turn your back on Australia, Canada, America, India, Malaysia, China, South Africa and others to tie us to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Albania? Where is the logic in it.

And what table? We don't even have a seat at the top table of the WTO because of our EU membership.

Whilst we may sell more to them than they do to us, we make up a much smaller percentage of their overall economy than they do ours.

We are reliant on them. Don’t try and twist this.

I'm not twisting anything. Trade with Europe will continue just we'll go along with what is already happening which is an increasing majority of our trade with the global will be not with Europe but with the Commonwealth and others. As I keep saying, it is already happening whether you want it or not.

No Dan, this argument “Any FTAs signed with Australia, New Zealand and India with the EU - and again I point out how the EU has still not completed these deals - will be poor. “

Is you once again passing off your poorly based opinion as fact.

You had no clue as to the progress of the EU-US FTA and historic UK-NZ trade ties prior to the EEC yet you say I have a poorly based opinion. Right.

World trade is going in the direction of trading unions.

Wrong, again showing ignorance of global trade. It is moving to the WTO. Trade blocs like the European Union are a relic of the past in the post-imperial age when protectionist barriers went up across the globe. It is now easier than ever to do business between London and Shanghai.

http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Glo...ing_blocs.html

We have FTA’s in the works with most of the countries you’ve listed. I will be pissed if we leave because of people like you spreading lies leaving us unable to secure a deal with the single market. Despite what you claim, that is almost HALF of all our trade.

Here he goes again claiming Britain isn't good enough to secure access to the SM when Norway, Switzerland and even Mexico have.

And he accuses my side of spreading lies.

The EU’s market share in a decade from now is irrelevant we rely so heavily on them now.

You know the writing on on the wall you just can't face it because it'd be too much of a climb down.

Within a decade we're looking at the EU accounting for under 40% of our trade and the rest of the world 60%+. Time is on my side.

THIS is our future for the next century.

Commonwealth of Nations

Now Dan, how about you actually answer the point that we wouldn’t be able to get access to the free market unless we follow EU legislation (in which point there’s no reason leaving)

I never understand this rather silly access to the Single Market argument.

If a country trades with another, it has to follow the standards and regulations of that country in order to have access to that market. Chinese goods must conform to British standards in order to be accepted. American goods must conform to Australia standards in order to be sold. So I don't understand how this simple economic fact of life which has existed since the beginning of country-country trade itself then leads you to want to join a political union to do so. That'd be like arguing we should become a state of America because we have to abide by their trade standards when exporting to them... yes and your point is what exactly?

[The Don]

The irony that someone whose entire personal argument for leaving the EU is based on the premise of sovereignty for the sake of sovereignty has the cheek to call my reasons outdated. Here you go mate, take a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality.

Hear that everyone? We should leave the EU, our most important trading partner (half of all our trade), to start the same sort of thing with commonwealth countries, Ridiculous. I'm sure the same countries that are having referendums on their flags so they looks less identical than ours, or petitions to remove the queen as their heads of state, will want such an organisation. :rolleyes:

You're living in the past, we're no longer the worlds strongest power, we don't have the empire anymore, whilst it's clear you want to rebuild it through the commonwealth with Britain at the top, this is unrealistic. The only way Britain is remaining relevant on a global scale is through that of the EU. Even you know we need to be part of something bigger hence your commonwealth point.

Unfortunately Dan, from an economic point, we’re much better off in the EU, as part of the worlds strongest economy.

Within a decade we're looking at the EU accounting for under 40% of our trade and the rest of the world 60%+. Time is on my side.

So with this prediction the EU still accounts for almost HALF our trade, and the REST OF THE WORLD constitutes 60%? You’re reinforcing my point more than anything. Clearly the EU will be our largest single partner for many years to come, we’re better off in.

- - - Updated - - -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._GDP_(nominal)
France, Germany and Italy are all in the worlds top 10 largest economies. The only commonwealth country up there is India lmao

[-:Undertaker:-]

I love how just after arguing we should re-engage with the global Commonwealth (Africa, Asia, Americas) he accuses me of an "Island Mentality". Ironic, really.

The irony that someone whose entire personal argument for leaving the EU is based on the premise of sovereignty for the sake of sovereignty has the cheek to call my reasons outdated. Here you go mate, take a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_mentality.

Democracy and independence aren't outdated ideas.

There are more independent and self-governing nations on the planet right at this moment than there have been in hundreds of years. Why should Britain, an independent nation for nearly a thousand years, end that independence so we can have a useless 8% "say" in the EU. Laughable "influence".

You don't have any faith in this country and you lack backbone or vision. It's quite sad but if we do leave I think you'll realise within two years it was for the best to end a relationship that wasn't working and to seek new opportunities out in the big wide world outside your continental mentality.

Britain ought to be striving for a global mentality which is inherent in our mindsets. Free markets, free trade and free peoples.

Hear that everyone? We should leave the EU, our most important trading partner (half of all our trade)

Let me correct you there.

Less than half our trade. And shrinking. Rapidly.

to start the same sort of thing with commonwealth countries, Ridiculous.

Who said I want to start the same thing with the Commonwealth? I don't want to build a federal political union with our Commonwealth friends, I simply want to trade with them as freely as possible. That's all. The same cannot be said for the EU which is a dangerous (see the Euro) state building project.

I'm sure the same countries that are having referendums on their flags so they looks less identical than ours, or petitions to remove the queen as their heads of state, will want such an organisation. :rolleyes:

And if you notice in each and every referendum our friends in the Commonwealth vote to retain their heritage and shared history with us.

Now if we look at referendums in the EU when it comes to more European Union... oh dear, in nearly every single one it is rejected. Over and over.

You're living in the past, we're no longer the worlds strongest power, we don't have the empire anymore, whilst it's clear you want to rebuild it through the commonwealth with Britain at the top, this is unrealistic. Even you know we need to be part of something bigger hence your commonwealth point.

Britain isn't at the top of the Commonwealth and cannot be which goes to show you don't even have a clue how the Commonwealth works lol.

The Commonwealth is an organisation of equals and it is all intergovernmental which means there's no ganging up/outvoting via QMV like in the EU.

Our true friends and our future. That is what the next century is going to look like.

The only way Britain is remaining relevant on a global scale is through that of the EU.

lmao. yeah it's nothing to do with us as the world's 5th largest economy, number one financial centre, one of three blue water naval forces, a member of the G10, a potential member of the WTO, a nuclear power, a seat on the UN Security Council. Nooooo without the EU we'd be nothing he tells us.

Unfortunately Dan, from an economic point, we’re much better off in the EU, as part of the worlds strongest economy.

You can keep repeating that but the graphs I have posted and the direction of travel just say the opposite.

Here's another.

So with this prediction the EU still accounts for almost HALF our trade, and the REST OF THE WORLD constitutes 60%? You’re reinforcing my point more than anything. Clearly the EU will be our largest single partner for many years to come, we’re better off in.

The EU isn't a single country/economy what on earth are you talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._GDP_(nominal)
France, Germany and Italy are all in the worlds top 10 largest economies. The only commonwealth country up there is India lmao

Do you think that is going to remain the case in fifteen and twenty five years from now?

As I said on my other post, you're living in the past. Continental mentality from a Little European clinging to the idea of a 1970s trade bloc when the world is moving on and leaving it behind. Whilst the world booms, the EU falling apart at the seams. It's time for Britain to make for the exit.

[The Don]

I love how just after arguing we should re-engage with the global Commonwealth (Africa, Asia, Americas) he accuses me of an "Island Mentality". Ironic, really.

You clearly didn’t even read the definition:

Island mentality refers to the notion of isolated communities perceiving themselves as superior or exceptional to the rest of the world. This term does not directly refer to a geographically confined society, but to the cultural, moral, or ideological superiority of a community lacking social exposure.

I would say that’s pretty spot on.

Democracy and independence aren't outdated ideas.

Of course not, good job we’re having a democratic vote on whether we should remain within the EU. I’m sure you’ll respect the outcome?

Britain ought to be striving for a global mentality which is inherent in our mindsets. Free markets, free trade and free peoples.

We are, which is exactly what the EU is achieving with the multiple FTA’s it has lined up with the likes of the US, Australia, New Zealand, as well as the many it already has. You still have yet to propose an argument as to why we should leave just to renegotiate what we already have. It’s absurd.

Less than half our trade. And shrinking. Rapidly.

In a decade they will still account for almost a half of our trade? That’s hardly rapid. You know how unreliable predictions such as these are, it could be higher, it could be lower.

I don't want to build a federal political union with our Commonwealth friends, I simply want to trade with them as freely as possible. That's all. The same cannot be said for the EU which is a dangerous (see the Euro) state building project.

Then you should be happy we’re getting trade agreements with our commonwealth ‘friends’.

Britain isn't at the top of the Commonwealth and cannot be which goes to show you don't even have a clue how the Commonwealth works lol.

Your proposed commonwealth trade area, not the commonwealth it’s self. Clearly you don’t have a clue how to read.

The EU isn't a single country/economy what on earth are you talking about.

It's a single market. Our largest trading partner for the foreseeable future.

As I said on my other post, you're living in the past. Continental mentality from a Little European clinging to the idea of a 1970s trade bloc when the world is moving on and leaving it behind. Whilst the world booms, the EU falling apart at the seams. It's time for Britain to make for the exit.

The EU has evolved massively from what it was 46 years ago, if you think it has been stagnant for the past half a century then clearly you haven’t been paying attention. It’s funny, what you propose is actually regressive unlike the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I would say that’s pretty spot on.

I do believe common law, trial by jury, the Westminster parliamentary system and English liberty to be superior yes.

But I am sure you disagree and are inches away from throwing the R word at me as it's all you have left. No, you'd much rather subject us to the civil law that they use on the continent and in the EU where you aren't entitled to a jury by your peers and where you can be thrown and left in prison for months on end without a trial or without even being charged with a crime or without the consent of a British judge.

Of course not, good job we’re having a democratic vote on whether we should remain within the EU. I’m sure you’ll respect the outcome?

I'll respect the outcome if we Remain for as long as the EU respects the remainders of our independence and sovereignty.

More power grabs = another referendum. That's why we'll be out within ten years regardless of this referendum, you can bank on it.

We are, which is exactly what the EU is achieving with the multiple FTA’s it has lined up with the likes of the US, Australia, New Zealand, as well as the many it already has. You still have yet to propose an argument as to why we should leave just to renegotiate what we already have. It’s absurd.

He still hasn't even read up on these despite being given the direct links to updates. The US-EU FTA isn't happening.

In a decade they will still account for almost a half of our trade? That’s hardly rapid. You know how unreliable predictions such as these are, it could be higher, it could be lower.

Unrealiable? That's ironic coming from a guy who has been posting through the 13 pages of this thread prediction after prediction of doom & disaster.

Then you should be happy we’re getting trade agreements with our commonwealth ‘friends’.

Not good enough and not fast enough.

The New Zealand figures said it all from something like 60% of trade with the UK down to 6% thanks to the EEC/EU. A disgrace.

Your proposed commonwealth trade area, not the commonwealth it’s self. Clearly you don’t have a clue how to read.

I didn't propose a Commonwealth trade area. I said Commonwealth nations may wish to do some multilateral FTAs (especially the Anglosphere) yet I envisage the Commonwealth working via bilateral FTAs mainly just like the rest of the world does. FTAs are flexible for very different countries.

...whilst looking at the EU and the awful Euro that has brought poverty to millions, you can see the dangers of a one-fits-all size.

It's a single market. Our largest trading partner for the foreseeable future.

The Single Market isn't even complete and isn't going to be completed so wrong again.

The EU has evolved massively from what it was 46 years ago, if you think it has been stagnant for the past half a century then clearly you haven’t been paying attention. It’s funny, what you propose is actually regressive unlike the EU.

Simply bizzare. How can you claim FTAs, which is where the world is moving towards with negotiations taking place at the WTO, are regressive yet you support a trade bloc from the 1950s that was formed to prevent war from Germany and France happening again? The EU is 60 years out of date.

[The Don]

I do believe common law, trial by jury, the Westminster parliamentary system and English liberty to be superior yes.

“perceiving themselves as superior or exceptional to the rest of the world”

But I am sure you disagree and are inches away from throwing the R word at me as it's all you have left. No, you'd much rather subject us to the civil law that they use on the continent and in the EU where you aren't entitled to a jury by your peers and where you can be thrown and left in prison for months on end without a trial or without even being charged with a crime or without the consent of a British judge.

What on earth are you talking about? The R word? You’ve gone mad, mate. You bring up racism more than anybody else here, in fact the last time I ever said that to you must have been years ago. Talk about playing the victim card.

I'll respect the outcome if we Remain for as long as the EU respects the remainders of our independence and sovereignty.

More power grabs = another referendum. That's why we'll be out within ten years regardless of this referendum, you can bank on it.

I’ll hold you to that, although “power grabs” is an incredibly loose term and I suspect you’ll use it at first chance.

He still hasn't even read up on these despite being given the direct links to updates. The US-EU FTA isn't happening.

Citation needed.

Unrealiable? That's ironic coming from a guy who has been posting through the 13 pages of this thread prediction after prediction of doom & disaster.

In a decade they will still account for almost a half of our trade? That’s hardly rapid.

I like how you tried to gloss over this point.

Not good enough and not fast enough.

And it’ll be even longer if we leave the EU and have to restart negotiations.

The Single Market isn't even complete and isn't going to be completed so wrong again.

wot

Simply bizzare. How can you claim FTAs, which is where the world is moving towards with negotiations taking place at the WTO, are regressive yet you support a trade bloc from the 1950s that was formed to prevent war from Germany and France happening again? The EU is 60 years out of date.

It’s not the FTA’s which are regressive, it’s you wanting to cancel all of them and start again. That’s the literal definition of what regression is.

Any arguments yet other than sovereignty?

[FlyingJesus]

Why should Britain lock herself into an outdated and declining bloc?

What like the Commonwealth

I'll respect the outcome if we Remain for as long as the EU respects the remainders of our independence and sovereignty.

More power grabs = another referendum. That's why we'll be out within ten years regardless of this referendum, you can bank on it.

So you're saying you want to keep pushing people until you get the answer that you want. I'm sure there's a political institution who you claim to hate for doing that...

I'm not even pro-EU but this is stupid

[-:Undertaker:-]

I’ll hold you to that, although “power grabs” is an incredibly loose term and I suspect you’ll use it at first chance.

Of course I will use it at first chance. The entire campaign the government is fighting as well as your Remain side is on the basis that we've had a successful renegotiation and that we're protected from anymore EU power grabs. Well i'll hold them and you to that line/promise.

Had your side come out and asked the question whether we wanted a federal Europe and ever more powers going to the EU and the public voted yes to that, then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But as you're arguing dishonestly and trying to pretend that it's just a simple trade agreement and Brussels has been stopped from any more power grabs then you must expect if the public do vote to Remain then they have done so on what you have said and/or promised.

Citation needed.

You've had it. LSE article. Read it.

In a decade they will still account for almost a half of our trade? That’s hardly rapid.

Under 40% isn't "almost half".

And it’ll be even longer if we leave the EU and have to restart negotiations.

Ahh yes but see, that is you assuming we're as inflexible and protectionist as the EU is.

The reality is we're not.

wot

Doesn't even understand the Single Market now either.

Didn't you hear what Cameron talked of in his Bloomberg speech? Don't you read what goes on in Brussels?

I repeat. The Single Market is not even completed and is not going to be completed.

It’s not the FTA’s which are regressive, it’s you wanting to cancel all of them and start again. That’s the literal definition of what regression is.

Who said anything about scrapping the existing FTAs? As Britain is a member of the existing FTAs we would likely start with them as a de facto baseline for any trade talks with a lot of potential for widening them once we're free of 28 other highly protectionist countries from any negotiations.

Any arguments yet other than sovereignty?

Sovereignty is the be and and end all of everything.

But I mean I could talk about the collapse of EU borders with jihadists entering Europe, I could talk about 40% youth unemployment in the likes of Greece thanks to the Eurozone, I could talk about the Five Presidents Report which indicates how Britain is going to have even less "influence" by 2025, I could talk about the consequences of completing the Single Market, I could talk about the potential entry of Turkey (a poor country of 80m) into the EU, I could talk about the moves afoot trying to create a federal European army, I could talk about the rise of fascism thanks to the democracy of EU countries being taken away where people are left with no choice as their democratic rights have been transferred to the EU-IMF-WB.

Which one would you like to talk about? I'll let you pick.

What like the Commonwealth

The Commonwealth is declining? whut.

So you're saying you want to keep pushing people until you get the answer that you want. I'm sure there's a political institution who you claim to hate for doing that...

I'm not even pro-EU but this is stupid

We've been promised by the Remain side and the Government that no more powers will be going to Brussels without a referendum.

We'll be out in ten years because this is obviously a lie and because of the implications of the Five Presidents Report in regards to the Eurozone.

[The Don]

Doesn't even understand the Single Market now either.

Didn't you hear what Cameron talked of in his Bloomberg speech? Don't you read what goes on in Brussels?

I repeat. The Single Market is not even completed and is not going to be completed.

"The Single Market refers to the EU as one territory without any internal borders or other regulatory obstacles to the free movement of goods and services. A functioning Single Market stimulates competition and trade, improves efficiency, raises quality, and helps cut prices. The European Single Market is one of the EU’s greatest achievements. It has fuelled economic growth and made the everyday life of European businesses and consumers easier."

Is what I was referring to, and my comment made perfect sense.


Too busy to reply in full at the moment.