EU Referendum Megathread (Brexit)

[scottish]

Pound on another steady decrease today, went from 1.36753 to 1.31709 currently.

rip

[-:Undertaker:-]

Former Governor of the Bank of England, Lord Mervyn King, has said the Remain campaign and Governent treated people "like idiots" over economic "scare stories"

How Osborne can stay in office any longer I have no idea. How can markets have faith in him given his forecasts were completely wrong?

[dbgtz]

What's so hard to understand about the NHS point, I mean really? Vote Leave was a campaign, not a government. It is up to the government which is elected how that £350 million is spent whether it is on defence, the NHS, the police, science, care of the elderly - whatever. You could hardly have a poster listing all the government departments you're going to spend the money on because then it ceases to be a poster and becomes a document. In any case, we're about two years away still from having that £350 million a week back in our pockets and then we can decide as a country how it is spent.

Whether all of it on the NHS or not, at least it will be spent here on our own people.

Aside from the inevitable "it's not £350 million", that's not the point. It was a big chunk of their campaign and yes, right now they don't get to decide where it goes but they're essentially saying it can't be done, similarly to how Dan Hannan has sad that immigration would probably not go down despite that being probably the main reason for most of the leave votes. Yes, he's also not in government but you shouldn't spout shit that you yourself do not believe will happen and will make no attempt to change in the future.

I also want to say, as a quick edit here, are you seriously so hateful of the EU that you will just sit here and defend people misleading and lying others? Whether you like it or not people genuinely believed that there will be £350 million a week which will go to services such as healthcare because they were lead to believe so, now as a result (at least for the short term), people are going to suffer and see absolutely no benefit whatsoever. Before you try and say "oh but Remain lied too", no shit but I'm not defending that.

Oh let's also not forget everyone wanting to be in the single market too...

May was known to want to leave given her time as Home Secretary her hands were tied in being unable to carry out election promises due to EU law on immigration as well as the issue over the deportation of terrorists and criminals. The point is however that whilst her failure as Home Secretary has been due to the fact her hands have been tied by EU law, she should have stuck her neck out on the line like Johnson and especially Gove did (over court supremacy) and campaigned for Leave.

Instead she came out in favour of Remain and sat on her hands. We need a PM with backbone to lead our withdrawal, not a hand sitter.

You seem to be replying as if I'm defending Theresa May; I am not. I am simply saying that Boris did exactly what she has done i.e. what's best for him but you simply don't see that because he's "on your side" (which, he isn't).

[-:Undertaker:-]

Aside from the inevitable "it's not £350 million", that's not the point. It was a big chunk of their campaign and yes, right now they don't get to decide where it goes but they're essentially saying it can't be done, similarly to how Dan Hannan has sad that immigration would probably not go down despite that being probably the main reason for most of the leave votes. Yes, he's also not in government but you shouldn't spout shit that you yourself do not believe will happen and will make no attempt to change in the future.

I haven't really seen much indication that it will not be done, if we were serious about it then the person most likely to implement such a pledge was Boris Johnson MP. If he comes Prime Minister and in two years time does not pledge a substantial amount towards then NHS, then you and I will be able to vote him out which is much better than the current situation where the EU takes most of that money and then spends the rest here with not a care in the world what you and I think. That's what this issue is really about.

On Daniel Hannan MEP again this man is not even in the House of Commons so I have no idea why you are taking everything so seriously, we do not yet know the deal we will reach. My inkling is that we're heading towards EEA membership but with Freedom of Movement ended under such a deal - Andrea Leadsom MP who is a prominent Leave campaigner has stated Freedom of Movement will be ended in the negotiations as has Boris Johnson MP in his Telegraph column. If we can keep full access to the Single Market and curtail Freedom of Movement then that will be ideal, however if the European Union attempts to force FoM in return for full SM access then I suspect - and rightly so - that we shall reject such an offer and take EFTA or a simple FTA which is my ultimate choice.

I do think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here as are some Leavers. It's been 4 days since the referendum and we've 2 years+ to go.

I also want to say, as a quick edit here, are you seriously so hateful of the EU that you will just sit here and defend people misleading and lying others? Whether you like it or not people genuinely believed that there will be £350 million a week which will go to services such as healthcare because they were lead to believe so, now as a result (at least for the short term), people are going to suffer and see absolutely no benefit whatsoever. Before you try and say "oh but Remain lied too", no shit but I'm not defending that.

If the European Union was giving us £350m a week then I would still vote to Leave, I don't know how clear I have to be about this as I always have been. This to me has never been solely about tomato regulations, fish quotas or membership costs: this is about sovereignty and the supremacy of our courts and by voting to Leave my ambition has been achieved now whether or not £350m is spent on the Royal Navy, the NHS or Foreign Aid. It really is of no consequence to myself as I would pay almost any heavy monetary price to have achieved what we have now achieved. This was all about principles, not money.

In terms of any pledges by politicians this is exactly the reason why I wanted our self-government back. Because let's for instance say that a Johnson Ministry doesn't spent the £350 million a week on the NHS - well we can now vote that government out and hold it to account at election time. When the European Union was taking and spending this money, you had no democratic ability to hold it to account nor did I. I have never claimed that by leaving our politicians will suddenly all become salt of the earth characters: they're politicians at the end of the day and you should still distrust them as far as you can throw them. The point is though that you will shortly now have the power to hold them accountable and that's what this is all about.

Oh let's also not forget everyone wanting to be in the single market too...

Single Market access will depend on Freedom of Movement. The country/parliament will not be blackmailed into FoM by the EU in return for full SM access.

Can we have a points-based immigration system and access to the single market?

"You betcha." says @BorisJohnsonhttps://t.co/TGSXLjAGDC

— Channel 4 News (@Channel4News) June 27, 2016

Free trade with the EU will be in all our interests. But essential we agree free movement no longer applies to UK. Confident we can do this

— Andrea Leadsom MP (@andrealeadsom) June 27, 2016

Leadsom is considering a leadership run. There's enough MPs to block any deal allowing FoM and there's Ukip pressure if need be.

You seem to be replying as if I'm defending Theresa May; I am not. I am simply saying that Boris did exactly what she has done i.e. what's best for him but you simply don't see that because he's "on your side" (which, he isn't).

You seem to think I am an avid Boris Johnson MP fan. I'm not. If I had my way, David Davies MP would become Prime Minister as he is much more in line with myself on civil liberties and education than Boris. However, faced between Johnson and May at least Johnson put his neck on the line and helped gain this country's independence and self-government back and for that I really do not mind if he is rewarded for it. May gambled and she lost, tough titty.

[dbgtz]

I haven't really seen much indication that it will not be done, if we were serious about it then the person most likely to implement such a pledge was Boris Johnson MP. If he comes Prime Minister and in two years time does not pledge a substantial amount towards then NHS, then you and I will be able to vote him out which is much better than the current situation where the EU takes most of that money and then spends the rest here with not a care in the world what you and I think. That's what this issue is really about.

On Daniel Hannan MEP again this man is not even in the House of Commons so I have no idea why you are taking everything so seriously, we do not yet know the deal we will reach. My inkling is that we're heading towards EEA membership but with Freedom of Movement ended under such a deal - Andrea Leadsom MP who is a prominent Leave campaigner has stated Freedom of Movement will be ended in the negotiations as has Boris Johnson MP in his Telegraph column. If we can keep full access to the Single Market and curtail Freedom of Movement then that will be ideal, however if the European Union attempts to force FoM in return for full SM access then I suspect - and rightly so - that we shall reject such an offer and take EFTA or a simple FTA which is my ultimate choice.

I do think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here as are some Leavers. It's been 4 days since the referendum and we've 2 years+ to go.

Aside from the fact there isn't £350 million to begin with, should Boris become PM he is very much an advocate of the single market which will cost us a significant chunk still.

Perhaps he's not in the HoC, but he was still very much on the leave side and I believe on the actual campaign. When someone part of a campaign goes back on something they said, it doesn't exactly inspire much hope. Boris is also full of shit so I wouldn't believe a word he said.

I'm not getting ahead of myself when people in the Leave campaign start retracting their statements almost immediately.

If the European Union was giving us £350m a week then I would still vote to Leave, I don't know how clear I have to be about this as I always have been. This to me has never been solely about tomato regulations, fish quotas or membership costs: this is about sovereignty and the supremacy of our courts and by voting to Leave my ambition has been achieved now whether or not £350m is spent on the Royal Navy, the NHS or Foreign Aid. It really is of no consequence to myself as I would pay almost any heavy monetary price to have achieved what we have now achieved. This was all about principles, not money.

In terms of any pledges by politicians this is exactly the reason why I wanted our self-government back. Because let's for instance say that a Johnson Ministry doesn't spent the £350 million a week on the NHS - well we can now vote that government out and hold it to account at election time. When the European Union was taking and spending this money, you had no democratic ability to hold it to account nor did I. I have never claimed that by leaving our politicians will suddenly all become salt of the earth characters: they're politicians at the end of the day and you should still distrust them as far as you can throw them. The point is though that you will shortly now have the power to hold them accountable and that's what this is all about.

You seem to be mistaken about what I'm saying. Whatever your personal reasons are, I'm not fussed. But you're defending people who mislead others who voted leave because of those reasons because it suits you. It's not even really about the EU as a whole, it's about politicians spouting such obvious lies and getting away with it.

Single Market access will depend on Freedom of Movement. The country/parliament will not be blackmailed into FoM by the EU in return for full SM access.

Can we have a points-based immigration system and access to the single market?

"You betcha." says @BorisJohnsonhttps://t.co/TGSXLjAGDC

— Channel 4 News (@Channel4News) June 27, 2016

Free trade with the EU will be in all our interests. But essential we agree free movement no longer applies to UK. Confident we can do this

— Andrea Leadsom MP (@andrealeadsom) June 27, 2016

Leadsom is considering a leadership run. There's enough MPs to block any deal allowing FoM and there's Ukip pressure if need be.

Yes, linking me to something Boris Johnson says, I'm really going to believe that. A simple Google will list out all of his crap I'm sure. Anyway, what you've just done is linked to two peoples opinions who currently have no real say in the matter, yet not long before tell me to ignore Dan Hannan as he has no real say in the matter

You seem to think I am an avid Boris Johnson MP fan. I'm not. If I had my way, David Davies MP would become Prime Minister as he is much more in line with myself on civil liberties and education than Boris. However, faced between Johnson and May at least Johnson put his neck on the line and helped gain this country's independence and self-government back and for that I really do not mind if he is rewarded for it. May gambled and she lost, tough titty.

You said not long ago,

Boris Johnson or David Davies would be nice

so you must be a fan to a certain extent, especially as you list him before the one you claim to like more.

So basically what you're saying is, you don't mind politicians lying and being self serving so long as it suits you?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Aside from the fact there isn't £350 million to begin with, should Boris become PM he is very much an advocate of the single market which will cost us a significant chunk still.

That's if we have to pay something in the agreement.

And even if we do like Norway, it is still a hell of a lot less than we pay now.

Perhaps he's not in the HoC, but he was still very much on the leave side and I believe on the actual campaign. When someone part of a campaign goes back on something they said, it doesn't exactly inspire much hope. Boris is also full of shit so I wouldn't believe a word he said.

I'm not getting ahead of myself when people in the Leave campaign start retracting their statements almost immediately.

But you wanted the money to go to the EU so why does it bother you? The only people it should be bothering are people who voted Leave, and not once have I seen any Leavers complain about this given we do not yet even know what deal we'll end up with. The vast majority of Leave voters were voting on sovereignty, democracy and immigration - not the hypothetical budget of the NHS. In any case, whether £350m or £100m goes to the NHS in the end and the rest on the Royal Navy or care of the elderly I again could not care less. The money is going to be spent on our own people, that's key.

You seem to be mistaken about what I'm saying. Whatever your personal reasons are, I'm not fussed. But you're defending people who mislead others who voted leave because of those reasons because it suits you. It's not even really about the EU as a whole, it's about politicians spouting such obvious lies and getting away with it.

I'm not defending them. I said we don't yet know the final deal.

I'm not a Conservative Party member, supporter, activist or an advisor to a Tory MP, so challenging me on whether they'll carry through on promises is pointless. I'll know when you know which is when Article 50 negotiations are completed and the new Ministry starts spending that former EU budget cash.

Yes, linking me to something Boris Johnson says, I'm really going to believe that. A simple Google will list out all of his crap I'm sure. Anyway, what you've just done is linked to two peoples opinions who currently have no real say in the matter, yet not long before tell me to ignore Dan Hannan as he has no real say in the matter

Yes but come on we know Johnson is either going to be Prime Minister or be in the cabinet, more weight than what an MEP says.

You said not long ago,

so you must be a fan to a certain extent, especially as you list him before the one you claim to like more.

I like the fact he put his neck on the line and helped win the referendum, yes. George Galloway also helped but it doesn't mean I am a fan.

I've simply said I would prefer Johnson over May but neither are my top choice. Is that a crime?

So basically what you're saying is, you don't mind politicians lying and being self serving so long as it suits you?

Don't put words into my mouth, I haven't said anything of the sort.

We're 4 days after the vote, wait and see what the deal we come to looks like and what the next Ministry - whether Johnson, Leadsom, May or other - does. I supported the Leave campaign to get back our sovereignty, I am as of yet undecided how I will vote (if) at the next General Election.

[dbgtz]

That's if we have to pay something in the agreement.

And even if we do like Norway, it is still a hell of a lot less than we pay now.

Depends how you look at it. Some say after our returns from rebate and direct EU spending, we pay less but I haven't looked too much into it I have to say. Either way, it's still money taken from the supposed NHS fund.

But you wanted the money to go to the EU so why does it bother you? The only people it should be bothering are people who voted Leave, and not once have I seen any Leavers complain about this given we do not yet even know what deal we'll end up with. The vast majority of Leave voters were voting on sovereignty, democracy and immigration - not the hypothetical budget of the NHS. In any case, whether £350m or £100m goes to the NHS in the end and the rest on the Royal Navy or care of the elderly I again could not care less. The money is going to be spent on our own people, that's key.

You assume I want money to go to the EU, no. I voted remain because I detested the spew from the Leave campaign. The vast majority, perhaps, but still entirely possible without the NHS lie the vote would have been remain.

That is until you fight to privatise it though, since that's your ultimate desire and is another reason why people like Farage and Boris piss me off using the NHS and welfare as reasoning to "reclaim" £350.

I'm not defending them. I said we don't yet know the final deal.

I'm not a Conservative Party member, supporter, activist or an advisor to a Tory MP, so challenging me on whether they'll carry through on promises is pointless. I'll know when you know which is when Article 50 negotiations are completed and the new Ministry starts spending that former EU budget cash.

You are defending them by justifying their lie about £350 million. Even if all the savings from the direct contribution of the EU go to the NHS, it will not be £350 million!! That's the lie!! It was literally my first point in my first reply back!!

Yes but come on we know Johnson is either going to be Prime Minister or be in the cabinet, more weight than what an MEP says.

The key here is going. He currently has absolutely no authority on the matter and even if he did, that doesn't make what he says automatically correct or even truthful. He's bullshitted this entire campaign and it's painful you either don't want to or can't see it.

I like the fact he put his neck on the line and helped win the referendum, yes. George Galloway also helped but it doesn't mean I am a fan.

I've simply said I would prefer Johnson over May but neither are my top choice. Is that a crime?

No but don't say you like him then say I seem confused about how you're a fan of his.

Don't put words into my mouth, I haven't said anything of the sort.

We're 4 days after the vote, wait and see what the deal we come to looks like and what the next Ministry - whether Johnson, Leadsom, May or other - does. I supported the Leave campaign to get back our sovereignty, I am as of yet undecided how I will vote (if) at the next General Election.

Well I deduced from the fact you don't mind him being rewarded after winning the referendum, the side which you support and also was the best chance for him to further his career, all despite the fact it was built on a shit load of lies. What else would you say that was? If this was someone on the Remain side, you'd be going mental and possibly already have done.

[Zak]

Anyone else think they are trying to oust Corbyn before the general election? Labour's argument will be "we'll hold another referendum/not enact article 50" if you vote for us? Corbyn wouldn't win anything, hence why they want him out?

I know very little about politics, so if I'm way off please let me know.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@dbgtz;

I have literally no idea what you want from me here other than to say generally politicians are liars and always will be.

At the end of the day you voted Remain which would have had the money you have such an issue with going to the European Union coffers and being spent on Spanish sewers, French farmers or Estonian motorways rather than things here: whether it's the NHS, Royal Navy or care of the elderly. So you're making a mountain of a molehill out of something neither of us yet know what the politicians who promised certain things will do and something you obviously didn't care about anyway hence you voted Remain. Thanks to the Leave vote, you'll now have the ability to hold them to account properly at election time.

I thought our campaign was pretty good and made the points well about sovereignty, supremacy of our courts, the costs of membership and other things. You disagree and voted the other way, so okay that's fine. I voted Leave not because of a £350m boost to the NHS but for various reasons, as did many.

What more do you want me to say? I know as much as you do about the EEA/EFTA/FTA/Other deal that will come in two years time. Patience for now.

Anyone else think they are trying to oust Corbyn before the general election? Labour's argument will be "we'll hold another referendum/not enact article 50" if you vote for us? Corbyn wouldn't win anything, hence why they want him out?

I know very little about politics, so if I'm way off please let me know.

Not sure really, I don't think Labour would dare ignore the result or else it'd be electoral suicide. What's happening is there's a split between the Labour membership who elected Corbyn and the MPs who are overwhelmingly against him. Brexit has just been the pretext for making a move against his leadership really. I think Labour are in serious trouble with or without Corbyn to be honest, look at the Leave percentages in northern towns and cities.

[lemons]

Ratings agency S&P downgrades UK's credit rating from AAA to AA with a negative outlook after #Brexit vote https://t.co/mLwafBlRJm

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) June 27, 2016

EU will not hold informal talks with UK until it triggers Article 50 to leave, Germany, France and Italy insist https://t.co/X3z8KHULIA

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) June 27, 2016

also this was hilarious

Cameron welcomes the new Member for Tooting - advises her to keep phone on could be in the Shadow Cabinet. Scenes. pic.twitter.com/9s7JlBzBmp

— Ben (@Jamin2g) June 27, 2016