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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryfront View Post
    Are you resorting to scaring me into your views?

    Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
    That's your version of saying you've given up, isn't it? And funny you say that because you all are the ones that try to scare us by saying we're racist, homophobic, sexist bigots. It's a matter of calling us everything you can to intimidate (which are all not true).
    Last edited by Landon; 21-03-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    But I have argued the total opposite. I have always argued that we should shape the parties, or the parties must be eliminated and replaced. I have voted Ukip since I could legally start voting - I did not allow the structure of the two main parties to shape my voting, rather I used my vote in the knowledge that I was both voting for policies I agreed with but also that any success that party enjoyed would turn the screws on the major parties. It was only a matter of time before the Conservative Party either buckled (as it did) and granted a referendum on Europe, or split over the issue.

    Now however, the two major parties have fundamental policy disagreements with one another. And that's good. Granted, this won't be for the taste of everyone but they too have the option of voting for smaller parties to exert pressure on the main parties just as I did with Ukip. The May Conservative Party and Corbyn Labour Party offer two completely different choices, do you not agree?
    You're saying all of this as if UKIP was a significant reason for the change. There is no hard evidence to suggest UKIP had any real influence on there being a referendum.

    The bulk of the electorate rejected these parties. It can hardly be good for democracy that no matter how badly a party performs in the polls after being in office, it remains in office? Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.

    Under FPTP the disliked Prime Minister is ejected the following day with the removal vans turning up. It's a good system.
    The bulk of the electorate rejected the Conservatives. I really don't see how you can argue against this.

    You'll never get a manifesto that you are in complete agreement with. But with two different parties, at least there is a choice whereas prior to this we were faced with two identical 'centre' (which just means centre-left in reality) parties in complete agreement with one another, with many of our laws coming from Brussels anyway. A non-choice.

    The next election will be a choice like we have not had for many years. Under full sovereignty with a real left+right.
    You're right, there is never going to be a manifesto I completely agree with, but that's not really a good reason to artificially limit my choice down to a 2 party system.

    I won't be blackmailed by the SNP or Sinn Fein into making certain decisions for this country.

    Both detest the notion of a strong independent Britain as it in the end cripples their dream of an 'independent' Scotland within Europe or a 32-county Irish republic within Europe. EU membership fuelled these movements and the sooner that cord is severed the better. Ask yourself why these two movements so avidly support EU membership: because it helped in their ultimate goal of dissolving Britain as a nation state.
    I don't really see how the EU is the cause of this? It seems like you're just using it as another baseless claim to support your anti EU agenda, unless you have evidence to prove me wrong. I mean, the issue surrounding NI predates the EU and the SNP want EU membership because they think it's in Scotland's best interest. There's no conspiracy here. If there was, why are we not seeing other European countries having similar problems?

    PR would limit their power in that we'd face months of wrangling and governments collapsing every couple of years.
    Yes, look at all these governments collapsing everywhere. It's utter chaos! Governments don't collapse every couple of years under a coalition, stop exaggerating. There's no precedent for this and none for months of wrangling. It took 5 days in 2010 to form government and lasted the full 5 years with no real issues.

    One way it is more democratic is that you have your own constituency member of Parliament for your own area, accountable to you the electorate. When you vote in FPTP, you vote for the candidate and the local party association nominates that candidate. Under PR you're given a list compiled by the party HQ where the top flunkies are placed at the top and are subsequently elected and who are accountable to large geographical areas, much like MEPs.

    How many people can name their MEPs? How high is turnout for EU elections? It turns people off voting.
    That's false. Under certain PR voting systems, that is the method. There are many methods of PR, or close to PR, that you vote directly e.g. STV.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    You're saying all of this as if UKIP was a significant reason for the change. There is no hard evidence to suggest UKIP had any real influence on there being a referendum.
    I think it is beyond doubt that it was the rise of Ukip that led to a referendum. Farage was the one who linked immigration levels to EU membership and made the issue potent as it was, kept demanding a referendum on the issue from the Lisbon Treaty onwards and coupled with the electoral threat they posed not only in winning the European Elections 2014 but also defections. As ITV's Robert Peston said, there's little doubt without Nigel Farage there would be no referendum.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    The bulk of the electorate rejected the Conservatives. I really don't see how you can argue against this.
    I didn't argue against this? The Conservatives only scored a plurality of votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    You're right, there is never going to be a manifesto I completely agree with, but that's not really a good reason to artificially limit my choice down to a 2 party system.
    Even under PR you often get two parties given the tactical element. Only recently in PR systems has this completely broken down like in the Netherlands where forming a government now provides an outcome which nobody voted for.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I don't really see how the EU is the cause of this? It seems like you're just using it as another baseless claim to support your anti EU agenda, unless you have evidence to prove me wrong. I mean, the issue surrounding NI predates the EU and the SNP want EU membership because they think it's in Scotland's best interest. There's no conspiracy here. If there was, why are we not seeing other European countries having similar problems?
    Happy to prove you wrong. For a long time, as power has gone to Brussels from Westminster parties such as Sinn Fein and the SNP have argued for an 'independent' Scotland within the European Union. They acknowledge that an independent Kingdom of Scotland or 32-county Ireland would be in need of some sort of union given they're unable to practically project power as a medium size nation state or defend themselves, so the EU has served as that replacement for the British state.

    You only need to look at the debate in Spain regarding Catalonia - or walk around Barcelona and you'll see numerous Catalan flags alongside the odd EU flag rather than the Spanish flag. The idea of 'independence within Europe' has been used by these separtists to weaken the Spanish state arguing that there's no need for power to reside in Madrid when it can be directly exercised via Brussels. A similar thing can be seen in the Ukraine which in reality will always be a vassal of either Russia or Germany, hence the struggle and appearance of EU flags in western Ukraine which has subsequently torn Ukraine itself apart.

    As the European Union became more and more centralised, the need for the British Union or Spanish state has been eclipsed. Ultimately there's only room for one union, and thank god we chose to preserve our own last June.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Yes, look at all these governments collapsing everywhere. It's utter chaos! Governments don't collapse every couple of years under a coalition, stop exaggerating. There's no precedent for this and none for months of wrangling. It took 5 days in 2010 to form government and lasted the full 5 years with no real issues.
    The Netherlands has had a few General Elections in the past decade or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    That's false. Under certain PR voting systems, that is the method. There are many methods of PR, or close to PR, that you vote directly e.g. STV.
    Indeed there are various methods, but most use the list systen. In addition, some PR systems even make use of a 'top up' which I believe they use in Greece - it gives the winning party an extra bonus of seats for coming first because of the fact that PR voting often result in an unworkable splintered vote. Why not just stick to a tried and tested system which has given us stable and solid government for centuries?
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 21-03-2017 at 06:41 PM.

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