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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    But what is "low levels"? Do they have to have had good support to begin with? Is the SNP, who got fewer votes than the Lib Dems but more seats a failed party? What you're saying is a farce. What you're saying is we should all align ourselves to suit the structure of our system rather than shaping the system that allows more than 2 choices, and let's not forget how often Labour and Conservatives seem similar, as I believe even you've said before. So you're literally advocating we should just accept these 2 similar parties who offer no real choice should be allowed complete and utter control.
    But I have argued the total opposite. I have always argued that we should shape the parties, or the parties must be eliminated and replaced. I have voted Ukip since I could legally start voting - I did not allow the structure of the two main parties to shape my voting, rather I used my vote in the knowledge that I was both voting for policies I agreed with but also that any success that party enjoyed would turn the screws on the major parties. It was only a matter of time before the Conservative Party either buckled (as it did) and granted a referendum on Europe, or split over the issue.

    Now however, the two major parties have fundamental policy disagreements with one another. And that's good. Granted, this won't be for the taste of everyone but they too have the option of voting for smaller parties to exert pressure on the main parties just as I did with Ukip. The May Conservative Party and Corbyn Labour Party offer two completely different choices, do you not agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    You mention outright rejected, but if they have seats then they haven't been outright rejected. In fact, they have more of a mandate to be in power in that PR system than our current government who doesn't even form a majority of the votes does! I don't get how blind you have to be to not see that.
    The bulk of the electorate rejected these parties. It can hardly be good for democracy that no matter how badly a party performs in the polls after being in office, it remains in office? Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.

    Under FPTP the disliked Prime Minister is ejected the following day with the removal vans turning up. It's a good system.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    FPTP becomes a problem when any issue isn't a binary choice, which is almost every major issue. As a slightly made up example, we will take healthcare which could be: a completely private-sector based system; a system similar to country X; the weird mix we have at the moment where most if it is run by the state but aspects privatised or 100% state owned. Right wing and left wing doesn't cut it for the people in the centre either, nor can you even really look at ideology on a 1d plane as you should know.
    You'll never get a manifesto that you are in complete agreement with. But with two different parties, at least there is a choice whereas prior to this we were faced with two identical 'centre' (which just means centre-left in reality) parties in complete agreement with one another, with many of our laws coming from Brussels anyway. A non-choice.

    The next election will be a choice like we have not had for many years. Under full sovereignty with a real left+right.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I would like to say you've literally supported a party and movement which has not only re-triggered this Scottish independence movement, but has put Northern Ireland into question too. There's also the possibility of, should the SNP form a small part of government, then their whole rhetoric about Westminster would lose credibility. Having said that, lots of people believed the rhetoric about the EU so maybe not.
    I won't be blackmailed by the SNP or Sinn Fein into making certain decisions for this country.

    Both detest the notion of a strong independent Britain as it in the end cripples their dream of an 'independent' Scotland within Europe or a 32-county Irish republic within Europe. EU membership fuelled these movements and the sooner that cord is severed the better. Ask yourself why these two movements so avidly support EU membership: because it helped in their ultimate goal of dissolving Britain as a nation state.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Did I ever mention anything about cooperating for the good of the country? I simply said cooperate. Most politicians are sleazy, but PR would quite frankly limit their power.
    PR would limit their power in that we'd face months of wrangling and governments collapsing every couple of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I still want to see how you claim FPTP is democratic though, for someone who so heavily believes in the will of the people
    One way it is more democratic is that you have your own constituency member of Parliament for your own area, accountable to you the electorate. When you vote in FPTP, you vote for the candidate and the local party association nominates that candidate. Under PR you're given a list compiled by the party HQ where the top flunkies are placed at the top and are subsequently elected and who are accountable to large geographical areas, much like MEPs.

    How many people can name their MEPs? How high is turnout for EU elections? It turns people off voting.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 20-03-2017 at 09:50 PM.


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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Vote Labour for unlimited third world mass immigration leaving the British people unable to access education and healthcare.
    Statistics please?

    Mine are based off the fact that the right wing campaign for Brexit was based off fearmongering and lies, which you seem to have succumbed to.

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryfront View Post
    Statistics please?

    Mine are based off the fact that the right wing campaign for Brexit was based off fearmongering and lies, which you seem to have succumbed to.
    Consult the immigration statistics from the 1990s onwards. Under the Labour government immigration reached levels unheard of.

    Or alternatively just think of what you see on British streets these days...


    From Merry Old England to downtown Kabul.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 20-03-2017 at 10:44 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Consult the immigration statistics from the 1990s onwards. Under the Labour government immigration reached levels unheard of.

    Or alternatively just think of what you see on British streets these days...


    From Merry Old England to downtown Kabul.
    Ooh, people existing, what a crime!

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryfront View Post
    Ooh, people existing, what a crime!
    Those invaders above, what do you think they think of your pet causes like gay marriage, transexuals and women's rights?


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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Those invaders above, what do you think they think of your pet causes like gay marriage, transexuals and women's rights?
    Well we're much more likely to have invaded their country for one. They're not "pet causes", they're real issues. And they can believe whatever they bloody want as long as they don't act on it. That's how the law works.

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryfront View Post
    Well we're much more likely to have invaded their country for one.
    And? But just like they invaded our countries. You're not familiar with the Ottoman and Moorish raids on European nations? Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by hungryfront
    They're not "pet causes", they're real issues. And they can believe whatever they bloody want as long as they don't act on it. That's how the law works.
    Isn't it interesting. In numerous discussions here, you've labelled others as racist for simply wanting controlled borders, homophobic for opposing gay marriage and transphobic and bigoted for opposing trans bathrooms. But here when it comes to a demographic who are racist towards other ethnic groups like Indians, who would have homosexuality *illegal* and there simply wouldn't even be a debate over transexuals - you jump to their defence. Incredible!

    Go on a lone gay pride march through a muslim area and let me know how you get on with convincing them not to act on it.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 20-03-2017 at 10:58 PM.


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  8. #18
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    Prejudice: thinking someone, legal.

    Discrimination: acting on something, illegal.

    When a state like Texas tries to act on their homophobic prejudice, it's discrimination and frankly illegal. If they're not affecting you, leave them be.

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  9. #19
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    So Texas is the problem for you because of it wanting to overturn gay marriage, not third worlders coming here who wouldn't entertain the notion of gay marriage but whom a big proportion would actively like to see homosexuality made outright illegal.

    Once upon a time, in 1970s Iran, there were left-wingers just like you. Sided with the Islamists against the nasty capitalist right-wingers. Ended up getting their way and overthrew the right, but shortly after were lined up and shot or forced into headscarves.


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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    So Texas is the problem for you because of it wanting to overturn gay marriage, not third worlders coming here who wouldn't entertain the notion of gay marriage but whom a big proportion would actively like to see homosexuality made outright illegal.

    Once upon a time, in 1970s Iran, there were left-wingers just like you. Sided with the Islamists against the nasty capitalist right-wingers. Ended up getting their way and overthrew the right, but shortly after were lined up and shot or forced into headscarves.
    Are you resorting to scaring me into your views?

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