EU State of the Union address

[scottish]

Fixed, I quadruple posted when forum was offline for updates so it broke.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Implicit consent through treaties approved by parliament... Unfortunately, as far as I have read, the repeal bill has the potential to go far beyond its initial power.

Yes, and The Great Repeal Bill - passed by Parliament - allows ministers to transplant *existing* EU law into British law. At least with The Great Repeal Bill it is our own government and parliament who will be able to amend and change these laws in the future, under the previous system (EU) Parliament had absolutely zero say over EU laws. It is also worth bearing in mind that the royal Henry VIII powers given to ministers for this task will come with a 'sunset' clause - ending when the task is completed during 2019.

The sudden worry about laws bypassing Parliament from diehard Remainers is laughable. Nobody buys it.

Not really sure how this is replying to my point

You're going on about approval. Like all EU integration history, what the EU wants it eventually gets - whether that is by ignoring national referendums or simply abolishing national vetoes as it has *already* done in a number of areas (QMV).

No? I never said "abolish member state militaries". I was saying something which is set up purely to aid the smaller states who perhaps can't do so much on their own wouldn't be a bad thing.
I reserve judgement until I see what it entails.

But that is what you are saying - either you don't realise it or realise it is an extremely unpopular position to hold so won't say it willingly just like Remain-supporting politicians. An EU army de facto means the end of national armed forces, because why would we have two armies? There's no Scottish army anymore than there is English army since the Acts of Union. For an EU army to work also, there would then have to be political union at the same time as well - a United States of Europe.

And as for aiding smaller countries, erm that's known as NATO? It's not an army, it is a loose alliance.

Wouldn't be an awful thing for us too since a UK defence supplier probably would have been involved.

So hand over control of Her Majesty's Armed Forces to the European Commission in return for defence contracts for BAE shareholders?

Do you value *anything* when it comes to our country other than money?

[dbgtz]

Yes, and The Great Repeal Bill - passed by Parliament - allows ministers to transplant *existing* EU law into British law. At least with The Great Repeal Bill it is our own government and parliament who will be able to amend and change these laws in the future, under the previous system (EU) Parliament had absolutely zero say over EU laws. It is also worth bearing in mind that the royal Henry VIII powers given to ministers for this task will come with a 'sunset' clause - ending when the task is completed during 2019.

The sudden worry about laws bypassing Parliament from diehard Remainers is laughable. Nobody buys it.

"Appropriately time limited" is their choice of words in the white paper. Vague enough they could just keep it going indefinitely. I don't care about laws bypassing parliament, I care about laws modified without proper scrutiny for the gain of one party who will happily **** out £1 billion for what isn't even a coalition so they can retain power after recklessly calling an election which was only called with the intention of grabbing more power. Are you so blind to see how scummy a result there could be if a bill like this is passed without proper scrutiny?

You're going on about approval. Like all EU integration history, what the EU wants it eventually gets - whether that is by ignoring national referendums or simply abolishing national vetoes as it has *already* done in a number of areas (QMV).

Referendums like which? Ireland where the initial no vote ended up in a treaty change to address Irish concerns? Hardly ignored.
Even so, on approval a QMV is still better than the horse shit tiny arse majority that was this referendum

Just to be clear on my general position, I'm not really annoyed at leaving but just how everything was conducted just made it an abomination as far as I'm concerned, and the fact I don't believe peoples issues even lying in the EU but more in our own government.

But that is what you are saying - either you don't realise it or realise it is an extremely unpopular position to hold so won't say it willingly just like Remain-supporting politicians. An EU army de facto means the end of national armed forces, because why would we have two armies? There's no Scottish army anymore than there is English army since the Acts of Union. For an EU army to work also, there would then have to be political union at the same time as well - a United States of Europe.

And as for aiding smaller countries, erm that's known as NATO? It's not an army, it is a loose alliance.

If that is the case then UN peacekeepers have basically replaced our military.......................... oh
I see the move as a push away from US reliance, which I'm sure you'll somehow spin that to be negative.

So hand over control of Her Majesty's Armed Forces to the European Commission in return for defence contracts for BAE shareholders?

Do you value *anything* when it comes to our country other than money?

Never did I even suggest that. I mentioned defence contracts under the assumption of a small force designed primarily for the smaller states, since yes having investment, meaning jobs, would be a positive thing. Weird thing for you to criticise really since you seem to be a staunch capitalist. You talk about valuing the country but you couldn't really give a shit about anyone inside of it all in the name of a "small state". You even said/implied you'd have voted for Brexit even if it sent the country into depression. Some people are literally on the breadline yet you'd happily shit on them more and for what exactly? Some intangible identity you are scared of losing? Great, some people are scared of losing tangible things like their home or even things like their health (it's almost as if you need money to live). So perhaps don't talk to me about my values and question your own.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"Appropriately time limited" is their choice of words in the white paper. Vague enough they could just keep it going indefinitely. I don't care about laws bypassing parliament, I care about laws modified without proper scrutiny for the gain of one party who will happily **** out £1 billion for what isn't even a coalition so they can retain power after recklessly calling an election which was only called with the intention of grabbing more power. Are you so blind to see how scummy a result there could be if a bill like this is passed without proper scrutiny?

Don't you understand how incoherent you sound? You're worried about the *potential* of laws being modified (reality is that they are only transplanting them) by our elected government but you're supportive of 27 foreign governments and an unelected Commission telling our elected government what to do. Why not just admit you're a federalist?

Referendums like which? Ireland where the initial no vote ended up in a treaty change to address Irish concerns? Hardly ignored.

I'm sure it was... even though EU leaders all made clear nothing had changed vis a vis the constitution/Lisbon.

Even so, on approval a QMV is still better than the horse shit tiny arse majority that was this referendum

27 foreign governments overruling our own is better than a 72% turnout referendum? You're so bitter.

Just to be clear on my general position, I'm not really annoyed at leaving but just how everything was conducted just made it an abomination as far as I'm concerned, and the fact I don't believe peoples issues even lying in the EU but more in our own government.

Funny enough we live in a democracy and the majority happened to disagree with you, that is how it goes. 52% of us on a 72% turnout looked at the European Union and decided we didn't like it or what it has done.

Like the EU itself and many diehard remainers, even though you lost it doesn't dawn on you to think as to why you lost. Instead, you push for even more Europe as Juncker did in his speech. Like with the Irish, French and Dutch why should what the people want stop your grand project? You *know better* don't you? Full steam ahead over the cliff.

If that is the case then UN peacekeepers have basically replaced our military.......................... oh
I see the move as a push away from US reliance, which I'm sure you'll somehow spin that to be negative.

The UN is not an army and UN peacekeepers are token charity workers.

As for US reliance, ah yes I hear that one a lot. It's an interesting argument - that in order to not be reliant on one country for defence (sovereignty) we ought to instead become reliant on 27 countries via a political union for defence many of whom have totally different defence objectives compared to Britain and America. Yes, anything to get away from that American influence - even if it means landlocked Czech Republic having a say over our naval policy. Clever!

Never did I even suggest that. I mentioned defence contracts under the assumption of a small force designed primarily for the smaller states, since yes having investment, meaning jobs, would be a positive thing. Weird thing for you to criticise really since you seem to be a staunch capitalist. You talk about valuing the country but you couldn't really give a shit about anyone inside of it all in the name of a "small state". You even said/implied you'd have voted for Brexit even if it sent the country into depression. Some people are literally on the breadline yet you'd happily shit on them more and for what exactly? Some intangible identity you are scared of losing? Great, some people are scared of losing tangible things like their home or even things like their health (it's almost as if you need money to live). So perhaps don't talk to me about my values and question your own.

Firstly, why would Britain want to pay for and provide the defence for Estonia, Latvia and Romania?

My values are solid on this. Sovereignty and democracy - the ability of the people in this country to make and decide their own laws - have taken centuries to achieve; from the Magna Carta curtailing the powers of the King, Habeas corpus, to the Reformation, fighting off the Spanish Armada, to the English Civil War, to Common Law, the Battle of Waterloo, to the Suffragettes and the Great Reform Acts extending the voting franchise - British independence has been paid for a thousand times over in blood and i'll be damned if we hand it over.

It was all worth every drop of blood and it'll be worth every penny (if need be).

[Firehorse]

No point in arguing with people who defend something blindly despite the facts.

Fact: EU laws we do not like cannot be removed or changed through democratic process. The EU is structured in order for change to only be possible from the top down. MEPs can only vote on what the commission allows them to vote on, no person elected by the UK general population has a say in what can be voted on. There is 1 UK member, that's 1 per 65.6 million UK citizens, in the European Commission, and they are not voted into position by the general public. EU commission members are bound by oath to represent the interest of the EU and not their member state.

Fact: EU laws that we want to be created cannot be commissioned through democratic process. The EU is structured in order for change to only be possible from the top down. MEPs can only vote on what the commission allows them to vote on, no person elected by the UK general population has a say in what can be voted on. There is 1 UK member, that's 1 per 65.6 million UK citizens, in the European Commission, and they are not voted into position by the general public. EU commission members are bound by oath to represent the interest of the EU and not their member state.

Fact: EU laws are being transposed into British law. ALL primary-legislative EU laws which applied to us before Brexit remain in place after Brexit day in the form of UK legislation.

Fact: UK laws we do not like can be removed or changed through democratic process. The UK is structured in order for change to be possible from the bottom up. Any MP can propose a Bill which then gets debated in Parliament, and once approved by the house of Parliament is put through the legislative process to become law. There are 650 MPs, 1 per 92,000 UK citizens, all of which have been voted into power by the general public.

Fact: UK laws that we want to be created can be commissioned through democratic process. The UK is structured in order for change to be possible from the bottom up. Any MP can propose a Bill which then gets debated in Parliament, and once approved by the house of Parliament is put through the legislative process to become law. There are 650 MPs, 1 per 92,000 UK citizens, all of which have been voted into power by the general public.

Any person that claims this transposal of law to our jurisdiction is in any way negative is indirectly saying that they believe the appointed EU commissioners are right to have a say but others are not, and no number of ways they try to spin it will change this.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Lord Pearson explains the hypocrisy pretty well.