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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    what planet are you living on
    A post-2016 one.

    Have you not been watching the President? He's described the EU as America's number one enemy/foe, has praised President Putin, has attacked NATO and threatened American withdrawal. The old order is literally crumbling in front of us. And he's only 2 years in.

    And on my historical point with Britain-Germany-Russia, don't confuse correlated interests with friendliness/an alliance.



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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    A post-2016 one.

    Have you not been watching the President? He's described the EU as America's number one enemy/foe, has praised President Putin, has attacked NATO and threatened American withdrawal. The old order is literally crumbling in front of us. And he's only 2 years in.
    he also has dementia apparently as seen https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/
    i mean he literally gets recorded criticising theresa may and then later that day (or the next) says its fake news lmfao

    praised putin lmfao he puts more trust in him than the fbi i dont think him praising putin can be considered to be anything other than a bit dodgy

    And on my historical point with Britain-Germany-Russia, don't confuse correlated interests with friendliness/an alliance.
    we were literally sided with the us against russia/soviet union for like 50 years in the cold war? literally opposite interests there and more modern than anything you could provide (inb4 german eu domination or some ****)

    you act like the german government is that same as that from 1939

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    he also has dementia apparently as seen https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/
    i mean he literally gets recorded criticising theresa may and then later that day (or the next) says its fake news lmfao

    praised putin lmfao he puts more trust in him than the fbi i dont think him praising putin can be considered to be anything other than a bit dodgy
    What I don't understand is many of you (rightly) attacked US foreign policy as warmongering yet here we have a US President making headway with a great power in the world and he's then attacked by the same people as being too peaceful.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    we were literally sided with the us against russia/soviet union for like 50 years in the cold war? literally opposite interests there and more modern than anything you could provide (inb4 german eu domination or some ****)
    Yes that is true, but that was more an ideological war between America and the Soviet Union than a geopolitical battle over Europe between a weak Germany under the US umbrella and Russia. In some respects, you could say the Cold War sort of suspended the normality of European geopolitics - but with the reunification of Germany (which France and Britain even in 1991 had misgivings about) and Germany being very much the leading power of an expansionist EU, the old battle for hegemony on the European landmass has been revived. I mean, even today in Parliament something from the 1830s was being debated in regards to the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    you act like the german government is that same as that from 1939
    Not at all, in fact I mentioned the Kingdom of Prussia earlier - Germanic hegemony has plagued the continent for over two hundred years. The leaders, regimes and ideologies may change but the fact of the matter is that Germany by geography and size is and will continue to be an issue - and the same for Russia. Both are powers locked, like Saudi and Persia, forever against one another's interests.

    It just so happens that British interests in avoiding a Europe dominated by Germany align with those of Russia - that was the case with Prussia, the German Empire, Nazi Germany and post-war Germany. You have to look at the long view with these things.



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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    What I don't understand is many of you (rightly) attacked US foreign policy as warmongering yet here we have a US President making headway with a great power in the world and he's then attacked by the same people as being too peaceful.
    why aren't you commenting on the fact he's contradicting himself and lying time and time again

    the fact is he's being peaceful with someone who, at the very least, is being accused of colluding with to get presidency and someone who is the leader of the country accused of causing the death of uk citizens and others on uk soil which also constantly "invade" (can't think of the proper wording, illegally enter?) uk territory time and time again

    Yes that is true, but that was more an ideological war between America and the Soviet Union than a geopolitical battle over Europe between a weak Germany under the US umbrella and Russia. In some respects, you could say the Cold War sort of suspended the normality of European geopolitics - but with the reunification of Germany (which France and Britain even in 1991 had misgivings about) and Germany being very much the leading power of an expansionist EU, the old battle for hegemony on the European landmass has been revived. I mean, even today in Parliament something from the 1830s was being debated in regards to the EU.
    there were a bunch of proxy wars in the middle east and still are
    why are you so obsessed with germany being expansionist when they're hardly the only country in europe to ever do so
    hell russia is the only country to actually expand with the annexation of crimea

    Not at all, in fact I mentioned the Kingdom of Prussia earlier - Germanic hegemony has plagued the continent for over two hundred years. The leaders, regimes and ideologies may change but the fact of the matter is that Germany by geography and size is and will continue to be an issue - and the same for Russia. Both are powers locked, like Saudi and Persia, forever against one another's interests.

    It just so happens that British interests in avoiding a Europe dominated by Germany align with those of Russia - that was the case with Prussia, the German Empire, Nazi Germany and post-war Germany. You have to look at the long view with these things.
    except the eu and germany is nothing like any of those so why you are taking this view now is really quite concerning

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    why aren't you commenting on the fact he's contradicting himself and lying time and time again

    the fact is he's being peaceful with someone who, at the very least, is being accused of colluding with to get presidency and someone who is the leader of the country accused of causing the death of uk citizens and others on uk soil which also constantly "invade" (can't think of the proper wording, illegally enter?) uk territory time and time again
    The crossings by Russia into British airspace and waters is of course serious, but is blown up to be more than it is by the media to build on the anti-Kremlin narrative. For example, our so called Spanish (EU) allies often invade the waters of Gibraltar and have to be chased by the Royal Navy yet they are supposedly our friends and Russia the enemy...?

    More to the point, Russia's shows of strength behind all the propaganda of both sides have actually been quite pathetic. The sight of that black smoke-producing Soviet-era battle cruiser, breaking down in the Atlantic off our waters was a sorry sight to behold and should bust the myth here that some have been trying to build that Russia is somehow some scary superpower bent on domination of all of western Europe. The reality is that Russia is a scared and anxious great power that is lost in its own contrasting history of the last century and fears that what happened to the Soviet Union could happen to Russia itself. That's why Putin is so popular there - for Russians, it is all about stability.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    there were a bunch of proxy wars in the middle east and still are
    why are you so obsessed with germany being expansionist when they're hardly the only country in europe to ever do so
    hell russia is the only country to actually expand with the annexation of crimea
    The reason why is because Germany was late to the game of forming itself, and consequently has caused a lot of trouble in expanding because it has infringed on other already-established powers. France in particular has felt this, and has tried numerous ways to contain Germany or to co-opt it - the EU being the latest settlement the French have arrived at in regards to Germany.

    A lot of people forget that Germany didn't exist until the 1870s - and unlike Austria-Hungary/France/Britain/Russia it had no Empire to speak of. Now that Germany *is* established, and given its geopolitical weight and power, it is like a huge boulder on the continent that will always be a major factor in geopolitics so long as it exists, in much the same way Russia is - hence the tension between the two. I have always felt that the biggest regrettable casualty of WWI was the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which acted as buffer between Germany and Russia, but one powerful enough to stand alone as a great power itself - since 1919 that has been missing from central and eastern Europe.

    As for the current expansions, quite wrong. Germany since reunification, through the EU and NATO, has expanded right through central and eastern Europe, into the Balkans and right up to the borders of Russia. Russia feels, quite rightly, threatened by this expansion into what it has regarded for the last 500 years as its sphere of influence. After the Cold War, the Russians were promised this would not happen yet it has.

    Crimea is peanuts to what the Russians feel they have really lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    except the eu and germany is nothing like any of those so why you are taking this view now is really quite concerning
    But it is. Again, like I said earlier you have to look past the froth on the top and look at the underlying mechanics that often last for centuries in geopolitics. Y'know, it is like Britain's problems with Europe - these stretch back as far as Tudor times and more. Or the position of China in Asia - an issue for Asian nations that is as old as the mountains. Or Persia in regards to the Arab world. Sure, dynasties have come and gone and so have ideologies but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of global and regional politics.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 17-07-2018 at 11:39 PM.



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