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Thread: Brexit Deal

  1. #21
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    We haven't forced them to do anything either, the entire point is that both sides are TRYING to for shit reasons with shit outcomes. I really can't understand how you're seeing one side asking the other to secede territory as horrific and the other as being totally reasonable and wonderful and oh my what a lovely bunch of chaps
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    Didn't you just argue that being out of the EU means that wages will go up for UK farmers, fruit pickers and the such (jobs typically fulfilled by migrants) but now you're basically saying we're going to be suggested by cheap food from elsewhere which would actually put these people out of a job? Which is it you're hoping for exactly? To me it sounds like you're hoping a bunch of our farms get bankrupted, which to me sounds like a terrible idea to be even more reliant on food imports than we already are.

    I also didn't know the CAP and food regulations were specifically designed to protect French farmers, got evidence for that? What regulations to you presume to be part of this conspiracy exactly? The ones that banned a potential carcogenic to be poured over apples until proven safe? The ones where you have to label allergens? Or the ones where you can't abuse the animals involved? Do enlighten me as to what exactly you are hoping our government disposes of.
    How many times do I have to state this principle? The entire point of Brexit isn't what just you or I think should happen policy-wise, it is for all of us to decide in our sovereign Parliament. So yes, if the country decides to liberalise agricultural trade policy for cheaper food but that this also results in uncompetitive British farms going out of business, then that is a decision for this country to make alone. It could also go the opposite way, the point is that *we* decide the policy and not French farming unions.

    The reality as to what would happen in regards to farming, one could see more exotic non-British products which are grown on the continent such as grapes, olives, oranges, lemons, limes, dates and so on being imported from Africa, South America and Asia instead of Europe because of the price difference. This wouldn't hurt British farmers, would benefit Commonwealth countries but *would* hurt the protectionist European market. So you can see why they fear a competitive, free and unchained Britain - as they openly say;

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    eh read my last sentence in what you just replied to
    if I were Irish though I could say that the British split Ireland to begin with
    The British never split Ireland, the Irish split Ireland. Ireland as a concept, much like India, did not exist prior to English and later British rule. It was southern Ireland which decided to leave the realm, and it was Northern Ireland who decided to remain in the Union.

    It sounds to me like you are actually questioning the legitimacy of your very own country.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I never voted Conservative?
    I asked, what reforms had Britain achieved/could achieve by staying in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    They're not forcing anything. Suggest a workable solution and they would be happy to do it
    Yes because they are so reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    When did I vote David Davies exactly? I could turn this back into another "our system is shit" but that'll just go in circles.
    Instead you seem to prefer a system where most people, including those marching on the streets of London yesterday, couldn't name more than one official who works for it. That's a really great, accountable and democratic system. Can you name the Commission? Because I read this stuff everyday and have done for over a decade and I can't name one Commissioner apart from the Commission President.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Except they haven't forced us to do anything so your point falls flat. I really can't understand how you see our shared border as solely their problem.
    They haven't forced us to do anything?

    They've literally just said to us the choice is between splitting Northern Ireland off from the rest of our country, or accepting continued EU rule with the backstop. Yet just earlier you were questioning how some could dare tell the Irish Republic what to do.



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    More tonight on our dithering PM. Not looking good for her.


    While it emerges that the EU is demanding it has control over Britain's tax regime after Brexit. It's astounding.

    Are you going to defend this? @dbgtz;




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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJesus View Post
    We haven't forced them to do anything either, the entire point is that both sides are TRYING to for shit reasons with shit outcomes. I really can't understand how you're seeing one side asking the other to secede territory as horrific and the other as being totally reasonable and wonderful and oh my what a lovely bunch of chaps
    So I haven't actually said I support the splitting of NI from rUK so good one there, and asking ROI to join in leaving is laughable because of the high EU support.

    A big potential problem here for uk nationalists is that the trends in NI are shifting to unified Ireland, and having that hard border could be some deciding factor for a lot of people just to avoid the violence if nothing else. Alternatively, it could swing the completely other way but who knows. Hopefully there is no hard border regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    How many times do I have to state this principle? The entire point of Brexit isn't what just you or I think should happen policy-wise, it is for all of us to decide in our sovereign Parliament. So yes, if the country decides to liberalise agricultural trade policy for cheaper food but that this also results in uncompetitive British farms going out of business, then that is a decision for this country to make alone. It could also go the opposite way, the point is that *we* decide the policy and not French farming unions.

    The reality as to what would happen in regards to farming, one could see more exotic non-British products which are grown on the continent such as grapes, olives, oranges, lemons, limes, dates and so on being imported from Africa, South America and Asia instead of Europe because of the price difference. This wouldn't hurt British farmers, would benefit Commonwealth countries but *would* hurt the protectionist European market. So you can see why they fear a competitive, free and unchained Britain - as they openly say;

    Then why are you boasting about pay going up and such in one thread when post brexit could see that completely change that? You're making completely contradictory points in an effort to be right. I get you like the idea of it being all decided in Westminster, but that's not related to what I said.

    Speaking of contradictory points, you constantly say something like "we're the 5th/6th largest economy (generally over France) why wouldn't xyz" but somehow we're being bent over the barrel by French farmers? How does this change post-brexit exactly? Surely as the second biggest in the EU we should have more clout in that than the world general world? The point you're trying to make here really isn't well thought out.

    Again on your imports blah blah actually point me to some figures and I might believe this, but the thing right now is we do import such items from outside the EU anyway. Did you not see this? https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/25/brexi...-well-7976838/

    I get your whole point is the "shifting" of power to Westminster but you're backing your points on poor assumptions.

    The British never split Ireland, the Irish split Ireland. Ireland as a concept, much like India, did not exist prior to English and later British rule. It was southern Ireland which decided to leave the realm, and it was Northern Ireland who decided to remain in the Union.

    It sounds to me like you are actually questioning the legitimacy of your very own country.
    "If I were Irish"
    almost as if there's more than one way to look at things

    I asked, what reforms had Britain achieved/could achieve by staying in the EU?
    Right, but I never voted Conservative. I never believed DC would try to do anything to be quite honest. If TM remains PM for the next few years, it goes awfully and I asked "why did it go so bad?" you would simply say that you had no faith in TM to deliver due to her "mixed opinion" shall we call it. You never asked me what it could achieve and it's too late for me to go into it right now. I'll look at that an UK influence tomorrow or Tuesday and get back to you on that.

    Yes because they are so reasonable.
    Well, yes... You just need to suggest something which can actually work. I don't understand why you think the EU are really that insistent on keeping NI in I'm sure they're a net beneficiary, it is purely to avoid troubles and keep to the GFA.

    Instead you seem to prefer a system where most people, including those marching on the streets of London yesterday, couldn't name more than one official who works for it. That's a really great, accountable and democratic system. Can you name the Commission? Because I read this stuff everyday and have done for over a decade and I can't name one Commissioner apart from the Commission President.
    If it wasn't for media nobody would know who Theresa May was... But sure as hell everyone knows the Kardashians, One Direction, Ed Sheeran blah blah.
    So long as you can easily find out, why does it matter for me to remember their name? How is this a judge of anything other than how plastered they are over the media? I don't know the environment secretary but a quick look means I can see it's Gove which I did kind of know but I thought he resigned with the rest of them. I can also do the same for the EU commission.

    They haven't forced us to do anything?

    They've literally just said to us the choice is between splitting Northern Ireland off from the rest of our country, or accepting continued EU rule with the backstop. Yet just earlier you were questioning how some could dare tell the Irish Republic what to do.
    I just found it laughable how out of touch it was for some to say ROI should leave given EU support there is at 92%.
    When have they said those are the only choices? They're pretty open to suggestions from what I've read but nobody on leave can actually provide something which works (on paper) for both sides. I could understand the frustration if it was completely workable and they're just being stubborn, but as much as you'd love to believe that, they're not.

    I'll have to reply to your second post tomorrow as I only just noticed it + it's paywalled and I want to go to bed

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    So I haven't actually said I support the splitting of NI from rUK so good one there, and asking ROI to join in leaving is laughable because of the high EU support.
    Cool story, and I never said that Ireland should leave the EU but you seem to think I'm a supporter of that idea for some reason. Let's try asking AGAIN: how is it that asking Ireland to leave the EU is terrible but asking NI to leave the UK somehow isn't? That's all I'm getting at here, your inconsistency
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    The bloc publically committing themselves to voting down any deal with the NI backstop in has now reached 41 Tory MPs.

    And IDS and Owen Paterson of the ERG group have just met Barnier in Brussels with Canada+++ proposals.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    So I haven't actually said I support the splitting of NI from rUK so good one there, and asking ROI to join in leaving is laughable because of the high EU support.
    So you agree with myself, the Tory Party and the DUP that any splitting Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom by remaining in the Customs Union/Single Market via a backstop is completely unacceptable? If so, we are in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    A big potential problem here for uk nationalists is that the trends in NI are shifting to unified Ireland, and having that hard border could be some deciding factor for a lot of people just to avoid the violence if nothing else. Alternatively, it could swing the completely other way but who knows. Hopefully there is no hard border regardless.
    It was said prior to the referendum that a Leave vote would result in a surge in Scottish independence, instead we've had the opposite effect. I have always said that EU membership weakens larger countries such as Britain, Spain and Italy because it encourages smaller breakaway states in that instead of looking to London/Madrid/Rome they can look to Brussels. Once Britain is out of the EU, the debate will drastically change: it will be Scottish Nationalists and Irish Republicans who will have to argue for leaving the UK Single Market, UK Customs Union, joining Schengen and adopting the Euro currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Then why are you boasting about pay going up and such in one thread when post brexit could see that completely change that? You're making completely contradictory points in an effort to be right. I get you like the idea of it being all decided in Westminster, but that's not related to what I said.
    Post-Brexit it could go either way depending on what we decide. We could adopt policies totally the opposite to what I want, and I could see it all go to pot. But I didn't vote Brexit to get solely what I want - I voted it so the country can get what it wants.

    For example, EU rules in regards to the Single Market curb a lot of what a Corbyn-style government would want to do in terms of business freedom. That's something I am in agreement with the EU on. But how wrong would that be of me, to use a foreign power to overrule my fellow Britons who have elected a (crazy) Marxist government. It's all about legitimacy in my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Speaking of contradictory points, you constantly say something like "we're the 5th/6th largest economy (generally over France) why wouldn't xyz" but somehow we're being bent over the barrel by French farmers? How does this change post-brexit exactly? Surely as the second biggest in the EU we should have more clout in that than the world general world? The point you're trying to make here really isn't well thought out.
    We're bent over the barrel by French farmers because we're locked into a system where we have a small % of votes, QMV, other nations generally back France and Germany as the drivers of the project, and where the ECJ then enforces it whether we like it or not. That's not to say our governments' haven't been pathetically weak as well.

    Outside of that system, we sign FTAs on our own. It'll be entirely our choice whether to sign these FTAs. If America, Japan or China demand unacceptable terms, then we simply don't sign an agreement with them. It really is that simple. Flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Again on your imports blah blah actually point me to some figures and I might believe this, but the thing right now is we do import such items from outside the EU anyway. Did you not see this? https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/25/brexi...-well-7976838/
    I haven't got figures but you can apply the logic to any number of things. I've read before how as a result of EU procurement in defence, we've paid a fortune for less than reliable military equipment when the American stuff was half the price and far superior. It's this mixing of European federalist politics that has poisoned our economic thinking. The EU is political, not economic; always remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I get your whole point is the "shifting" of power to Westminster but you're backing your points on poor assumptions.
    I don't make any assumptions, like I said I have ideas and opinions as to how Britain should run itself once independent but that isn't my decision alone to take. We could make a huge mess of it, correct. But I would rather make a mess of it ourselves than be run from abroad. Besides, generally I think good governance comes from independent, medium-sized nation states.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Right, but I never voted Conservative. I never believed DC would try to do anything to be quite honest. If TM remains PM for the next few years, it goes awfully and I asked "why did it go so bad?" you would simply say that you had no faith in TM to deliver due to her "mixed opinion" shall we call it. You never asked me what it could achieve and it's too late for me to go into it right now. I'll look at that an UK influence tomorrow or Tuesday and get back to you on that.
    I asked two remainer friends who were arguing for reform, and asked what reforms would you propose that would stand a chance of being accepted and adopted by the European Union. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    Well, yes... You just need to suggest something which can actually work. I don't understand why you think the EU are really that insistent on keeping NI in I'm sure they're a net beneficiary, it is purely to avoid troubles and keep to the GFA.
    They're using Ulster as a crowbar to keep us tied to the continental system. Politics 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    If it wasn't for media nobody would know who Theresa May was... But sure as hell everyone knows the Kardashians, One Direction, Ed Sheeran blah blah.
    So long as you can easily find out, why does it matter for me to remember their name? How is this a judge of anything other than how plastered they are over the media? I don't know the environment secretary but a quick look means I can see it's Gove which I did kind of know but I thought he resigned with the rest of them. I can also do the same for the EU commission.
    It matters because in any democratic system it is important that people generally understand the concept so the democratic process is transparent. This is true in the Westminster system: you have the Crown, and HM Government appointed from Parliament. The European Union system on the other hand was always intended to be complex, as it helped hide what was being created. I have studied this for years and I still cannot fully grasp it. It's *designed* to be that way as it avoids accountability.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    I just found it laughable how out of touch it was for some to say ROI should leave given EU support there is at 92%.
    When have they said those are the only choices? They're pretty open to suggestions from what I've read but nobody on leave can actually provide something which works (on paper) for both sides. I could understand the frustration if it was completely workable and they're just being stubborn, but as much as you'd love to believe that, they're not.

    I'll have to reply to your second post tomorrow as I only just noticed it + it's paywalled and I want to go to bed
    Indeed, which is why I now believe the solution is No Deal.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 22-10-2018 at 11:44 AM.



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    I don't understand the pessimism? I know very little about this stuff but things aren't getting better?.. surely it's time to change direction?

    I've spoken with a lot of the older generation, ones that fought for what we have. I saw no fear, they genuinely think that leaving the EU will be best for this country. You can't tell me my Granddad (90) doesn't have my interests at heart? Or Norman (97), a family friend, doesn't have his grandchildren and great-grandchildren's interests at heart?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJesus View Post
    Cool story, and I never said that Ireland should leave the EU but you seem to think I'm a supporter of that idea for some reason. Let's try asking AGAIN: how is it that asking Ireland to leave the EU is terrible but asking NI to leave the UK somehow isn't? That's all I'm getting at here, your inconsistency
    first of all, NI wouldn't be leaving the UK
    second of all, I never said I supported it so what point are you trying to make exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    So you agree with myself, the Tory Party and the DUP that any splitting Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom by remaining in the Customs Union/Single Market via a backstop is completely unacceptable? If so, we are in agreement.
    If it was temporary as a means to an end? Sure, but obviously not on the cards.
    I feel like the most appropriate thing would be another referendum specifically for NI, given that NI did technically vote to to remain. Obviously this would never happen for the intevitable backlash elsewhere.

    It was said prior to the referendum that a Leave vote would result in a surge in Scottish independence, instead we've had the opposite effect. I have always said that EU membership weakens larger countries such as Britain, Spain and Italy because it encourages smaller breakaway states in that instead of looking to London/Madrid/Rome they can look to Brussels. Once Britain is out of the EU, the debate will drastically change: it will be Scottish Nationalists and Irish Republicans who will have to argue for leaving the UK Single Market, UK Customs Union, joining Schengen and adopting the Euro currency.
    I said outright it was pure speculation and the opposite could happen, however looking at the figures the referendum had little impact. It was pretty consistently no before and after the referendum bar a brief surge immediately after in favour of yes, which might actually be more down to DC resigning. It will be something to assess later down the line.

    Post-Brexit it could go either way depending on what we decide. We could adopt policies totally the opposite to what I want, and I could see it all go to pot. But I didn't vote Brexit to get solely what I want - I voted it so the country can get what it wants.

    For example, EU rules in regards to the Single Market curb a lot of what a Corbyn-style government would want to do in terms of business freedom. That's something I am in agreement with the EU on. But how wrong would that be of me, to use a foreign power to overrule my fellow Britons who have elected a (crazy) Marxist government. It's all about legitimacy in my eyes.
    Lots of coulds and shoulds basically, no actual substance. Fundamentally, you have just made completely contradictory points to show Brexit is a good thing to the individual who looks at this economically.

    We're bent over the barrel by French farmers because we're locked into a system where we have a small % of votes, QMV, other nations generally back France and Germany as the drivers of the project, and where the ECJ then enforces it whether we like it or not. That's not to say our governments' haven't been pathetically weak as well.

    Outside of that system, we sign FTAs on our own. It'll be entirely our choice whether to sign these FTAs. If America, Japan or China demand unacceptable terms, then we simply don't sign an agreement with them. It really is that simple. Flexibility.
    Are you talking about the EU Parliament here? Curious to see what numbers you're actually looking at. I'm looking at some LSE study for the Council which does put us at the end, but actually Germany isn't far off us so you must be looking at something else.
    Also we have the joint 3rd most seats with Italy. France has 1 more than us, presumably because of how France overseas territories are still technically France. Germany is on 99 going down to 96. In the context of other member states, that's pretty high and if you can argue that winning an election with a plurality by a few percent, or that winning a referendum by <4% is a significant majority, then I think it's fair to say the 9.7% we have is pretty darn big.

    I haven't got figures but you can apply the logic to any number of things. I've read before how as a result of EU procurement in defence, we've paid a fortune for less than reliable military equipment when the American stuff was half the price and far superior. It's this mixing of European federalist politics that has poisoned our economic thinking. The EU is political, not economic; always remember that.
    When have we done this? The only example I can think of is Maggie Thatcher buying US helicopters instead of from BAE (a UK company). We have tonnes of US equipment and we, along with other European countries, purchased (and possibly contributed to?) the notably infamous F-35 from them (which, by the way, has been surrounded by all sorts of controversy regarding poor design/management). Literally just google it and see how much equipment we get from the US.

    I don't make any assumptions, like I said I have ideas and opinions as to how Britain should run itself once independent but that isn't my decision alone to take. We could make a huge mess of it, correct. But I would rather make a mess of it ourselves than be run from abroad. Besides, generally I think good governance comes from independent, medium-sized nation states.
    Yes, you did make a poor assumption. You assume in some relevant case scenario fruit will be cheaper, yet the EU already has a lot of FTA with countries meaning cheap food from non-EU countries.

    Also does this mean you're hoping for the splitting of the USA, China and other non-medium states? Or would that then make us large states so we just endlessly break up?

    I asked two remainer friends who were arguing for reform, and asked what reforms would you propose that would stand a chance of being accepted and adopted by the European Union. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
    A directly elected President and a change from the voting system they have in place, which I'm not a huge fan of personally.

    They're using Ulster as a crowbar to keep us tied to the continental system. Politics 101.
    Or maybe they're simply acting on behalf of a member state who doesn't want the violence and death?

    It matters because in any democratic system it is important that people generally understand the concept so the democratic process is transparent. This is true in the Westminster system: you have the Crown, and HM Government appointed from Parliament. The European Union system on the other hand was always intended to be complex, as it helped hide what was being created. I have studied this for years and I still cannot fully grasp it. It's *designed* to be that way as it avoids accountability.
    Not to be offensive, but just because you don't understand something doesn't make it complex.

    Indeed, which is why I now believe the solution is No Deal.
    cool have fun in Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak View Post
    I don't understand the pessimism? I know very little about this stuff but things aren't getting better?.. surely it's time to change direction?

    I've spoken with a lot of the older generation, ones that fought for what we have. I saw no fear, they genuinely think that leaving the EU will be best for this country. You can't tell me my Granddad (90) doesn't have my interests at heart? Or Norman (97), a family friend, doesn't have his grandchildren and great-grandchildren's interests at heart?
    In the nicest way possible, just because they may have their interests at heart doesn't actually mean they understand it or that it's right. You don't just change direction in the hope you don't drive into a lake, you look at a map first and that's actually a lot of peoples problems. The whole process was started with no clear direction from government, and there really is still no clear direction to this day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    In the nicest way possible, just because they may have their interests at heart doesn't actually mean they understand it or that it's right. You don't just change direction in the hope you don't drive into a lake, you look at a map first and that's actually a lot of peoples problems. The whole process was started with no clear direction from government, and there really is still no clear direction to this day.
    Yeah I see your point and agree. On the #LosersVoteMarch thread I mentioned the voters not understanding the implications of Leave. Frustrating to say the least! And yes a total lack of direction from the Government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    first of all, NI wouldn't be leaving the UK
    If there was an EU-imposed border across the Irish Sea then yes, that is exactly what would be happening

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    second of all, I never said I supported it
    You literally said it was the only option other than getting Ireland to join the UK, which yes is laughable but leads to:

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    so what point are you trying to make exactly?
    The same thing I've been saying for the past few posts, quite possibly. Words are haaaaaaaaaard

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJesus View Post
    Not sure why you think it's laughable to make Ireland leave the EU but 100% perfect planning to force NI to leave Britain and join the EU. Neither of those are good plans at all
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJesus View Post
    I really can't understand how you're seeing one side asking the other to secede territory as horrific and the other as being totally reasonable and wonderful and oh my what a lovely bunch of chaps
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJesus View Post
    Let's try asking AGAIN: how is it that asking Ireland to leave the EU is terrible but asking NI to leave the UK somehow isn't?
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