Brexit Deal (yes, really)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Problem is Nigel Farage painted a fairytail which was never possible. He raised expectations and mis-led the naive British public. Then Boris and co jumped on this bandwagon.

But how is it not possible? We're not actually asking for much when you examine it: merely our pre-1973 constitutional status that we've had since The Reformation and that Australia, Canada, New Zealand and countless others have today in 2018. The idea that all countries located in Europe geographically, must be tied to this bizzare proto-state is a very strange (and outdated) idea. Reminds me of the German Confederation struggle in regards to Prussia and Austria. The revolutionary act is not Brexit, but European integration which seeks to overcome/subdue international constitutional and geopolitical norms.

Interesting you mention Farage, this picture was from last night. Plotting...

[dbgtz]

undertaker I don't really think you're in a place to call anything outdated since you seem to be keen to align modern UK foreign policy to historical UK foreign policy on the basis that "it was like that"
and to be honest the idea of the EU is the opposite of outdated, it's pretty reactionary to the rise of larger states (US/Russia/China/India)
it's also just one of the worst arguments you could make for near anything

[-:Undertaker:-]

undertaker I don't really think you're in a place to call anything outdated since you seem to be keen to align modern UK foreign policy to historical UK foreign policy on the basis that "it was like that"

Because it is still "like that".

On the continent ever since German unification, Germany and Russia have been the two main continental land powers.

and to be honest the idea of the EU is the opposite of outdated, it's pretty reactionary to the rise of larger states (US/Russia/China/India)
it's also just one of the worst arguments you could make for near anything

The EU is the opposite of outdated, really?

WATCH | Huge! Angela Merkel echoes Macron and Juncker's call for a "real, true European army" in her address to the European Parliament. Huge applause. These Euro-fanatics are dead serious about this European "Empire".

Remainers, did you vote for this?https://t.co/iICfFb8qqg pic.twitter.com/B2clJ4jqI2

— Leave.EU (@LeaveEUOfficial) November 13, 2018

Seems to me Europe still has the same (usually French or German) lunatics calling for state/army building hundreds of years later.

Why does a trade bloc require an army? lego_hmm

[dbgtz]

Because it is still "like that".

On the continent ever since German unification, Germany and Russia have been the two main continental land powers.

And somehow Russia, who killed British civilians on British soil in peace time, is more of an ally? Not really sure in your logic ignoring France either.

The EU is the opposite of outdated, really?

WATCH | Huge! Angela Merkel echoes Macron and Juncker's call for a "real, true European army" in her address to the European Parliament. Huge applause. These Euro-fanatics are dead serious about this European "Empire".

Remainers, did you vote for this?https://t.co/iICfFb8qqg pic.twitter.com/B2clJ4jqI2

— Leave.EU (@LeaveEUOfficial) November 13, 2018

Seems to me Europe still has the same (usually French or German) lunatics calling for state/army building hundreds of years later.

Why does a trade bloc require an army? lego_hmm

what's that got to do with things being outdated, are you referring to colonialism there??
time alone doesn't make something outdated and the speech was pretty much a reaction to Trump being Trump (nice of him to miss the ww1 service because of a bit of rain)
also how does being out of the EU prevent this exactly..? oh but being in means we'd be forced to sign up! oh except in the case of the euro, schengen and a whole bunch of other opt outs we have

but again, you're really in no position to criticise people for being outdated when you yourself are hung up on what was

[-:Undertaker:-]

And somehow Russia, who killed British civilians on British soil in peace time, is more of an ally? Not really sure in your logic ignoring France either.

For some reason you seem to believe I believe Russia is a friendly ally. It isn't our ally or friend, it simply shares broadly the same worries about power in Europe in regards to Germany as Britain does. Our foreign policy objectives happen to align - as they say, countries don't have friends, they have interests.

And as for France, France has long fretted over what to do in regards to Germany, and since the war it has decided to co-opt Germany in an attempt to control it or guide it. The French President at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall threatened to veto German reunification unless Germany agreed to monetary union - which is the price it paid with Maastricht few years later.

what's that got to do with things being outdated, are you referring to colonialism there??
time alone doesn't make something outdated and the speech was pretty much a reaction to Trump being Trump (nice of him to miss the ww1 service because of a bit of rain)

So you have no problem with the German Chancellor calling for a superstate army? Far from being a throwaway comment, I would argue it is of upmost importance. I imagine it would be very hard to be in your position, on the one hand your side constantly tells the British people that we have nothing to fear from European integration and that 'ever closer union' is simply window-dressing phrase in a treaty over 50 years old, as time after time the important players in the project continue to undermine what you are saying openly.

I mean, just look at this gem from the former Belgian PM to which the whole chamber applauded.

also how does being out of the EU prevent this exactly..? oh but being in means we'd be forced to sign up! oh except in the case of the euro, schengen and a whole bunch of other opt outs we have

It prevents Britain being a part of this crazed project. And as for the veto argument, this always makes me laugh - your side constantly claim that Britain is the "awkward partner" yet you tell us to stay in and spend our time, money and effort vetoing what the other member states want. Why should Britain have to embroil itself in crazy European affairs? The last two times look what happened.

I say let them get on with it, "spendid isolation" as the Victorian era policy advocated.

but again, you're really in no position to criticise people for being outdated when you yourself are hung up on what was

I take the long view of history - the players may change, but the power dynamics remain the same as 100 years ago.

[FlyingJesus]

Presumably, despite whatever you're fighting about right now, we can all agree that (whether you want it to be tighter or freer) May's plan is shit. Like totally shit. I mean it's kind of impressive that no-one on either side of the overall Brexit debate thinks this is good

[-:Undertaker:-]

Absolutely no shifting of opinion either.

UK, ComRes poll:

EU membership ref.

Remain: 51% (-4)
Leave: 49% (+4)

+/- vs. 11 Jan. '18

Field work: 14/11/18 – 15/11/18
Sample size: 1,752

— Europe Elects (@EuropeElects) November 17, 2018

While the Tories drop following her agreement...

Westminster voting intentiomn:

LAB: 39% (+2)
CON: 36% (-5)
UKIP: 8% (+2)
LDEM: 7% (-1)
GRN: 3% (-)

via @OpiniumReseach, 14 Nov
Chgs. w/ 11 Oct

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) November 17, 2018

@FlyingJesus;

I'm frankly appalled. I really did believe her Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. What a fool I was.

Still, I am not totally disappointed. To me, the trajectory from this point onwards will be separation much as the trajectory when we joined was inevitably towards ever closer union. But a slower approach will waste years, if not a decade or two, when we could simply get this process over and done with now. No Deal is now preferable, with a series of 'mini' agreements covering the basics before March 2019.

[-:Undertaker:-]

[-:Undertaker:-]

The Political Declaration came out today and the deal got *even worse*. It's simply staggering that she has surrendered like this.

Scots Tory MPs letter to PM on 14/11 says specifically that “access and quota shares cannot be included in the Future Economic Partnership”. Political Declaration now agreed shows they have been. The 13 therefore cant support May’s #Brexit deal ( including @DavidMundellDCT ) pic.twitter.com/KpqFQ1oM9a

— Michael Russell (@Feorlean) November 22, 2018

There is no other country in the WORLD which demands access to another country's fishing waters as part of a trade deal, nor is there a country in the world which signs up and copies another's laws across the economy in order to trade. It's an absolute scandal.

Meanwhile before this declaration the number of Tory MPs alone saying they will not vote for this agreement reached 85.

[FlyingJesus]

More and more convinced with each announcement that her real plan is to actually force this "people's vote" aka referendum 2 electric boogaloo, in full knowledge that the total of remainers plus leavers who hate this deal will mean no Brexit at all in the end