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Thread: Change My Mind

  1. #1
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    Default Change My Mind


    Hey

    Okay so, for about 10 years now I have struggled with being gay and my opinion at this point is against it, as it always has been. That's why I don't date or anything to do with it. But this has been an absolute mental nightmare, with beliefs coming up against feelings - and although I pushed it to the back of my mind for the last two or so years, it is coming up again lately. It's pretty much torture.

    So right, I have spent so much time over the years going back and forth over the arguments, and what I always can't stand is like when people just say "Love is Love" or "Religion is all nonsense anyway" as though I am expected to drop my values/beliefs/what I see as logic for a slogan. I think I am pretty open minded, even if I seem stubborn on here, and I have changed my mind on a few things before - and *always* during debate which is why I like debate so much because there's nothing like hearing something you haven't heard before/can't respond to.

    So with this I thought right, write my main points down in statement/question form and try to give as strong an answer back. Maybe if it's written down i'll process it better and can directly make a chart where I can say well X is proven false by Y.

    I'm going to do it myself too but I would appreciate it if anyone would like to argue back against the points I have posted below and trash them/tear them apart, if possible. I won't respond/argue back, I will just read and see if I have considered that argument before/how I feel about what's been said. Not massive essays, just like taking apart the argument with counter points.

    Many thanks if you could have a shot at it. For the record, I feel questions 5 and 3 are the strongest.


    Q1. Isn’t the fact that most normal people recoil from gay men holding hands, or kissing, evidence to show that it is unnatural and thus repulsive in the same way we find human-animal sexual contact disgusting and/or evil?


    Q2. The spread of HIV in homosexual males is far higher than the rest of the population, does this not show that nature disapproves of male homosexuality via natural selection? In the same way that weaker animals die that are "wrong", ie the runt of litter.


    Q3. All major religions around the world voice disapproval of homosexuality, meaning the morality of our society and many others is underpinned by these values. If this suddenly changes in regards to homosexuality, what does this mean for the rest of those values?


    Q4. Isn’t the act of gay sex completely unnatural, leading to many diseases, as well as being biologically redundant? How does the act itself make any sense?


    Q5. Given most animals are hard-wired to procreate, isn’t having homosexual attraction simply a mental illness or something wrong in the wiring of the brain and/or the hormones?
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 03-03-2019 at 12:51 AM.


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    I liked this thread and intended to respond when I originally saw it but wanted time to put some thought into my answers. It's kind of late and I'm tired so this isn't like my best work but I've had some time to think about your questions which will do. I'm also sad no one else has responded yet so I'm hoping they're doing the same thing as me, but maybe not. You have to admit this is a slightly intimidating request you've made, though, Dan. But I had fun answering so what the hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Q1. Isn’t the fact that most normal people recoil from gay men holding hands, or kissing, evidence to show that it is unnatural and thus repulsive in the same way we find human-animal sexual contact disgusting and/or evil?
    Disgust is an entirely personal reaction depending on all sorts of factors. I'm disgusted by people drinking hot drinks whilst simultaneously eating hot soup (honestly, disgusted) but wouldn't describe that as evil. Go back a relatively short amount of time into the past and people were disgusted by women's ankles, and would've been disgusted by cold shoulder jumpers, ripped jeans, jeans in general really... I could keep listing. And sure, it's down to personal taste whether or not you like the things I listed, but my point is what's once considered unacceptable and/or "disgusting" as you say, changes over time. So I think you're trying to say gay men holding hands, etc. is inherently disgusting, and I'm saying nope: just wait a few years and see if people still find it disgusting. Up to you whether you want to spend those years waiting, advocating change, or something in between, though.

    Side note: not a strong argument but, whilst I dislike all hetero/homo/whatever signs of PDA, I love gay relationships in films and often find them much more affectionate and meaningful than hetero ones. So, hello, not everyone is disgusted.

    Q2. The spread of HIV in homosexual males is far higher than the rest of the population, does this not show that nature disapproves of male homosexuality via natural selection? In the same way that weaker animals die that are "wrong", ie the runt of litter.
    I'm not educated enough on this to provide a particularly worthy response. I could speculate and go down the chicken or egg argument of gay sex was stigmatised > so kept secret > so never educated about protection and hygiene > higher risk of HIV > more stigma surrounding > continued secret > etc.
    But I don't know what I'm talking about here so hey.


    Q3. All major religions around the world voice disapproval of homosexuality, meaning the morality of our society and many others is underpinned by these values. If this suddenly changes in regards to homosexuality, what does this mean for the rest of those values?
    I have the utmost respect for a person or an organisation having the level of self awareness and humility to turn around and say "hey, maybe we're wrong about this".

    But maybe consider this: moral values are entirely dependent on time and place in history. Y'know like we're not cool about having slaves anymore, we're not really down for burning witches, we're not keen on killing Catholics or Jews (I could continue but you get my point). So as more major religions start taking a more tolerant (and actually an increasingly accepting) approaches to homosexuality, have you considered thinking that they're not saying they were wrong before (because actually the general population agreed with them and they were generally in keeping with the moral opinions of the time), but that past views on homosexuality are becoming less relevant? That has no impact on other values in society. That's acknowledging something has become an issue and deciding to adjust accordingly. It's happened before, it'll happen again. But it happens very slowly and takes years/decades for each change.

    Q4. Isn’t the act of gay sex completely unnatural, leading to many diseases, as well as being biologically redundant? How does the act itself make any sense?
    I've tried to address the disease question a little earlier so I'll ignore that here.

    As for your point about biological redundancy, masturbation should also be completely unnatural, right? And protected hetero sex? Or heterosexual sex after the woman has reached the menopause? There's no biological point to any of that so it should be stopped, yeah? A lot of stuff is biologically redundant but it's a hell of a lot of fun so... Man, nothing makes any sense if you think too much into it.

    Q5. Given most animals are hard-wired to procreate, isn’t having homosexual attraction simply a mental illness or something wrong in the wiring of the brain and/or the hormones?
    Most things can be labelled as a mental illness if you pick them apart enough. And all animals will naturally keep going back to reliable sources to get another dopamine hit; it's entirely natural to crave something you know will make you feel good. And humans have an extra good reason to value the good feelings over procreation because we know for sure that there's literally bloody billions of us so everyone single individual working to keep up the next generation isn't absolutely vital (née would arguably be detrimental) to our survival as a species.
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    yeah this didn't work. probably did the opposite tbh



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    1) I'd say it's more learned behaviour, but even if not "unnatural" is not inherently bad and "natural" is not inherently good. For example, the interal combustion engine does not exist in nature but rape does.


    2) This shows a profound misunderstanding of how diseases work. Being gay doesn't create HIV, it's often spread more among gay males because of a lack of contraception usage - understandably there's no pregnancy risk so people just think they're fine without.


    3) It's a pretty minor aspect that doesn't actually get touched on much at all in the texts but is blown up enormously in society because historically homosexuality meant a lack of breeding, and once upon a millennia or two ago the species could have gone extinct if people stopped having babies. Regardless, rabbis who spend their entire lives translating and debating the oldest of religious texts have said (and this actually applies to your situation particularly) that for those not in the clergy it is far less sinful to accept your sexuality than to cause yourself harm and anguish by forcing yourself to not love.


    4) Buggery happens all through nature and is definitely not restricted to male/male relationships. With proper protection and preparation there's no more risk to it than... say... sunbathing and drinking beer


    5) Not necessarily, there are a great many things humans do that other animals don't. The act we are engaged in right now (discussion and reasoning) is something that no other creature on the planet has ever been observed to do, but I wouldn't call it a mental illness. Even if homosexuality is a mental illness of some sort, going by the harm principle it's not one with any debilitating effects and so isn't really an illness at all - just a state of being and a preference much as one person may love eating nuts and I can't stand them.
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    Wow. My usage of this forum is limited to checking the news forum when I'm bored or something interesting has happened but the title intrigued me. I'll admit I didn't expect it to be about such a deep and personal struggle.

    Q1. Isn’t the fact that most normal people recoil from gay men holding hands, or kissing, evidence to show that it is unnatural and thus repulsive in the same way we find human-animal sexual contact disgusting and/or evil?

    Let's break this down: is it a fact? Do most normal people recoil from gay men holding hands or kissing? I don't think it is. Plenty of couples are affectionate in public, both hetero and homo, and from what I've seen, most people don't bat an eye. Would you consider it normal to recoil? Are you not merely reflecting your own personal conflict onto other people to normalise your own internal struggle? Oh well most normal people recoil so it's okay that I do too. Those that don't are not normal, they're liberals or luvvies, I'm in the silent majority that find that unnatural. An alternative theory is that sometimes we see what we want to see so if we think X then we're more likely to notice people that agree with us. There was a name for it but I can't remember what it was.

    Let's just presume hypothetically for the sake of argument that this is a fact, it seems a strong leap to say that this is evidence that said act is unnatural. I am not sure that human behaviour can be so easily distilled down into one single motive particularly when said reason is such an abstract concept of what is natural and what isn't. There are a number of more plausible explanations for why someone's instinct would be to recoil from such behaviour (it's gross, for example - not so much holding hands but kissing affectionately in public I find a little nauseating sometimes regardless of sexuality).

    Q2. The spread of HIV in homosexual males is far higher than the rest of the population, does this not show that nature disapproves of male homosexuality via natural selection? In the same way that weaker animals die that are "wrong", ie the runt of litter.

    I agree with Tom on this one. No pregnancy implications so less likely to worry about contraception so more likely to increase diseases.

    Q3. All major religions around the world voice disapproval of homosexuality, meaning the morality of our society and many others is underpinned by these values. If this suddenly changes in regards to homosexuality, what does this mean for the rest of those values?

    I am of the belief that religion does not have ownership of morality or any such concept. It is more the case that religion can provide a vessel to inform an interpretation. Humans by their very nature try to make sense of the world and will resort to anything that helps them to do so. As for whether moral norms are eroded by the erosion of one, I don't believe that for a second. Morality is not a code of ethics where if one collapses, the others will do also. Moral codes can exist on their own merits. Believing that homosexuality is okay doesn't mean you think it's okay to murder people. There is a sociological theory (don't roll your eyes at me lol) that even in a society of angels there would still be deviant behaviour, we would just have higher standards. In any society therefore, there will always be morality because there will always be a sense that there is something right and wrong. In terms of the religious interpretation, that is probably outside of my expertise. What I can definitely say with certainty is that you are not the first person nor will you be the last that has had this internal struggle between their innermost desires and beliefs/value system. Have you considered looking for spiritual guidance from people that have had this very same issue?

    Q4. Isn’t the act of gay sex completely unnatural, leading to many diseases, as well as being biologically redundant? How does the act itself make any sense?

    I am bisexual. My sexuality is just a footnote to who I am precisely because of my answer to this question: What is sexuality? I'll admit that my opinion on this doesn't seem to be in vogue at the moment but to me, sexuality is just a biological response. If you're a man and you're attracted to women, you're straight. If you're attracted to men, you're gay. If you're attracted to both, you're bisexual. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I know there are all sorts of other terms flying around and I also know that there are a lot of people that build their identity around their sexual orientation. Fair enough, that's their choice to make. If you look at a man and have a physical attraction, isn't that biological response actually proof that it is natural! If it wasn't natural then why does it happen?

    Along those lines and showing why this is relevant, if pleasure is derived from gay sex, that is another biological response ergo it must be natural. If it is unnatural then why would it be an experience that is pleasant?

    Q5. Given most animals are hard-wired to procreate, isn’t having homosexual attraction simply a mental illness or something wrong in the wiring of the brain and/or the hormones?

    I realise that I have wandered into this very subject with the above answer. So if we concede as I believe above that homosexual attraction is natural, does this then infer that something wrong has happened somewhere (hormones or wiring) if our primary function is to procreate? I agree with Tom, humans have simply evolved beyond such crude and restrictive purposes. Homosexuality is still a minority but I'm not sure that qualifies it to count as incorrect wiring or mental illness. These different attractions is not so much a mental illness/wrong wiring but simply a great example of how diverse humankind can be. Also, I have implied in my answer that this is only limited to humans as I'm not an expert on the animal kingdom but it seems plausible to me that this same diversity would also apply to other species too.

    -----------------------------------------------

    I am going to move beyond the question/answer format to talk more personally. I will add the caveat that I may be way off base here with regard to your own personal experience but perhaps if you are looking for some food for thought, it might give you something else to consider. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I am bisexual. I turned 27 yesterday and I am still a virgin. There are a number of reasons for this but if I boiled it down to one thing, I came to the realisation that I am bloody scared! I joined Grindr when I was 24 with the full intention of using it for the same reason that the vast majority of people use it for: to get laid. Obviously, if I found someone to love, great but being realistic, I knew that's not what it was for. Without going into massive detail, I did actually have some offers from people I would consider sane, decent-looking and I had an attraction to. Because of my fear, I used every single excuse in the book to get out of it and it took me a long time to get to the point where I could admit to myself I was just scared. I used all sorts of other excuses up to that point: "I'm just not that sort of guy", "I need to spend more time getting to know someone", "it's not me, it's them, they're too clingy", "urgh why do they have to want it straightaway, can't we just chat for a bit first?" Whilst your situation is not the exact same and again I repeat the caveat that this might not apply to you: is it possible that you yourself are just scared and you're trying to frame this argument within your moral compass/religious beliefs and an intellectual argument that you can get lost in precisely because that's your comfort zone? It's easier for you to talk about homosexuality in those terms because it's a place you're comfortable with and you don't want to take that leap into the unknown with dating and sex.

    I don't mean to cause offence, I realise that this may be a genuine struggle and your conflicts shouldn't be so trivialized, I just thought it was worth raising. If the above doesn't apply to you, I would definitely apply my advice earlier in the post about seeking spiritual guidance from others that have had the same experience. I took the time to respond to this because implicit throughout your post is the notion that you yourself feel diseased, unnatural and you don't particularly like these feelings that you are having and I don't think anyone should be in that sort of pain. Even if my answers are not convincing, I hope you one day find the inner peace you're looking for.
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