Tory Leadership

[-:Undertaker:-]

YouGov.

[dbgtz]

I can't find the more in-depth stuff I read at time, but found these.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eers-7n8gmnvkb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...equers-meeting

i may be mistaken but i dont see any mention of a fta in any of that

Brexiteers are talking about technological solutions, but I am saying that I personally do not care and would like to see a full border implemented anyway like we have with the French Republic. The Irish Republic is a different country - I see no reason to spend hundreds of millions trying to find complicated ways around what most other countries do, which is build a manned border post with a customs checks car park at the side. Brexit aside, for a while now I have disagreed with the special treatment given to the Republic.

but i thought we dont have a full border with the french/schengen and that part of the reason to leave so we could have this border
really does show your lack of shit giving for anyone in NI though

I don't recall Farage making jokes about acid throwing at other politicians, so don't see the hypocrisy.

no but he has implied shooting politicians (or at least threatening them with violence)

pretty sure hes always said police shouldnt investigate jokes, free speech etc.
here is him complaining over what is a completely inoffensive joke: https://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-29/...-news-for-you/

[-:Undertaker:-]

Reassuring stuff from the Boris camp today/tonight.

No more caving in and humiliating this great country any longer.

If I become PM, we will leave the EU on 31st October, deal or no deal. Today I have asked @Jeremy_Hunt whether he will also commit to this date, no matter what. We must keep our promises to the British people and deliver Brexit - no ifs, no buts, and no second referendum. pic.twitter.com/YgRSfESSFY

— Boris Johnson (@BorisJohnson) June 25, 2019

Boris Johnson categorically rules out the UK being a member of the EU beyond October 31. Tells @rosskempsell that date is "do or die" and rules out extending Article 50 in any circumstances – his strongest public position to date and extremely tough to row back from

— Alex Wickham (@alexwickham) June 25, 2019

Johnson's most Remainer backers sticking with him after he hardened on no-deal today

Hancock source: "It's important to deliver Brexit as soon as possible" (previously said no deal not an option)

Damian Collins (used to back a 2nd ref) says of the no-deal plan: "I support it"

— Alex Wickham (@alexwickham) June 25, 2019

This is what his aides have been saying for a while: that @BorisJohnson would ignore a Parliamentary vote against no deal. Which -possible or otherwise - is music to the ears of millions of voters https://t.co/3RXVagV9T6

— Isabel Oakeshott (@IsabelOakeshott) June 25, 2019

i may be mistaken but i dont see any mention of a fta in any of that

A lot of eurosceptics continue to go on about an FTA with the EU, but this isn't on the table at the moment as the EU will only accept an FTA applying to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland because of the (imagined) border issues. Of course, an FTA is possible as the EU does with many other countries - but in this instance the EU is demanding that we carve away part of our kingdom and place it under EU law/customs. The EU in time will likely bend on this, but hasn't whilst our cowardly politicians refuse to Leave without a Deal.

but i thought we dont have a full border with the french/schengen and that part of the reason to leave so we could have this border
really does show your lack of shit giving for anyone in NI though

Actually, my concern for Northern Ireland is my primary reason for refusing to support the Withdrawal Agreement even though had it gone through, my long-term aim of seeing this country leave the EU would have happened back in March of this year. The reason is, that I will not see Ulster thrown under the bus and annexed to the European Union in order to get a deal through. The people of Ulster should be ruled through the Crown, like the rest of us, and not by the European Commission and ECJ.

Britain leaves and regains independence as one sovereign country. That's non-negotiable to me and certainly the DUP.

My nationality after all is British, not English.

[dbgtz]

Reassuring stuff from the Boris camp today/tonight.

No more caving in and humiliating this great country any longer.

If I become PM, we will leave the EU on 31st October, deal or no deal. Today I have asked @Jeremy_Hunt whether he will also commit to this date, no matter what. We must keep our promises to the British people and deliver Brexit - no ifs, no buts, and no second referendum. pic.twitter.com/YgRSfESSFY

— Boris Johnson (@BorisJohnson) June 25, 2019

Boris Johnson categorically rules out the UK being a member of the EU beyond October 31. Tells @rosskempsell that date is "do or die" and rules out extending Article 50 in any circumstances – his strongest public position to date and extremely tough to row back from

— Alex Wickham (@alexwickham) June 25, 2019

Johnson's most Remainer backers sticking with him after he hardened on no-deal today

Hancock source: "It's important to deliver Brexit as soon as possible" (previously said no deal not an option)

Damian Collins (used to back a 2nd ref) says of the no-deal plan: "I support it"

— Alex Wickham (@alexwickham) June 25, 2019

This is what his aides have been saying for a while: that @BorisJohnson would ignore a Parliamentary vote against no deal. Which -possible or otherwise - is music to the ears of millions of voters https://t.co/3RXVagV9T6

— Isabel Oakeshott (@IsabelOakeshott) June 25, 2019

remember when you wrongly accused C4 of spreading fake news yet now you support the man who was literally fired for spreading fake news

A lot of eurosceptics continue to go on about an FTA with the EU, but this isn't on the table at the moment as the EU will only accept an FTA applying to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland because of the (imagined) border issues. Of course, an FTA is possible as the EU does with many other countries - but in this instance the EU is demanding that we carve away part of our kingdom and place it under EU law/customs. The EU in time will likely bend on this, but hasn't whilst our cowardly politicians refuse to Leave without a Deal.

so when do you expect the easiest trade deal in history to be on the table

Actually, my concern for Northern Ireland is my primary reason for refusing to support the Withdrawal Agreement even though had it gone through, my long-term aim of seeing this country leave the EU would have happened back in March of this year. The reason is, that I will not see Ulster thrown under the bus and annexed to the European Union in order to get a deal through. The people of Ulster should be ruled through the Crown, like the rest of us, and not by the European Commission and ECJ.

Britain leaves and regains independence as one sovereign country. That's non-negotiable to me and certainly the DUP.

My nationality after all is British, not English.

NI voted to remain though so more doing them a favour than throwing them under a bus
you simply dont give a shit for the people who will actually have to put up with these issues

[-:Undertaker:-]

remember when you wrongly accused C4 of spreading fake news yet now you support the man who was literally fired for spreading fake news

I couldn't care less who the PM is so long as they honour what we voted for and get us out.

so when do you expect the easiest trade deal in history to be on the table

When the EU stops demanding vassalage in return for it.

NI voted to remain though so more doing them a favour than throwing them under a bus
you simply dont give a shit for the people who will actually have to put up with these issues

The United Kingdom isn't a confederation, it is a unitary single sovereign state. We're not talking about the Holy Roman Empire here. You seemingly don't give a shit about Northern Ireland given you appear to be advocating it follows EU law forever without a say, and is broken away from British law when the majority in Northern Ireland want to stay British. Our country comes first here, not the EU/the Republic or the IRA.

What is it in you that loves the EU so much that makes you want to hand over a quarter of your own country to them?

[dbgtz]

I couldn't care less who the PM is so long as they honour what we voted for and get us out.

ignoring the part where he consistently lies so god knows if he even will
when is it you plan on coming back to the uk anyway

When the EU stops demanding vassalage in return for it.

but we were told there would be a deal http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/...g_newdeal.html

The United Kingdom isn't a confederation, it is a unitary single sovereign state. We're not talking about the Holy Roman Empire here. You seemingly don't give a shit about Northern Ireland given you appear to be advocating it follows EU law forever without a say, and is broken away from British law when the majority in Northern Ireland want to stay British. Our country comes first here, not the EU/the Republic or the IRA.

What is it in you that loves the EU so much that makes you want to hand over a quarter of your own country to them?

when did I say NI shouldn't have a say

you seem to be attempting to play some nationalist emotive card as if it would bother me
what bothers me more you're willing to put people who aren't even in the same country as you right now at risk because you feel uncomfortable with the EU even though it basically makes no noticable impact on your life, aside from the FoM you are using of course
what bothers me is you support a proven liar (which you don't even accept your own hypocrisy on) because no deal blah even though (a) nobody actually campaigned for a no deal and (b) is universally accepted to cause damage to some degree, all because you feel uncomfortable
and your discomfort is completely irrational - you try formulating a fact-based argument on why leaving the EU is a great idea but it always descends into being about sovereignty or some **** because your claims are often proven to be false

fundamentally you seem to care more for how the country looks on a map than anyone actually in it

[FlyingJesus]

While I often vehemently disagree with Dan I think it's pretty daft to sweep aside all the financial aspects that are a major sticking point for people who actually read into it as "sovereignty or some ****". It's a fact that we pay an obscene amount into a system that then gives us a little bit back but tells us where it can be spent, and keeps the rest for paying off debts that other countries have accrued. In that one instance the money is the main point but sovereignty (or some ****) is very much an important part of it as well, so not really something to just rule out.
Also interested to see where "there should be a proper border between two separately ruled countries" became "ha ha ha we should put people at risk" in your mind

[-:Undertaker:-]

ignoring the part where he consistently lies so god knows if he even will

Who knows if he will indeed, but if he does not then it will mean the end of the Conservative and Unionist Party.

when is it you plan on coming back to the uk anyway

Possibly end of August, back home for a bit saving, then travelling in the summer then (maybe) back to Spain September 2020.

but we were told there would be a deal http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/...g_newdeal.html

And a Deal has been offered by the European Union. We didn't say we should accept any deal. Would you vote for her Deal?

when did I say NI shouldn't have a say

you seem to be attempting to play some nationalist emotive card as if it would bother me

You should be emotive about your country and her people. I am emotive because I care.

what bothers me more you're willing to put people who aren't even in the same country as you right now at risk because you feel uncomfortable with the EU even though it basically makes no noticable impact on your life, aside from the FoM you are using of course

At risk of what? More absurd and frankly laughable forecasts like we got from George Osborne's Treasury in 2016?

what bothers me is you support a proven liar (which you don't even accept your own hypocrisy on) because no deal blah even though (a) nobody actually campaigned for a no deal and (b) is universally accepted to cause damage to some degree, all because you feel uncomfortable
and your discomfort is completely irrational - you try formulating a fact-based argument on why leaving the EU is a great idea but it always descends into being about sovereignty or some **** because your claims are often proven to be false

I don't understand why you cannot understand, even if you may disagree, that sovereignty matters to a lot of people as a principle or fundamental value for a nation. It mattered to the Hungarians in 1919, the Indians in 1947, the Croats in 1991 and it mattered to the South Sudanese in 2011. It matters to a majority of people in this country, that they live under a political system that they feel is legitimate.

It boils down to identity - I am British, not European. My loyalty to and my country is Britain, not Europe.

fundamentally you seem to care more for how the country looks on a map than anyone actually in it

Actually, it is because I view all parts of my country as equal. Northern Ireland is just as important as England, and Cardiff is just as part of the country as Edinburgh, London or Liverpool. I don't rank parts of the country as pieces of rotting meat I can throw to the EU for a shitty deal.

[dbgtz]

Possibly end of August, back home for a bit saving, then travelling in the summer then (maybe) back to Spain September 2020.

Well at least you should be here for a bit of this shit then

And a Deal has been offered by the European Union. We didn't say we should accept any deal. Would you vote for her Deal?

It explicitely states "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

You should be emotive about your country and her people. I am emotive because I care.

why should I?
what good does nationalism bring?

At risk of what? More absurd and frankly laughable forecasts like we got from George Osborne's Treasury in 2016?

no, I'm obviously referring to NI and the border

just so you know there's plenty of brexiteers pointing out economic fallout from this now

I don't understand why you cannot understand, even if you may disagree, that sovereignty matters to a lot of people as a principle or fundamental value for a nation. It mattered to the Hungarians in 1919, the Indians in 1947, the Croats in 1991 and it mattered to the South Sudanese in 2011. It matters to a majority of people in this country, that they live under a political system that they feel is legitimate.

It boils down to identity - I am British, not European. My loyalty to and my country is Britain, not Europe.

seems like you ignored everything but the bit at the end about how you turn to the idea of sovereignty
the strong difference i believe to the countries you listed out and the eu is that, regardless if you agree entirely how its done, we (as a country) do have influence during every stage of the process

Actually, it is because I view all parts of my country as equal. Northern Ireland is just as important as England, and Cardiff is just as part of the country as Edinburgh, London or Liverpool. I don't rank parts of the country as pieces of rotting meat I can throw to the EU for a shitty deal.

if you view England, NI, Wales and Scotland to be equally important then it was 2-2 to remain/leave
you also seemed to ignore the part where I basically said it should be up to NI

but really you sort of proved my point as you don't speak of the people in those places

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well at least you should be here for a bit of this shit then

Celebrating, yes.

A reminder I was in Britain for the "chaos" of 23rd June 2016 that was predicted. The only chaos we experienced was the sound of dinner plates and wine glasses shattering in middle class north London homes at the shock of the great unwashed having their say.

It explicitely states "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

Indeed, and they're welcome to agree a FTA with us allowing relatively free trade when they drop their demands for 1/4 of our country.

why should I?
what good does nationalism bring?

Can you point to one place in the world where nationalism does not exist?

All the places that tried to suppress existing nationalism actually ended up creating frankenstein 'false' states by creating new identities and wiping away the older identities - which is ironically an aggressive form of nationalism itself. The Soviet Union. Yugoslavia. Ottoman Emprie. Republic of India. The Sudan. Libya. Iraq. And now the European Union with its anthem, flag, military and "ever closer union".

What good will creating a new nation spread across 28 vastly complex/different countries bring?

no, I'm obviously referring to NI and the border

What are you claiming is going to happen if a normal border between two different countries is implemented?

seems like you ignored everything but the bit at the end about how you turn to the idea of sovereignty
the strong difference i believe to the countries you listed out and the eu is that, regardless if you agree entirely how its done, we (as a country) do have influence during every stage of the process

Having influence, 1 of 28, isn't good enough.

Australia, Canada, New Zealand and America do not feel the need to have "influence" in the European Union. They just do things themselves where they have 100% influence over their own laws and politics. That's national sovereignty working in action.

Why would I settle for the influence of 3.5% over my own laws/politics when I could have the influence of 100%?

if you view England, NI, Wales and Scotland to be equally important then it was 2-2 to remain/leave

Eh? What kind of thinking is this?

We don't have an electoral college in this country because we're not a confederation, we're a unitary sovereign state. You're applying the constitutional logic of the Holy Roman Empire, United States of America or Dominion of Canada to a completely different constitutional arrangement. That would be like talking about a hypothetical British Presidency at the time of the next Coronation. Like, what?

The question on the ballot was should the United Kingdom leave or remain in the European Union. The people said Leave.

you also seemed to ignore the part where I basically said it should be up to NI

but really you sort of proved my point as you don't speak of the people in those places

What should be up to Northern Ireland?

And it was up to Northern Ireland - correct me if I am wrong, were Britons in Ulster issued ballot papers in the 2016 EU referendum?