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  1. #11
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    Pretty big step taken yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    this is obviously a hypothetical, but most people are expecting the us to force their food standards on us and the big one here is chlorinated chicken
    there are a few reasons why eu countries do not do this, partly down to animal welfare and partly down to the fact that, at least to the eus belief, chlorinating the chicken is just covering up poor quality and leads to greater cases of illness akin to poorly patching a pot hole vs properly retarmarcing the road
    Most people are expecting... you mean most Remainers keep asserting?

    The chicken argument is such a silly argument. Firstly, your water is chlorinated. Secondly, consumer choice. I ate chicken in America and I am still here breathing, tasted the same as any other chicken I have had whether it was British, Indian or Spanish. It's basically washing chicken.

    That's not to say I am all for it being included in a trade deal. What we accept is entirely down to us post-Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    theres also the excessive use of growth hormones and other chemicals banned in the EU
    in the eu as well, certain foods and drinks have a "protected status" in how it can be named, e.g. you cant make any old cheese in greece and call it "Dorset Blue cheese". the country of origin is also very much labelled on eu products, something which i believe the us has said we would have to drop
    None of this is unique to the EU. Nor can America make us change our food standards if we do not want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    those are obviously just some examples from one country, but a country most people seem to be pushing us to have a deal with
    and the fact is, whether you agree with the rules or not, it would be ridiculous for them to just trust we dont allow things which dont follow these rules in to the eu.
    Up to the EU what they import just as it is our choice post-Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    also the european union isnt a country
    In terms of trade, the EU acts as a sovereign state. Individual nations cannot sign FTAs.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    i also dont know why you keep pointing to french agriculture when brexit is more likely to do great harm to our own agriculture sector than the french
    How so? The existing subsidy regime could/will initially be maintained by Whitehall.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    nothing you said actually explains how "none of this relates to the gfa", you just said a statement as if it were fact. id argue that "Removal of security installations" is very much relevant
    your entire suggestion is to shove the burden onto ireland who very much did not vote to have customs checks with rEU
    Customs posts are not security installations. That is obviously referring to military checkpoints in the GFA.

    As for the Republic, if they wish to remain in the EU Single Market and Customs Union then that has its obligations that they will have to follow. Alternatively they could make the calculation that it is better to be outside and have closer relations with its biggest trading partner (Britain). But that is their call. It isn't our fault, it is the choice Ireland has made as another country. Remember, Britain has said it won't install border checks - if anyone installs them, it will likely be the Irish having to install them as a result of EU trade protectionism. Let them sort out that dilemma between themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    the problem with your logic here is the disconnect between the eu and ireland. ireland is part of the eu and allowing any "disallowed" goods through is going to hurt them just as much (if not more) than any other eu country.
    You're making big assumptions here that EU trade policy is completely beneficial and not guided by special interests such as French farmers/unions wanting to protect their expensive produce from outside competition. Cheaper goods and food is a good thing for society/consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    your logic is somewhat flawed in suggesting the EU is undermining it - we started this process so the burden is on us to come up with a workable agreement. if the reverse happened and the EU kicked the UK out (not sure if that would even happen), then the burden would be on them.
    No the burden is not on us once we've left to help EU trade policy.

    The EU is responsible for policing its SM/CU - once we're out we have no more responsibility to it than Russia or Belarus do.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    the eu did also come to us with a solution btw, but we rejected it without suggesting an actual alternative workable for all parties
    By annexing part of our country and forcing us into "regulatory alignment" aka following their laws with no say?

    Imagine suggesting to America that, as part of an FTA, we want them to have Texas be in our Single Market/Customs Union, with the rest of America having to "regulatory align" aka copy our regulations and laws, without any say. No country has *ever* voluntarily accepted such an arrangement.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    i also think its wrong to think that we wouldnt put a border up on the ni/eire border at some point. part of the narrative of brexit is to take control of our borders (which we had complete control over except the ni), so to leave a massive hole unchecked would completely go against this idea of taking back control
    i suspect the only reason people in positions of power are saying there will be no hard border is that they literally do not have the time or money to have it up by brexit day, or they are expecting to kick the can down the road a bit more
    I personally have no issue with a border, after all it already exists in terms of currency, law, infrastructure, government etc.

    In the event of No Deal, the massive spat that's coming between the Republic and the EU is going to be something to behold.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 18-08-2019 at 09:07 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Most people are expecting... you mean most Remainers keep asserting?

    The chicken argument is such a silly argument. Firstly, your water is chlorinated. Secondly, consumer choice. I ate chicken in America and I am still here breathing, tasted the same as any other chicken I have had whether it was British, Indian or Spanish. It's basically washing chicken.

    That's not to say I am all for it being included in a trade deal. What we accept is entirely down to us post-Brexit.



    None of this is unique to the EU. Nor can America make us change our food standards if we do not want to.



    Up to the EU what they import just as it is our choice post-Brexit.
    it doesnt matter what you think is safe/fine etc. or not, the fact is in this hypothetical (which i did assert was hypothetical), these do not meet eu standards. nothing you replied actually addressed that

    just to be clear though, our current government are pushing for a US trade deal so dont say this is anything to do with "remainers"

    In terms of trade, the EU acts as a sovereign state. Individual nations cannot sign FTAs.
    that doesnt make it a state

    How so? The existing subsidy regime could/will initially be maintained by Whitehall.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9058621.html
    https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/15/no-de...bust-10577054/
    https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/eu-refere...no-deal-brexit

    etc

    Customs posts are not security installations. That is obviously referring to military checkpoints in the GFA.

    As for the Republic, if they wish to remain in the EU Single Market and Customs Union then that has its obligations that they will have to follow. Alternatively they could make the calculation that it is better to be outside and have closer relations with its biggest trading partner (Britain). But that is their call. It isn't our fault, it is the choice Ireland has made as another country. Remember, Britain has said it won't install border checks - if anyone installs them, it will likely be the Irish having to install them as a result of EU trade protectionism. Let them sort out that dilemma between themselves.
    do you not see the irony in what you just said

    You're making big assumptions here that EU trade policy is completely beneficial and not guided by special interests such as French farmers/unions wanting to protect their expensive produce from outside competition. Cheaper goods and food is a good thing for society/consumers.
    not if it doesnt adhere to reasonable standards it doesnt
    and as far as ireland are concerned, eu standards are reasonable standards whether you agree with them or not

    No the burden is not on us once we've left to help EU trade policy.

    The EU is responsible for policing its SM/CU - once we're out we have no more responsibility to it than Russia or Belarus do.
    what you replied to has nothing to do with eu trade policy

    By annexing part of our country and forcing us into "regulatory alignment" aka following their laws with no say?

    Imagine suggesting to America that, as part of an FTA, we want them to have Texas be in our Single Market/Customs Union, with the rest of America having to "regulatory align" aka copy our regulations and laws, without any say. No country has *ever* voluntarily accepted such an arrangement.
    the idea of "norway plus" or whatever was floated for years prior to the referendum which would have meant exactly what you just said. pretty sure its something you advocated as well.

    I personally have no issue with a border, after all it already exists in terms of currency, law, infrastructure, government etc.

    In the event of No Deal, the massive spat that's coming between the Republic and the EU is going to be something to behold.
    its irrelevant what you think in what you just replied to

    "ultimately ireland will leave the eu too"
    ok

  3. #13
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    Looks like it is beginning to sink in that we're off.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    it doesnt matter what you think is safe/fine etc. or not, the fact is in this hypothetical (which i did assert was hypothetical), these do not meet eu standards. nothing you replied actually addressed that

    just to be clear though, our current government are pushing for a US trade deal so dont say this is anything to do with "remainers"
    Yes, and my point is that just because something does not meet EU standards does not mean it is bad. EU standards, like many couuntries, are done in a way as to make imports more expensive so as not to allow them to undercut internal producers.

    It'll be up to us what standards we have - surely that is a good thing in a democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    that doesnt make it a state
    It's an attribute of a sovereign state though.

    Nobody can sign FTAs with Germany/France/Poland/Greece - they have to with the EU.

    Rural areas overwhelmingly voted Leave even in the face of absurd scare stories like these.

    Do Australia, Canada and New Zealand have agricultural industries? Or is it only possible inside the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    do you not see the irony in what you just said
    No. Britain decided it wants to make its own laws and sign its own FTAs. The Republic on the other hand seems keen on somebody else continuing to write these rules for them - as well as keeping an open border with Britain. So logically, the Republic should enter into a customs union and join our single market to achieve both these objectives. That would solve their dilemma that is coming straight at them down the tracks.

    But their call. Post-October, it is going to be Mr Varadkar who is being summoned to Brussels to take his orders from ze EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    not if it doesnt adhere to reasonable standards it doesnt
    and as far as ireland are concerned, eu standards are reasonable standards whether you agree with them or not
    Then Ireland are going to have to put up a border, aren't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    what you replied to has nothing to do with eu trade policy
    We have no obligation outside of the EU to protect the EU's SM+CU - am I correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    the idea of "norway plus" or whatever was floated for years prior to the referendum which would have meant exactly what you just said. pretty sure its something you advocated as well.
    Yes years before the referendum.

    But then we had the campaign, and the referendum and the argument changed. After all, it was Remainers who strongly made the case that Norway received laws by fax and had no say or voice around the table. About the only thing they've been right about.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    its irrelevant what you think in what you just replied to

    "ultimately ireland will leave the eu too"
    ok
    Of course, because in 69 days it is going to be the Republic's problem - not ours.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 22-08-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Yes, and my point is that just because something does not meet EU standards does not mean it is bad. EU standards, like many couuntries, are done in a way as to make imports more expensive so as not to allow them to undercut internal producers.

    It'll be up to us what standards we have - surely that is a good thing in a democracy?
    no, your original point was: "Britain, being a developed country, is obviously unlikely to produce poor quality imports. So what is the EU protecting in that scenario?"
    your point of making imports more expensive so as not to allow them to undercut internal producers is true, but it ignores reasons why they would do this
    you then said "Up to the EU what they import just as it is our choice post-Brexit." which is true if your suggestion wasnt allowing a massive back door into the market

    i dont really understand what standards of goods or your original point at all has to do with being a democracy

    It's an attribute of a sovereign state though.

    Nobody can sign FTAs with Germany/France/Poland/Greece - they have to with the EU.
    it also has a flag, which is an attribute of a state
    so does the un
    so does gay pride
    so does earth day

    diamond is made of carbon
    humans are also made of carbon
    humans = diamond

    stop stretching so hard, you might hurt yourself

    Rural areas overwhelmingly voted Leave even in the face of absurd scare stories like these.

    Do Australia, Canada and New Zealand have agricultural industries? Or is it only possible inside the EU?
    australia, canada and NZ do not have significant trade links with the EU which are about to snap in one hit

    No. Britain decided it wants to make its own laws and sign its own FTAs. The Republic on the other hand seems keen on somebody else continuing to write these rules for them - as well as keeping an open border with Britain. So logically, the Republic should enter into a customs union and join our single market to achieve both these objectives. That would solve their dilemma that is coming straight at them down the tracks.

    But their call. Post-October, it is going to be Mr Varadkar who is being summoned to Brussels to take his orders from ze EU.
    maybe they enjoy being in the eu because it means the uk cant steam roll them into doing what they want

    Then Ireland are going to have to put up a border, aren't they?
    ive never suggested otherwise in the event of no deal, but that has nothing to do with the point you were making

    We have no obligation outside of the EU to protect the EU's SM+CU - am I correct?
    the border issue isnt about protecting the eu market

    Yes years before the referendum.

    But then we had the campaign, and the referendum and the argument changed. After all, it was Remainers who strongly made the case that Norway received laws by fax and had no say or voice around the table. About the only thing they've been right about.
    so what youre saying is you changed your mind
    convenient

    Of course, because in 69 days it is going to be the Republic's problem - not ours.
    if you want to throw NI under a bus, sure

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    no, your original point was: "Britain, being a developed country, is obviously unlikely to produce poor quality imports. So what is the EU protecting in that scenario?"
    your point of making imports more expensive so as not to allow them to undercut internal producers is true, but it ignores reasons why they would do this
    you then said "Up to the EU what they import just as it is our choice post-Brexit." which is true if your suggestion wasnt allowing a massive back door into the market
    I don't view it as being a backdoor. I do not care one jot whether the European Union wants its own standards, will accept our standards or wants to protect its market from being undercut - how they decide to police their market is down to them and the Republic of Ireland, but my point is that it is not Britain's job to come up with solutions as to how they do they or even to do it for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    i dont really understand what standards of goods or your original point at all has to do with being a democracy
    Most modern democracies decide their own product standards/trade remits and don't have the EU do it for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    it also has a flag, which is an attribute of a state
    so does the un
    so does gay pride
    so does earth day

    diamond is made of carbon
    humans are also made of carbon
    humans = diamond

    stop stretching so hard, you might hurt yourself
    I talk about the EU acting as a legal personality at the WTO and signing FTAs like most sovereign states do themselves, and you call that stretching... and then go on to talk about the rainbow flag and humans being made of carbon. Stretch Armstrong here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    australia, canada and NZ do not have significant trade links with the EU which are about to snap in one hit
    They have significant trade links with America and China, yet we do not see the American flag next to the Canadian flag at press conferences, they do not accept laws coming from the Chinese Politburo and they do not allow China to set NZ customs duties.

    When will EU supporters like yourself actually admit this fundamental difference between alliances and state-building?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    maybe they enjoy being in the eu because it means the uk cant steam roll them into doing what they want
    Ah yes, those nasty British who protected them in World War II and still provide them with free Naval and Air cover. As compared with those nice Germans and French who made them vote again, and who imposed massive cuts on them over the Euro crisis.

    The sad thing is though, this warped logic is how the southern Irish think. So let them get on with it I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    ive never suggested otherwise in the event of no deal, but that has nothing to do with the point you were making
    So you admit that Britain has no requirement to impose a border?

    Therefore the problem is the EU in regards to the Good Friday Agreement you seem to claim is under threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    the border issue isnt about protecting the eu market
    It 100% is - currently its being dressed up, but that is what it is all about.

    You'll see after Brexit just how quickly Mr Varadkar takes his marching orders from Brussels.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    so what youre saying is you changed your mind
    convenient
    I always said long before the referendum that EFTA and EEA were preferable to current terms, but an FTA was most preferable.

    As it happens I underestimated how nasty the EU could be, so much so that No Deal is now extremely attractive. **** them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    if you want to throw NI under a bus, sure
    Isn't that what the EU wanted to do by trying to annex Ulster from the country to whom it belongs to?
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 22-08-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    I don't view it as being a backdoor. I do not care one jot whether the European Union wants its own standards, will accept our standards or wants to protect its market from being undercut - how they decide to police their market is down to them and the Republic of Ireland, but my point is that it is not Britain's job to come up with solutions as to how they do they or even to do it for them.
    if you dont view it as a backdoor then youre completely deluded

    Most modern democracies decide their own product standards/trade remits and don't have the EU do it for them.
    we are invovled in every step of the negotiating process of any deal, what is it you dont understand about that?

    I talk about the EU acting as a legal personality at the WTO and signing FTAs like most sovereign states do themselves, and you call that stretching... and then go on to talk about the rainbow flag and humans being made of carbon. Stretch Armstrong here.
    my entire point is something being an attribute of something doesnt make it a defining factor

    They have significant trade links with America and China, yet we do not see the American flag next to the Canadian flag at press conferences, they do not accept laws coming from the Chinese Politburo and they do not allow China to set NZ customs duties.

    When will EU supporters like yourself actually admit this fundamental difference between alliances and state-building?
    america and canada arent in a customs union

    Ah yes, those nasty British who protected them in World War II and still provide them with free Naval and Air cover. As compared with those nice Germans and French who made them vote again, and who imposed massive cuts on them over the Euro crisis.

    The sad thing is though, this warped logic is how the southern Irish think. So let them get on with it I say.


    So you admit that Britain has no requirement to impose a border?

    Therefore the problem is the EU in regards to the Good Friday Agreement you seem to claim is under threat.



    It 100% is - currently its being dressed up, but that is what it is all about.

    You'll see after Brexit just how quickly Mr Varadkar takes his marching orders from Brussels.



    I always said long before the referendum that EFTA and EEA were preferable to current terms, but an FTA was most preferable.

    As it happens I underestimated how nasty the EU could be, so much so that No Deal is now extremely attractive. **** them.



    Isn't that what the EU wanted to do by trying to annex Ulster from the country to whom it belongs to?
    ive just realised this is a waste of my time

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    if you dont view it as a backdoor then youre completely deluded
    Again, it is the EU's problem.

    Tell me why Britain should be concerned with protecting EU markets?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    we are invovled in every step of the negotiating process of any deal, what is it you dont understand about that?
    1 of 28 when our economy is equivalent to 19 EU economies put together.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    my entire point is something being an attribute of something doesnt make it a defining factor
    When it comes to trade/customs, the EU acts as a sovereign state. Hence it has a WTO seat and EU countries cannot sign their own FTAs.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    america and canada arent in a customs union
    They're in their own customs unions. Like we should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz
    ive just realised this is a waste of my time
    Well yes, because public opinion continues to shift my way.

    The argument of "Britain is useless and can't do anything itself" coupled with "Brexit=Doomsday" isn't really working for you.
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    no undertaker its because you peddle the same **** over and over and im just bored
    then you also come out with statements like this

    Ah yes, those nasty British who protected them in World War II and still provide them with free Naval and Air cover. As compared with those nice Germans and French who made them vote again, and who imposed massive cuts on them over the Euro crisis.

    The sad thing is though, this warped logic is how the southern Irish think. So let them get on with it I say.
    which is just awful
    like a complete disregard for those in ireland, complete disregard for what ww2 actually happened, a complete disregard for the fact the germans and french didnt make ireland do anything, a complete disregard for the fact ireland actually likes being in the eu and just frankly lunacy
    quite frankly why the hell should irish people give a shit about what the uk did in ww2 anyway, that waas so **** long ago that most of the people from then are dead its been like 70 years let it go

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    no undertaker its because you peddle the same **** over and over and im just bored
    then you also come out with statements like this

    which is just awful
    like a complete disregard for those in ireland, complete disregard for what ww2 actually happened, a complete disregard for the fact the germans and french didnt make ireland do anything, a complete disregard for the fact ireland actually likes being in the eu and just frankly lunacy
    quite frankly why the hell should irish people give a shit about what the uk did in ww2 anyway, that waas so **** long ago that most of the people from then are dead its been like 70 years let it go
    Isn't it interesting that you say I have a disregard for the Republic of Ireland, then in the next breath drone on and on about how Britain should bend over backwards to accommodate politically absurd Irish demands (which is why no government or Parliament will ever accept the backstop) and basically hand them, and the EU, a quarter of your own country on a plate?

    How about having some regards for your own country FOR ONCE and its interests? When will you *ever* put Britain first.
    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 24-08-2019 at 11:24 PM.
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    literally proving my point there undertaker

    nothing i said was anywhere along the lines of anything to do with "irish demands" please either stop making arguments up or improve your comprehension skills

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