British diplomats to pull out from EU institutions within days

[-:Undertaker:-]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gs-within-days

British diplomats to pull out from EU decision-making meetings within days

Critics say No 10 move to quit bloc’s institutional structures leaves UK blindsided

British diplomats will pull out from the EU’s institutional structures of power in Brussels within days, under plans being drawn up by Downing Street.

In an attempt to reinforce the message that the UK is leaving the EU by 31 October, “do or die”, the UK will stop attending the day-to-day meetings that inform the bloc’s decision-making.

The move under discussion is said by UK officials to be in line with Boris Johnson’s first statement in the House of Commons, in which he said he would “unshackle” British diplomacy from EU affairs.

Critics have countered that the symbolic walkout would merely leave the UK blindsided on decisions and ultimately damage the national interest.

EU working group meetings at which British diplomats were expected to take their seats alongside the other 27 member states will deal with issues on security, the pan-European response to any future crises involving civilians, foreign affairs and the protection of consumers interests.

It is unclear how far the UK’s withdrawal from the EU structures would go before 31 October, and whether ministers or the UK’s permanent representative in the EU would ultimately fail to show up for meetings in September and October.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, Dominic Raab, said he would attend a meeting of his EU counterparts at the end of August in Helsinki.

Excellent news.

The date is 31st October, but there's no reason not to begin the process now.

Meanwhile, No Deal is now leading public opinion polls.

Some senior Tory MPs resolutely opposed to no-deal are already privately admitting defeat:

'Inside myself I'm saying I have lost, I have to admit it. It's over. I don't want to be part of it all [the rebel alliance]'

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 12, 2019

[-:Undertaker:-]

For some reason the poll tweet didn't embed properly. Here it is.

"If Johnson unable to make changes to Withdrawal Agreement that enable it to pass Commons before Oct 31 which shd he do?"

Go ahead w/ Brexit even if no deal 46% (+1)

Cancel #Brexit & Remain 29% (+1)

Delay until negotiate deal 12% (-1)

Don't know 14% (-)

Opinium Aug 8 pic.twitter.com/jwCII7XctM

— Matt Goodwin (@GoodwinMJ) August 12, 2019

Meanwhile, the Americans are making it clear they back No Deal.

SIgnificant.
US would 'enthusiastically' support a no-deal Brexit, says top Trump official John Bolton' | via @telegraph https://t.co/qUhnY25wQe

— Christopher Hope📝 (@christopherhope) August 13, 2019

UK 'first in line' for US trade deal, says John Bolton https://t.co/yqdPvlquG4

— BBC News (UK) (@BBCNews) August 12, 2019

[dbgtz]

there have also been many americans saying it wont pass congress without the GFA being upheld
also what hes suggesting is also illegal under wto rules afaik

[-:Undertaker:-]

Already coming together.

I favour sectorial agreements like this as opposed to comprehensive FTAs.

Also in Times tomorrow:

Donald Trump prepared to lift tariffs on steel, aluminium and automotive imports to US if UK reciprocates by lifting tariffs whisky, Harley Davidson etc

Trump and Boris Johnson will sign declaration setting out ‘road map’ to trade deal at G7 summit

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 13, 2019

there have also been many americans saying it wont pass congress without the GFA being upheld
also what hes suggesting is also illegal under wto rules afaik

Nowhere in the GFA does it state that Britain must be governed by EU law/abide by their customs regime forever. A myth.

Anyway, the Republicans only need to win 19 seats in 2020 to win back the House of Representatives.

President Trump would love a fight with the Democrats in 2020 over them blocking a FTA with Britain.

[dbgtz]

Nowhere in the GFA does it state that Britain must be governed by EU law/abide by their customs regime forever. A myth.

never said it did, stop making arguments up

[Zak]

I'm not at all savvy with the GFA. Could someone provide a comprehensive explanation? @-:Undertaker:-; @dbgtz;

The way I see it - with no knowledge on the subject whatsoever:

• We crash out of the EU without a deal
• To protect its markets the EU erect a hard border between N Ireland and Ireland (never understood why they insist Britain do it, as they don't want one)
• This breaks the GFA?

Then we're indirectly breaking the agreement because of a third party.. a little out of our control? Surely this means the EU doesn't give a hoot about preserving the integrity of the GFA

[dbgtz]

I'm not at all savvy with the GFA. Could someone provide a comprehensive explanation? @-:Undertaker:-; @dbgtz;

i'm not going to pretend to be an expert so i shall link this https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users.../synopsis.html which sums it up reasonable well i believe
the main points from this i believe are relevant:

• All members must agree to the principles of non-violence and democracy [in northern ireland]
• Northern Ireland will be governed based on mutual respect and recognition of the European Convention on Human Rights,
• Removal of security installations which are deemed unnecessary, plus a reduction in the British Army presence in the province.

The way I see it - with no knowledge on the subject whatsoever:

• We crash out of the EU without a deal
• To protect its markets the EU erect a hard border between N Ireland and Ireland (never understood why they insist Britain do it, as they don't want one)
• This breaks the GFA?

Then we're indirectly breaking the agreement because of a third party.. a little out of our control? Surely this means the EU doesn't give a hoot about preserving the integrity of the GFA

the eu protects the interest of all member states, which includes protecting the customs union/single market
you cannot enforce the rules of a market if you have a backdoor to said market, which the uk would be i.e. this would allow poor quality imports of goods into the eu which do not meet their standards
saying its the fault of the eu is just passing the blame

[-:Undertaker:-]

Exclusive:

Boris Johnson poised to trigger repeal of European Communities Act as he cements his do or die pledge to leave EU on Oct 31

Stephen Barclay to sign 'commencement order' within days enabling EU withdrawal act to come into force

Eurosceptics say it is 'totemic' moment

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

Steve Baker, leading eurosceptic, on significance of signing order triggering EU withdrawal act on October 31:

'It’s the do or die pledge in black and white. It is not merely symbolic

‘Once it’s signed that’s it, the UK is leaving'

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

the eu protects the interest of all member states, which includes protecting the customs union/single market
you cannot enforce the rules of a market if you have a backdoor to said market, which the uk would be i.e. this would allow poor quality imports of goods into the eu which do not meet their standards
saying its the fault of the eu is just passing the blame

The poor quality imports is partly true, but this is what any country does anyway. Britain, being a developed country, is obviously unlikely to produce poor quality imports. So what is the EU protecting in that scenario? Itself with protectionist trade policy. The European Union isn't the only country guilty of this, every country does so, but lets not skate over the fact that the EU's worst nightmare is for a more competitive and dynamic economic on its border which would undercut protected EU industries such as French agriculture from cheaper and better imports.

In any case to answer @Zak; as you can see, none of this relates to the GFA in terms of undermining it and it is the problem of the EU/Republic of Ireland given they want to protect their own protectionist market. An obvious solution to this is either a customs border is erected (again, not against the GFA) or the Republic of Ireland is given special status where it remains in the EU Single Market and has open flow with the new British Single Market, but it itself would then have to have customs checks with the rest of the EU. Either way, this is an issue for the Republic and the EU to sort between themselves given this problem is due to their own trade policy - not us.

The irony of all this is that in the end, it won't be Britain imposing border checks as we're more free market orientated and understand that European goods are perfectly fine, it is the EU which will force the Republic to impose checks - or will effectively expel it from the SM + CU if it refuses.

[Zak]

i'm not going to pretend to be an expert so i shall link this https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users.../synopsis.html which sums it up reasonable well i believe
the main points from this i believe are relevant:

• All members must agree to the principles of non-violence and democracy [in northern ireland]
• Northern Ireland will be governed based on mutual respect and recognition of the European Convention on Human Rights,
• Removal of security installations which are deemed unnecessary, plus a reduction in the British Army presence in the province.

the eu protects the interest of all member states, which includes protecting the customs union/single market
you cannot enforce the rules of a market if you have a backdoor to said market, which the uk would be i.e. this would allow poor quality imports of goods into the eu which do not meet their standards
saying its the fault of the eu is just passing the blame

Exclusive:

Boris Johnson poised to trigger repeal of European Communities Act as he cements his do or die pledge to leave EU on Oct 31

Stephen Barclay to sign 'commencement order' within days enabling EU withdrawal act to come into force

Eurosceptics say it is 'totemic' moment

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

Steve Baker, leading eurosceptic, on significance of signing order triggering EU withdrawal act on October 31:

'It’s the do or die pledge in black and white. It is not merely symbolic

‘Once it’s signed that’s it, the UK is leaving'

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

The poor quality imports is partly true, but this is what any country does anyway. Britain, being a developed country, is obviously unlikely to produce poor quality imports. So what is the EU protecting in that scenario? Itself with protectionist trade policy. The European Union isn't the only country guilty of this, every country does so, but lets not skate over the fact that the EU's worst nightmare is for a more competitive and dynamic economic on its border which would undercut protected EU industries such as French agriculture from cheaper and better imports.

In any case to answer @Zak; as you can see, none of this relates to the GFA in terms of undermining it and it is the problem of the EU/Republic of Ireland given they want to protect their own protectionist market. An obvious solution to this is either a customs border is erected (again, not against the GFA) or the Republic of Ireland is given special status where it remains in the EU Single Market and has open flow with the new British Single Market, but it itself would then have to have customs checks with the rest of the EU. Either way, this is an issue for the Republic and the EU to sort between themselves given this problem is due to their own trade policy - not us.

The irony of all this is that in the end, it won't be Britain imposing border checks as we're more free market orientated and understand that European goods are perfectly fine, it is the EU which will force the Republic to impose checks - or will effectively expel it from the SM + CU if it refuses.

Thank you for the clarification both of you

So - The EU needs to protect its markets, completely understandable. A border must be erected if an agreement cannot be reached but this in no way Britain's fault. You could argue that by leaving the EU they've caused the issue and they have.. but if it was left up to us there would be no border. So aren't Ireland a little annoyed that the EU will demand a border and undermine the GFA?

All I've heard is that we've got to resolve the Irish border issue.. Shouldn't the EU be coming to us with a solution if it cares about protecting the interests of Ireland? We don't have an issue, in the event of no deal we'd not do anything....?

I'm rambling but I hope that makes sense?

[dbgtz]

Exclusive:

Boris Johnson poised to trigger repeal of European Communities Act as he cements his do or die pledge to leave EU on Oct 31

Stephen Barclay to sign 'commencement order' within days enabling EU withdrawal act to come into force

Eurosceptics say it is 'totemic' moment

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

Steve Baker, leading eurosceptic, on significance of signing order triggering EU withdrawal act on October 31:

'It’s the do or die pledge in black and white. It is not merely symbolic

‘Once it’s signed that’s it, the UK is leaving'

— Steven Swinford (@Steven_Swinford) August 15, 2019

The poor quality imports is partly true, but this is what any country does anyway. Britain, being a developed country, is obviously unlikely to produce poor quality imports. So what is the EU protecting in that scenario? Itself with protectionist trade policy. The European Union isn't the only country guilty of this, every country does so, but lets not skate over the fact that the EU's worst nightmare is for a more competitive and dynamic economic on its border which would undercut protected EU industries such as French agriculture from cheaper and better imports.

this is obviously a hypothetical, but most people are expecting the us to force their food standards on us and the big one here is chlorinated chicken
there are a few reasons why eu countries do not do this, partly down to animal welfare and partly down to the fact that, at least to the eus belief, chlorinating the chicken is just covering up poor quality and leads to greater cases of illness akin to poorly patching a pot hole vs properly retarmarcing the road
theres also the excessive use of growth hormones and other chemicals banned in the EU
in the eu as well, certain foods and drinks have a "protected status" in how it can be named, e.g. you cant make any old cheese in greece and call it "Dorset Blue cheese". the country of origin is also very much labelled on eu products, something which i believe the us has said we would have to drop

those are obviously just some examples from one country, but a country most people seem to be pushing us to have a deal with
and the fact is, whether you agree with the rules or not, it would be ridiculous for them to just trust we dont allow things which dont follow these rules in to the eu.

also the european union isnt a country

i also dont know why you keep pointing to french agriculture when brexit is more likely to do great harm to our own agriculture sector than the french

In any case to answer @Zak; as you can see, none of this relates to the GFA in terms of undermining it and it is the problem of the EU/Republic of Ireland given they want to protect their own protectionist market. An obvious solution to this is either a customs border is erected (again, not against the GFA) or the Republic of Ireland is given special status where it remains in the EU Single Market and has open flow with the new British Single Market, but it itself would then have to have customs checks with the rest of the EU. Either way, this is an issue for the Republic and the EU to sort between themselves given this problem is due to their own trade policy - not us.

The irony of all this is that in the end, it won't be Britain imposing border checks as we're more free market orientated and understand that European goods are perfectly fine, it is the EU which will force the Republic to impose checks - or will effectively expel it from the SM + CU if it refuses.

nothing you said actually explains how "none of this relates to the gfa", you just said a statement as if it were fact. id argue that "Removal of security installations" is very much relevant
your entire suggestion is to shove the burden onto ireland who very much did not vote to have customs checks with rEU

Thank you for the clarification both of you

So - The EU needs to protect its markets, completely understandable. A border must be erected if an agreement cannot be reached but this in no way Britain's fault. You could argue that by leaving the EU they've caused the issue and they have.. but if it was left up to us there would be no border. So aren't Ireland a little annoyed that the EU will demand a border and undermine the GFA?

All I've heard is that we've got to resolve the Irish border issue.. Shouldn't the EU be coming to us with a solution if it cares about protecting the interests of Ireland? We don't have an issue, in the event of no deal we'd not do anything....?

I'm rambling but I hope that makes sense?

the problem with your logic here is the disconnect between the eu and ireland. ireland is part of the eu and allowing any "disallowed" goods through is going to hurt them just as much (if not more) than any other eu country.
your logic is somewhat flawed in suggesting the EU is undermining it - we started this process so the burden is on us to come up with a workable agreement. if the reverse happened and the EU kicked the UK out (not sure if that would even happen), then the burden would be on them.
the eu did also come to us with a solution btw, but we rejected it without suggesting an actual alternative workable for all parties

i also think its wrong to think that we wouldnt put a border up on the ni/eire border at some point. part of the narrative of brexit is to take control of our borders (which we had complete control over except the ni), so to leave a massive hole unchecked would completely go against this idea of taking back control
i suspect the only reason people in positions of power are saying there will be no hard border is that they literally do not have the time or money to have it up by brexit day, or they are expecting to kick the can down the road a bit more