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  1. #1
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    Default British government formally rejects request for second Scottish independence vote

    British government formally rejects request for second Scottish independence referendum

    PM Boris Johnson formally replies to FM Nicola Sturgeon in a letter





    Superb part of the letter that rightly says the British government is "upholding the democratic decision of the Scottish people". The Edinburgh Agreement that the SNP signed was clear as day, that they would respect the outcome of the 2014 vote. Looks like Nicola and friends will have to get back to the day job and actually start running into the ground Scottish schools and hospitals.

    Thoughts?



  2. #2
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    I agree that they shouldn't have the opportunity to hold a second referendum. They had their say years ago and they didn't want independence. There's only one way I'd say they should have one however - if it was decided in parliament that the UK would have a second vote on whether to leave the EU or not, then I would say that Scotland could hold another one. I understand it doesn't work this way, but the way I see it is if the UK had, had another one and then denied Scotland a chance for a second one, then it's basically being hypocritical. However, a second referendum on whether to leave the EU or not didn't happen, so my original point stands in no I don't think they should.

  3. #3
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    I don't get the SNP. Desperate to leave the UK and desperate to join the EU??? Harp on about the 'damage to Scotland' that leaving the EU will cause but quite happy to cause similar damage leaving the UK??? I'm not in favour of an independence referendum for Scotland, once in a generation is fine. If Scotland vote to leave when they next have the chance then so be it. England, Scotland and Wales will continue to have strong ties regardless of any outcome.

  4. #4
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    @Zak;

    Whilst there's certainly a legitimate case for nationalism, the bulk of Scottish nationalism seems to be along sectarian/old religious lines. If you looked at the photographs from the Edinburgh protest the other day, countless flags of the Irish Republic and it all ties into the Celtic vs Rangers in Glasgow. In other word, an anti-English (anti-protestant, anti-royalist) streak runs through parts of Scotland as it does in northern Wales and the Republic.

    The EU point is very strange, I agree. The Union between Scotland and England (and Northern Ireland and Wales) kept Scots Law, distinct Scots courts, and now we have devolution to Scotland, including the subsidies Scotland enjoys as one of the more deprived parts of Britain (like northern England)... whereas in the European Union there is no exception for national law, Scotland would be a contributor, ever closer union instead of devolution and barely anything culturally in common.

    I read on Twitter what the Scottish nationalists write, and it comes across as rather bizarre. Talk of being a colony - literally when Britain was created and including now, it wasn't a case of suppressing Scottish culture and giving English symbolism hegemony. Virtually the entire British identity from the flag, the Royal Coat of Arms, the ceiling in Parliament, the statues on government buildings, military uniform and royal ritual is influenced by/direct from Scotland. There's regiments as far as India, Pakistan and elsewhere that wear the kilt and play the bagpipes for heavens sake. Additionally, if you look at some the greatest builders and merchants of the British Empire they were Scottish or had strong links to Scotland such as David Livingstone and Charles Grant.

    The cultural argument above is much more important in my eyes than the economics, but even the economic balance....






    Last edited by -:Undertaker:-; 15-01-2020 at 02:11 PM.



  5. #5
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    Regarding the below, I have noticed on my visit home last month that all EU flags in Liverpool have now been taken down. Not one left.




  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    @Zak;

    Whilst there's certainly a legitimate case for nationalism, the bulk of Scottish nationalism seems to be along sectarian/old religious lines. If you looked at the photographs from the Edinburgh protest the other day, countless flags of the Irish Republic and it all ties into the Celtic vs Rangers in Glasgow. In other word, an anti-English (anti-protestant, anti-royalist) streak runs through parts of Scotland as it does in northern Wales and the Republic.

    The EU point is very strange, I agree. The Union between Scotland and England (and Northern Ireland and Wales) kept Scots Law, distinct Scots courts, and now we have devolution to Scotland, including the subsidies Scotland enjoys as one of the more deprived parts of Britain (like northern England)... whereas in the European Union there is no exception for national law, Scotland would be a contributor, ever closer union instead of devolution and barely anything culturally in common.

    I read on Twitter what the Scottish nationalists write, and it comes across as rather bizarre. Talk of being a colony - literally when Britain was created and including now, it wasn't a case of suppressing Scottish culture and giving English symbolism hegemony. Virtually the entire British identity from the flag, the Royal Coat of Arms, the ceiling in Parliament, the statues on government buildings, military uniform and royal ritual is influenced by/direct from Scotland. There's regiments as far as India, Pakistan and elsewhere that wear the kilt and play the bagpipes for heavens sake. Additionally, if you look at some the greatest builders and merchants of the British Empire they were Scottish or had strong links to Scotland such as David Livingstone and Charles Grant.

    The cultural argument above is much more important in my eyes than the economics, but even the economic balance....









    just going to poke in here and point out the flaw in your argument in referencing your economic argument for the uk to leave the eu in that "theres a bigger world out there" - if we go by your own arguments also of the increasing of trade %age the uk has with row compared to eu, scottish trade to rUK in 2015 from your graph is ~63% but this decreases to 60% in 2017 (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statist...ESSPublication) whereas eu goes from <16% to >18% and ROW goes from <21% to <22%. so at least if youre going to make economic arguments for staying in a union then be consistent about it or just dont mention it

  7. #7
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    @dbgtz;

    Exactly why I said that this isn't about economics, it is about culture.



  8. #8
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    dont bring up a shit argument on economics then

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbgtz View Post
    dont bring up a shit argument on economics then
    Only repeating the same logic what you and the SNP have been spewing out for the last 4 years.

    Come the 31st January, we'll see whether you were right or wrong about economic collapse.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:- View Post
    Only repeating the same logic what you and the SNP have been spewing out for the last 4 years.

    Come the 31st January, we'll see whether you were right or wrong about economic collapse.
    except i would have kept the same argument and said that its not in their economic interests to leave, youre the one presenting a hypocritical argument.
    Just to be clear as well from 31st jan until at least the end of this year, we are still effectively in the EU and dont you go thinking otherwise

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